The Problem with Carnal Christians

LeadWorship · Aug 31, 2007

Oscarr said:
The definition is simple: Carnality is equated to being ruled by the natural mind and impulses and not being under the Lordship of Christ.

My point exactly! As I have stated. here's where we have our issue:

This describes unbelievers. My view is that if 'believers' start behaving like unbelievers then they are backsliding back into the world and rejecting the Lord Jesus Christ afresh, bringing condemnation on themselves.

Do you think that an unbeliever who is newly saved, but commits the exact same sin, even though they are struggling to do right, isn't acting in the flesh, but just backsliding?

Say I'm an unsaved porn kinda guy. It eats at me everytime I get on the computer. Saturday night I indulge myself into porn. Sunday morning I visit a church with a bud, God touches my heart and I accept Him into it. Yay! I'm saved! I'm a Christian! All week I'm seeing things differently. Then Saturday night comes, I'm alone and I'm at my computer. Inside I know I shouldn't look for porn, but I do, and after an hour or so of indulging myself I feel regret... dirty.

The first saturday I was in the flesh, and the second I was backsliding... is that what you are saying, that there's a difference? I see no difference in this act. It was glorifying the flesh before salvation and it is glorifying the flesh after salvation. Both are the same carnal act, one made by the unsaved, one by a christian.

**edit** This example was poor, as is greatly show in the posts below.

DevotiontoBible · Aug 31, 2007

LeadWorship said:
My point exactly! As I have stated. here's where we have our issue:

Do you think that an unbeliever who is newly saved, but commits the exact same sin, even though they are struggling to do right, isn't acting in the flesh, but just backsliding?

Say I'm an unsaved porn kinda guy. It eats at me everytime I get on the computer. Saturday night I indulge myself into porn. Sunday morning I visit a church with a bud, God touches my heart and I accept Him into it. Yay! I'm saved! I'm a Christian! All week I'm seeing things differently. Then Saturday night comes, I'm alone and I'm at my computer. Inside I know I shouldn't look for porn, but I do, and after an hour or so of indulging myself I feel regret... dirty.

The first saturday I was in the flesh, and the second I was backsliding... is that what you are saying, that there's a difference? I see no difference in this act. It was glorifying the flesh before salvation and it is glorifying the flesh after salvation. Both are the same carnal act, one made by the unsaved, one by a christian.

Growing in holiness is progressive. That means that when you are first born again you don't actually behave holy perfectly, it takes the rest of your life to mature. However, there are some things that must be abstained from immediately when you converted and one of them is sexual immorality. Those who indulge in it will not inherit the Kingdom of God and it doesn't matter if you are Christian or not. The result for ANYONE who practices it is death. The reason you feel bad is because the Holy Spirit is warning you to stop it before you end up eternally dead.

LeadWorship · Aug 31, 2007

Oscarr said:
Therefore, the progression of thought is that if we have a group of so called Christians who want to go their own way and not be led by the Spirit of God in their lives, are they rejecting Jesus as their Lord, and therefore not really Christians at all other than in name only?

How does that strike you?

Yet they were christians to start with, right? They accepted Christ, then years later decided to go their own ways. How about Pastor and Elders and Deacons who are sleeping around in their church? They lead God's people, yet live according to the flesh in areas of their lives, yet in other areas they let follow the Spirit. They are Carnal(some Flesh) Christians (saved by grace). Or is that a poor example?

LeadWorship · Aug 31, 2007

DevotiontoBible said:
Growing in holiness is progressive. That means that when you are first born again you don't actually behave holy perfectly, it takes the rest of your life to mature. However, there are some things that must be abstained from immediately when you converted and one of them is sexual immorality. Those who indulge in it will not inherit the Kingdom of God and it doesn't matter if you are Christian or not. The result for ANYONE who practices it is death. The reason you feel bad is because the Holy Spirit is warning you to stop it before you end up eternally dead.

I wasn't talking about me specifically, but can you back that with scripture? Where does the Bible say those who are sexually immoral will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Why is sexual immorality any worse that breaking the law? I thought sin was sin. Period. So you are telling me that of the many, and I mean MANY, christians who struggle with porn and "self gratification", and who go to God for forgiveness as they work through crucifying the flesh in that part of their lives, that these people will go to Hell? Sounds exactly like what you are saying.

he4rty · Aug 31, 2007

LeadWorship said:
I wasn't talking about me specifically, but can you back that with scripture? Where does the Bible say those who are sexually immoral will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Why is sexual immorality any worse that breaking the law? I thought sin was sin. Period. So you are telling me that of the many, and I mean MANY, christians who struggle with porn and "self gratification", and who go to God for forgiveness as they work through crucifying the flesh in that part of their lives, that these people will go to Hell? Sounds exactly like what you are saying.

