The problem with Bethel/Redding..

[ToBeLoved]

That's gold.



These guys are, according to Wikipedia.

1. Lou Engle (founder of The Call, works closely with International House of Prayer)
2. Mike and Cindy Jacobs (founders of Generals International)
3. Bill Johnson
4. Rick Joyner (founder of Morning Star ministries)
5. John P. Kelly (founder of John P. Kelly ministries and Convening Apostle)
6. C. Peter Wagner (founder of Global Harvest Ministries)
7. Mike Bickle (founder of International House of Prayer)

I can confirm with a reasonable level of certainty, that this list is accurate.

My former church started to affiliate with the NAR, at least for a time. I believe there's a remnant of pro-NAR shrubs still there and they're all huge Johnson, Engle and Bickle fans. For me personally, I know when I'm talking to/hearing someone of that ilk when they use certain buzzwords that are common in their circle.

This looks accurate. There are more. I have it written down at work, but can't add that until Monday.

 

[ViaCrucis]

That's gold.



These guys are, according to Wikipedia.

1. Lou Engle (founder of The Call, works closely with International House of Prayer)
2. Mike and Cindy Jacobs (founders of Generals International)
3. Bill Johnson
4. Rick Joyner (founder of Morning Star ministries)
5. John P. Kelly (founder of John P. Kelly ministries and Convening Apostle)
6. C. Peter Wagner (founder of Global Harvest Ministries)
7. Mike Bickle (founder of International House of Prayer)

I can confirm with a reasonable level of certainty, that this list is accurate.

My former church started to affiliate with the NAR, at least for a time. I believe there's a remnant of pro-NAR shrubs still there and they're all huge Johnson, Engle and Bickle fans. For me personally, I know when I'm talking to/hearing someone of that ilk when they use certain buzzwords that are common in their circle.

It seems to me that one of the more terrifying reaches that NAR has is through IHoP, especially considering the political clout which it has in the US.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Biblicist]

1. Lou Engle (founder of The Call, works closely with International House of Prayer)
2. Mike and Cindy Jacobs (founders of Generals International)
3. Bill Johnson
4. Rick Joyner (founder of Morning Star ministries)
5. John P. Kelly (founder of John P. Kelly ministries and Convening Apostle)
6. C. Peter Wagner (founder of Global Harvest Ministries)
7. Mike Bickle (founder of International House of Prayer)

This is a good list where the only name that I am unfamiliar with is with that of Lou Engle. The organisation that J.P. Kelly runs which is the International Coalition of Apostles was previously overseen by C. Peter Wagner until he handed the reigns back to Kelly after he retired. Wagner provided the NARzie movement with a degree of credibility and he certainly provided it with its foundations.

Up until maybe five years back the ICA under Wagner used to publish their membership list but due to the bad publicity that this movement has received the list was made available only to its members. There is another complication in that there are numerous NARzie groups who are not aligned (one of their buzz words) to each other so it can be hard to keep a eye out for who these individuals are.

 

[Gnarwhal]

It seems to me that one of the more terrifying reaches that NAR has is through IHoP, especially considering the political clout which it has in the US.

-CryptoLutheran

I agree wholeheartedly. IHOP is one of the most disturbing movements I've ever seen. Honestly, I think it's poised to cause more damage than Scientology or Mormonism because so many Christians are unaware of it.

Have you seen God Loves Uganda? It's a documentary filmed by Roger Ross Williams, I think it's on Netflix still. IHOP (along with Lou Engle) are wreaking havoc over there and it wrecks me.

This is a good list where the only name that I am unfamiliar with is with that of Lou Engle. The organisation that J.P. Kelly runs which is the International Coalition of Apostles was previously overseen by C. Peter Wagner until he handed the reigns back to Kelly after he retired. Wagner provided the NARzie movement with a degree of credibility and he certainly provided it with its foundations.

Up until maybe five years back the ICA under Wagner used to publish their membership list but due to the bad publicity that this movement has received the list was made available only to its members. There is another complication in that there are numerous NARzie groups who are not aligned (one of their buzz words) to each other so it can be hard to keep a eye out for who these individuals are.

Lou Engle is a sociopath, I can't describe him any other way. In the documentary I mentioned to @ViaCrucis above, he's one of the main people focused on. He and his minions have been using Uganda as their own sociopolitical sandbox to implement their theocratic ideas. They're almost entirely responsible for the anti-homosexuality bill that was passed in Ugandan parliament which consigns anyone found to be homosexual to life imprisonment and possibly death.

Now, regardless of anyones view on the morality of homosexuality, that's so far past the line that the line isn't even visible in the review mirror anymore.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I've not seen anything good coming out of NAR. The more I look, the scarier it gets. "Grave sucking" is yet any disturbing practice of some NAR folks.