I assume this is refering to these verses

Gal 5:19 What human nature does is quite plain. It shows itself in immoral, filthy, and indecent actions;
Gal 5:20 in worship of idols and witchcraft. People become enemies and they fight; they become jealous, angry, and ambitious. They separate into parties and groups;
Gal 5:21 they are envious, get drunk, have orgies, and do other things like these. I warn you now as I have before: those who do these things will not possess the Kingdom of God.

But I read this as the fruits of the unsaved as the next verses go on to say

(Gal 5:22) But the Spirit produces love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
(Gal 5:23) humility, and self-control. There is no law against such things as these.
(Gal 5:24) And those who belong to Christ Jesus have put to death their human nature with all its passions and desires.

So where do we draw the line between the odd hiccup in ones walk or living in the flesh,

DevotiontoBible · Aug 31, 2007

LeadWorship said:
I wasn't talking about me specifically, but can you back that with scripture? Where does the Bible say those who are sexually immoral will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Why is sexual immorality any worse that breaking the law? I thought sin was sin. Period. So you are telling me that of the many, and I mean MANY, christians who struggle with porn and "self gratification", and who go to God for forgiveness as they work through crucifying the flesh in that part of their lives, that these people will go to Hell? Sounds exactly like what you are saying.

I don't say things on this forum unless I can back it with Scripture.

Where does the Bible say those who are sexually immoral will not inherit the Kingdom of God?

Here are a few 1 Cor 6:9,10; Gal 5:19-21; Eph 5:5; Col 3:5,6 There are some more if you want me to give them.

Why is sexual immorality any worse that breaking the law? I thought sin was sin. Period.

No it isn't 1 Cor. 6:18 (NLT)
Run away from sexual sin! No other sin so clearly affects the body as this one does. For sexual immorality is a sin against your own body.

Acts 15:28 lists sexual immorality as what needs to be abstained from immediately when converted.

I thought sin was sin. Period. So you are telling me that of the many, and I mean MANY, Christians who struggle with porn and "self gratification",

Men use the word "struggle" as a misnomer to describe what they do with porn. The word "struggle" means to violently contend against. How much blood have you lost in your struggle against sinning? I bet not even a scratch. It is wrong to use the word struggle instead it better described as indulging the desires of the sinful nature.

and who go to God for forgiveness as they work through crucifying the flesh in that part of their lives, that these people will go to Hell? Sounds exactly like what you are saying.

Why don't we see the Apostles engaged in sexual immorality? Even David committed adultery only once in his life (1 Ki 15:5) and he didn't have the Holy Spirit living in him how much more should a man in the church age put it down once and for all forever? The verses I gave you are clear, they don't say you can practice habitual sexual immorality and ask for forgiveness over and over. They don't say a man can practice this and still have eternal life. That is not the Gospel!. The wages of sin is still death, Jesus did not die on the cross so you can practice sexually immorality and have eternal life.
S=stop
I=it
N=now

LeadWorship · Aug 31, 2007

DevotiontoBible said:
I don't say things on this forum unless I can back it with Scripture.

I thank you for that.

Men use the word "struggle" as a misnomer to describe what they do with porn. The word "struggle" means to violently contend against. How much blood have you lost in your struggle against sinning? I bet not even a scratch. It is wrong to use the word struggle instead it better described as indulging the desires of the sinful nature.

The word struggle is also defined as:
a task or goal requiring much effort to accomplish or achieve.

My use of the word "struggle" was not communicated, so I'll explain here. The struggle I spoke of was the struggle between our flesh and our spirit. When we struggle in this manner, it's rarely blood spilled, but tears spilled. The phrase "easier said than done" is often quoted for a reason. The flesh is weak, and if our spirit is not strong, we will succumb to the desires of the flesh, Christian or not.

Why don't we see the Apostles engaged in sexual immorality? Even David committed adultery only once in his life (1 Ki 15:5) and he didn't have the Holy Spirit living in him how much more should a man in the church age put it down once and for all forever? The verses I gave you are clear, they don't say you can practice habitual sexual immorality and ask for forgiveness over and over. They don't say a man can practice this and still have eternal life. That is not the Gospel!. The wages of sin is still death, Jesus did not die on the cross so you can practice sexually immorality and have eternal life.
S=stop
I=it
N=now

I totally agree with you. I am glad, and thankful, that you have gone to the extent that you did to prove your point. I honestly couldn't agree more. My example was not a confession, as God has delivered me from this disease, but more of a blanket example of Carnality that many Christians deal with, like it or not. Porn, Lust, Sexual Sin the like are claimed by 50% of men and 20% of women in the church on average. (Christianet.com survey) There is a huge need for deliverance from this junk.

I have also realized that you did a wonderful job of proving my example was bad lol. I'll offer up another example shortly, and thanks again for your loving response.

DevotiontoBible · Aug 31, 2007

GodsChild07 said:
A carnal Christian is like a “babe”, who can not handle solid food, or mature revelation.

No it isn't. What you are meaning by "mature revelation" is new and different revelation from the Cannon of Scripture. Instead, meat according to how it is used in Hebrews 5:14 (NLT)
"Solid food is for those who are mature, who have trained themselves to recognize the difference between right and wrong and then do what is right." means to discipline yourself to live according to the revelation that is already provided in the Bible.

DevotiontoBible · Aug 31, 2007

LeadWorship said:
I thank you for that.

The word struggle is also defined as:
a task or goal requiring much effort to accomplish or achieve.

My use of the word "struggle" was not communicated, so I'll explain here. The struggle I spoke of was the struggle between our flesh and our spirit. When we struggle in this manner, it's rarely blood spilled, but tears spilled. The phrase "easier said than done" is often quoted for a reason. The flesh is weak, and if our spirit is not strong, we will succumb to the desires of the flesh, Christian or not.

What you are saying by "struggle" is not Biblical Hebrews 12:4 (KJV)
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

The Bible does not call men to be crybabies about sinning. We are to resist it with every ounce of our life as though there will only be one single person allowed in Eternal Life. Then we will have success.1 Cor. 9:25-27 (NLT)
All athletes practice strict self-control. They do it to win a prize that will fade away, but we do it for an eternal prize. [26] So I run straight to the goal with purpose in every step. I am not like a boxer who misses his punches. [27] I discipline my body like an athlete, training it to do what it should. Otherwise, I fear that after preaching to others I myself might be disqualified.
1 Cor. 9:24 (NLT)
Remember that in a race everyone runs, but only one person gets the prize. You also must run in such a way that you will win.

LeadWorship · Aug 31, 2007

I know there is a split on this. Is there 3 types of people: Unsaved, Carnal Christian, Spiritual Christian? Not according to Paul.

However, my point was not to introduce or even say there was an additional type, but to define what a Carnal Christian is to me. That would be a Christian who sins by fulfilling the desires of the flesh without repentance. Lying, cheating, stealing, etc. We all have sinned. I'd venture to say that we all do still sin. Thank God for His grace and mercy. Sinning doesn't make us a Carnal Christian. Staying in that sin, and not repenting does, imo. It is up to us to pick up our cross, crucify the flesh, and to continue to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling (phil 2:12).

Have you by chance read The Crucified Ones by Charles Newbold Jr? I think you might enjoy it! It's free online at: http://www.meatindueseason.org/newbold/or/crucified/crucifiedtoc.html

I'd love to hear your thoughts on it!

Sorry Oscarr... let's get this topic back on track!

LeadWorship · Aug 31, 2007

DevotiontoBible said:
What you are saying by "struggle" is not Biblical Hebrews 12:4 (KJV)
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

I was using Dictionary.com's version actually:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/struggle

The Bible does not call men to be crybabies about sinning. We are to resist it with every ounce of our life as though there will only be one single person allowed in Eternal Life. Then we will have success.1 Cor. 9:25-27 (NLT)
All athletes practice strict self-control. They do it to win a prize that will fade away, but we do it for an eternal prize. [26] So I run straight to the goal with purpose in every step. I am not like a boxer who misses his punches. [27] I discipline my body like an athlete, training it to do what it should. Otherwise, I fear that after preaching to others I myself might be disqualified.
1 Cor. 9:24 (NLT)
Remember that in a race everyone runs, but only one person gets the prize. You also must run in such a way that you will win.