 

[ToBeLoved]

It seems to me that one of the more terrifying reaches that NAR has is through IHoP, especially considering the political clout which it has in the US.

-CryptoLutheran

Did you know that IHOP has a very strong program for young adults called IHOP U. What that program is like for these young adults is overly rigourous. There have been some major problems with that program, one written about a death. I'll share if you would like.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Have you seen God Loves Uganda? It's a documentary filmed by Roger Ross Williams, I think it's on Netflix still. IHOP (along with Lou Engle) are wreaking havoc over there and it wrecks me.

Lou Engle is a sociopath, I can't describe him any other way. In the documentary I mentioned to @ViaCrucis above, he's one of the main people focused on. He and his minions have been using Uganda as their own sociopolitical sandbox to implement their theocratic ideas. They're almost entirely responsible for the anti-homosexuality bill that was passed in Ugandan parliament which consigns anyone found to be homosexual to life imprisonment and possibly death.

Now, regardless of anyones view on the morality of homosexuality, that's so far past the line that the line isn't even visible in the review mirror anymore.

It is a very sad story and that it even has the word Christian associated with it will turn many away from Christ.

I beleive that Uganda was the pilot to see if it worked. I'm pretty sure they have been doing this in other countries after Uganda.

 

[Gnarwhal]

It is a very sad story and that it even has the word Christian associated with it will turn many away from Christ.

I beleive that Uganda was the pilot to see if it worked. I'm pretty sure they have been doing this in other countries after Uganda.

Yes, that's my assessment as well. Most of these lunatics would be prosecuted in any nation that's a part of the developed world for their ideas, not because of any anti-Christian bias in the courts, but because these people's ideas are anti-Christian and entirely criminal. So they take their ideas and they go to Uganda because it's a sandbox ripe where they pretty much have carte blanche to influence an entire country however they want because of how impressionable it is. They, being WASPs from America, completely run amok - no challenges, no obstacles, no questions asked.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes, that's my assessment as well. Most of these lunatics would be prosecuted in any nation that's a part of the developed world for their ideas, not because of any anti-Christian bias in the courts, but because these people's ideas are anti-Christian and entirely criminal. So they take their ideas and they go to Uganda because it's a sandbox ripe where they pretty much have carte blanche to influence an entire country however they want because of how impressionable it is. They, being WASPs from America, completely run amok - no challenges, no obstacles, no questions asked.

The key to that is that NAR believes in dominionism and a restoration of the 10 commandments as the law of the lands. They believe that before 'Jesus will return' in the second coming that THEY have to restore all governments to Old Testament law, including our own.

It's scary

 

[Gnarwhal]

The key to that is that NAR believes in dominionism and a restoration of the 10 commandments as the law of the lands. They believe that before 'Jesus will return' in the second coming that THEY have to restore all governments to Old Testament law, including our own.

It's scary

That's not unlike what ISIS believes they're doing, essentially provoking the end of the world (albeit, an Islamic version of it). Anybody, any group or entity, that believes the onus is on them to instigate the Second Coming doesn't deserve to be credited as Christian.

 

[Disco Volante]

Is Bethel a cult? Maybe. They're so far out there that they had to break away from the Assemblies of God and strike out on their own as a non-denominational church. That's basically like Lex Luthor being cast out of the Legion of Doom because his crimes were too much for them.

Wow, Benny pushed that woman....and the other woman? Scary. Is that a cult?

With my experience with a bethel-centric church. They will definitely express a degree of elitism, or at the very least, clique-iness if you aren't part of their movement or if you disagree with their ideas. I suppose they don't recognize their own bigotry. So yes, it is cult-like. As with any cultish tendencies, they will get defensive and annoyed if you question Bill Johnson or any of their leaders, and it will be very hard for some of them to listen. Something to consider for any church movement really who wishes to claim superiority and Pope-like status. Which oddly this movement has transformed into, maybe it wasn't any good to begin with.

There was very little of the Word in these churches, just their interpretational twisting of it. Are there sincere people trapped within these movments? Yes definetely - and some of the people on those videos are. Infact for a short season, I gave them a shot, liked some things - but began to dislike them more and more as time passed.

I left this church, i believe by the prompting of holy ghost.

Watch out for any of the other movements connected to them umbrellaed under " the New Apostolic Reformation" Ihop, Toronto etc... , i want to address that there are innocent people to walk into these movements too, so don't go demonizing everybody. But hopefully they will be open to listen and not so charmed by the snake.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The key to that is that NAR believes in dominionism and a restoration of the 10 commandments as the law of the lands. They believe that before 'Jesus will return' in the second coming that THEY have to restore all governments to Old Testament law, including our own.