I said I agreed with you.

DevotiontoBible · Aug 31, 2007

LeadWorship said:
I know there is a split on this. Is there 3 types of people: Unsaved, Carnal Christian, Spiritual Christian? Not according to Paul.

However, my point was not to introduce or even say there was an additional type, but to define what a Carnal Christian is to me. That would be a Christian who sins by fulfilling the desires of the flesh without repentance. Lying, cheating, stealing, etc. We all have sinned. I'd venture to say that we all do still sin. Thank God for His grace and mercy. Sinning doesn't make us a Carnal Christian. Staying in that sin, and not repenting does, imo. It is up to us to pick up our cross, crucify the flesh, and to continue to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling (phil 2:12).

Have you by chance read The Crucified Ones by Charles Newbold Jr? I think you might enjoy it! It's free online at: http://www.meatindueseason.org/newbold/or/crucified/crucifiedtoc.html

I'd love to hear your thoughts on it!

Sorry Oscarr... let's get this topic back on track!

You are not describing a Christian. Paul says a Christian is not carnal: Romans 8:9 (NLT)
But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them are not Christians at all.)

DevotiontoBible · Aug 31, 2007

LeadWorship said:
I was using Dictionary.com's version actually:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/struggle

I said I agreed with you.

Show me where that websites definition has your crybaby definition?

LeadWorship · Aug 31, 2007

DevotiontoBible said:
You are not describing a Christian. Paul says a Christian is not carnal: Romans 8:9 (NLT)
But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them are not Christians at all.)

Which brings us back to Matthew 7:21-23, and what Oscarr was saying and what I was saying. So then I've been proven wrong by incorrectly calling them Carnal Christians. What should I then call them? Those who have been saved, yet still sit on the throne in parts of their lives and have not submitted all areas to God? Lost? Unsaved?

DevotiontoBible · Aug 31, 2007

LeadWorship said:
Which brings us back to Matthew 7:21-23, and what Oscarr was saying and what I was saying. So then I've been proven wrong by incorrectly calling them Carnal Christians. What should I then call them? Those who have been saved, yet still sit on the throne in parts of their lives and have not submitted all areas to God? Lost? Unsaved?

babies!

LeadWorship · Aug 31, 2007

DevotiontoBible said:
Show me where that websites definition has your crybaby definition?

Easy man. Why the hostility. As I said:

LeadWorship said:
The word struggle is also defined as:
a task or goal requiring much effort to accomplish or achieve.

You added the crybaby part. It's definition number 9, under the Noun section:

7.the process or an act or instance of struggling. 8.a war, fight, conflict, or contest of any kind. 9.a task or goal requiring much effort to accomplish or achieve.

LeadWorship · Aug 31, 2007

DevotiontoBible said:
babies!

PRECISELY. They are still saved, yet submit to the desires of the flesh, i.e. carnal desires. You said they weren't Christians.

DevotiontoBible · Aug 31, 2007

LeadWorship said:
Easy man. Why the hostility. As I said:

You added the crybaby part. It's definition number 9, under the Noun section:

You are the one who told me struggle means to cry about it. Is that how you have been taught to show much effort required to achieve things in life is to be a crybaby about it? Wha! Wha!

DevotiontoBible · Aug 31, 2007

LeadWorship said:
PRECISELY. They are still saved, yet submit to the desires of the flesh, i.e. carnal desires. You said they weren't Christians.

You said "a person who sins without repentance". I said that kind of person is not a Christian. But you described another kind of person in #35 that I said was a baby Christian.

LeadWorship · Aug 31, 2007

DevotiontoBible said:
You are the one who told me struggle means to cry about it. Is that how you have been taught to show much effort required to achieve things in life is to be a crybaby about it? Wha! Wha!

Can you show me where I said this please?

What I said was

My use of the word "struggle" was not communicated, so I'll explain here. The struggle I spoke of was the struggle between our flesh and our spirit. When we struggle in this manner, it's rarely blood spilled, but tears spilled. The phrase "easier said than done" is often quoted for a reason. The flesh is weak, and if our spirit is not strong, we will succumb to the desires of the flesh, Christian or not.

I don't appreciate your mocking tone, and your circles that you continue to talk in refusing to listen to what I've said, so I'm done. I will not respond to you on this any further, God Bless.

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