It's scary

Their form of Dominionism is largely a product of the Latter Rain movement of earlier decades, and includes a belief in what they call the "Seven Mountains Mandate". I generally consider regular Dominionism unpalatable because it is such a severe confusion of Law and Gospel and the Two Kingdoms; but what we see in Seven Mountain Dominionism/NAR is, frankly, more disturbing.

NAR has been described by some as the "Christian Taliban" and it's not entirely hard to see why. It is a militant, triumphalist, dominionist, and subscribes to a form of prosperity doctrine further advocating a kind of Christian entitlement to worldly riches and glory.

All that said, I think NAR is a symptom of a larger range of diseases, of a form of American Christianity that has so fundamentally lost sight of the Gospel and the Cross that it hasn't merely adopted a form of Theology of Glory, it has become its biggest champion.

Here's a good way of knowing whether you're hearing a preacher of glory or a preacher of the cross. If you are hearing a preacher talk about what God wants from you, how you can become a better person, how if you try hard enough you can gain favor with God, or if he preaches how God wants you to be happy, or to have good finances, or to have a better job; or if you have a preacher who preaches on any matter of subjects--but not on the cross, you can be certain that you have a preacher of glory and not even a hint of gospel will be present. It's all very fine for a preacher to tell you that you're a sinner, that's preaching the Law and that's important, but if the preacher is preaching the Law without preaching the Gospel, well that's a problem--because chances are that preacher is telling you "Here is what God commands, and you should do it", and stops there, as though we sinners could even hope to be righteous by the Law (St. Paul is very clear that what the Law could not do, namely make us righteous, God did by sending His Son).

There is a Christ-less Christianity out there, and its rampant. It's so rampant and so accepted that it's basically what many just assume Christianity is: a religion of condemnation or a religion of good feelings. Christianity is neither of these things, Christianity is the religion of Jesus Christ crucified and raise from the dead. It begins with Christ and it ends with Christ, the Cross is not just a signpost to a spiritual life up down the road, it is the life, it is the road. Christianity is the via crucis, the way of the cross. (It may be obvious my particular passion for this given what I chose to name myself on this site).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Gnarwhal]

With my experience with a bethel-centric church. They will definitely express a degree of elitism, or at the very least, clique-iness if you aren't part of their movement or if you disagree with their ideas. I suppose they don't recognize their own bigotry. So yes, it is cult-like. As with any cultish tendencies, they will get defensive and annoyed if you question Bill Johnson or any of their leaders, and it will be very hard for some of them to listen. Something to consider for any church movement really who wishes to claim superiority and Pope-like status. Which oddly this movement has transformed into, maybe it wasn't any good to begin with.

There was very little of the Word in these churches, just their interpretational twisting of it. Are there sincere people trapped within these movments? Yes definetely - and some of the people on those videos are. Infact for a short season, I gave them a shot, liked some things - but began to dislike them more and more as time passed.

I left this church, i believe by the prompting of holy ghost.

Watch out for any of the other movements connected to them umbrellaed under " the New Apostolic Reformation" Ihop, Toronto etc... , i want to address that there are innocent people to walk into these movements too, so don't go demonizing everybody. But hopefully they will be open to listen and not so charmed by the snake.

You actually went to Bethel? Where are you from? I live a bit south of Redding and I know a lot of folks from my old church who have gone/do go up there on a regular basis. I agree with what you said here, IHOP too. It's all very dangerous.

 

[ToBeLoved]

..

 

[ToBeLoved]

If anyone really wants to study this go back to when Peter Wagner (NAR) and John Wimber (former Quaker, Calvery Chapel and then started the Vineyard churches) taught together at Fuller Theological Seminary on Church Growth and taught a Sign and Wonders course that was very controversial.

Peter Wagner brought John Wimber to Fuller.

Also and interesting note is that Peter Wagner was the Advisor to Rick Warren on his Graduate Thesis. And Rick Warren went on to the United Nations.

Now that is a rabbit hole.

Think about it..... John Wimber was formerly with Calvery Chapel one of the largest growing churches. Then John Wimber started the Vineyard churches which is the fastest and one of the largest growing churches.

Peter Wagner started NAR which grew to be huge.

Guess they knew church growth from Fuller Seminary

Coincidence?

 

[Disco Volante]

You actually went to Bethel? Where are you from? I live a bit south of Redding and I know a lot of folks from my old church who have gone/do go up there on a regular basis. I agree with what you said here, IHOP too. It's all very dangerous.

I'm from the Bay area, the Pastor in the church i left from in SF, is a Bethel school graduate. I asked him why there wasn't enough of the Word in his sermons - that really flustered him, he told me that wasn't his style.

I went to bethel once, i disliked their elitist attitude.

Random thought - One thing i noticed about bethel is how unusually empowered the females are. Im not anti-female, but it seemed like the women were wearing the pants and had alot of authority, and the men were a bit neutered and disabled. The place felt kinda "girly" to me, like i was in Macy's or something. I actually believe this is a spiritual clue.

Derek prince mentioned that this is a tell-tale sign of witchcraft to see the females take on male roles. No i'm not anti-female. But Biblically the men are the spiritual authority over the women. And if the women started receiving male roles this ordination would become lopsided. I dunno if that sounds "religious" to anybody. But it didn't sit right to me to see the men in that church felt neutered from their God ordained positions.

It was minor red flags like these that got me more and more suspicious.

Lack of Word, Dismissive attitude towards spiritual Warfare, Female dominion, The cultic tendancies of SOZO. Their dismissiveness towards any criticism from outside sources. I'm convinced that the Occult has masquareded as the holyspirit in churches such as these these.
Everybody laying their hands on everybody "imparting" like its ok, (which it isnt)

I myself am a tongue-speaking charismatic, so i ignorantly felt ok i'll give this movement a shot.

The final straw that broke the camels back was Todd bentley. I had no clue that bill was even supporting his weirdo. And to claim that he was "healed" and "better" after his affair. And for them to Re-Ordain him? That was the final red flag.

Yeah Apostle Bill - i disagree. Todd bentley is not fit for ministry even if he was forgiven.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I'm from the Bay area, the Pastor in the church i left from in SF, is a Bethel school graduate. I asked him why there wasn't enough of the Word in his sermons - that really flustered him, he told me that wasn't his style.

I went to bethel once, i disliked their elitist attitude.

Yeah I've noticed that kind of elitism myself. Back when I was a protestant some of my church acquaintances would come to church, then hop in their cars after the service and drive up to Redding to go to a function at Bethel. It disturbed me that people believe they somehow encounter the Holy Spirit more there than anywhere else.

Random thought - One thing i noticed about bethel is how unusually empowered the females are. Im not anti-female, but it seemed like the women were wearing the pants and had alot of authority, and the men were a bit neutered and disabled. The place felt kinda "girly" to me, like i was in Macy's or something. I actually believe this is a spiritual clue.

I noticed that too, I think that's why more women seem to be drawn to the ministry than men. I've known several girls who tout the teachings of Bill Johnson or go to their School of Supernatural Ministry, not many guys though. Maybe one guy for every 8-10 girls.

If you look at their Jesus Culture music ministry, or whatever that group technically is nowadays, the face of that group has historically been women (like Kim Walker).

Derek prince mentioned that this is a tell-tale sign of witchcraft to see the females take on male roles. No i'm not anti-female. But Biblically the men are the spiritual authority over the women. And if the women started receiving male roles this ordination would become lopsided. I dunno if that sounds "religious" to anybody. But it didn't sit right to me to see the men in that church felt neutered from their God ordained positions.

That's an interesting note. I hesitate to make any extreme determinations about professing Christian groups (like they're practicing witchcraft). That being said, it wouldn't surprise me if at least a component of what they're doing up there actually is such.

At what I consider the lowest point of my faith, I went through a charismatic phase and joined a parachurch ministry that's essentially a satellite church affiliated with IHOP. Near the end of my time there, I learned that the woman who was in charge of all the administrative stuff for the ministry is actually a witch and she's barred from attending most churches (but of course, not my former church that got heavily into Bethel for a time). This lady was essentially second-in-command of the "ministry", and yet the guy who ran it seemed utterly clueless about who she really was.

Lack of Word, Dismissive attitude towards spiritual Warfare, Female dominion, The cultic tendancies of SOZO. Their dismissiveness towards any criticism from outside sources. I'm convinced that the Occult has masquareded as the holyspirit in churches such as these these.
Everybody laying their hands on everybody "imparting" like its ok, (which it isnt)

I myself am a tongue-speaking charismatic, so i ignorantly felt ok i'll give this movement a shot.

The final straw that broke the camels back was Todd bentley. I had no clue that bill was even supporting his weirdo. And to claim that he was "healed" and "better" after his affair. And for them to Re-Ordain him? That was the final red flag.

Yeah Apostle Bill - i disagree. Todd bentley is not fit for ministry even if he was forgiven.

It's a tight-knit community, those heretical charismatic groups. IHOP, Bethel, Vineyard, MorningStar Ministries (Rick Joyner), Fresh Fire Ministries (Todd Bentley) - they all are kind of interwoven in some way, and all of them pretty much espouse the same heretical theology.

Fortunately it seems like most of those who aren't drinking the kool aid are fully aware of how treacherous they really are to Christianity and humanity.

 

[Disco Volante]

Yeah I've noticed that kind of elitism myself. Back when I was a protestant some of my church acquaintances would come to church, then hop in their cars after the service and drive up to Redding to go to a function at Bethel. It disturbed me that people believe they somehow encounter the Holy Spirit more there than anywhere else.



I noticed that too, I think that's why more women seem to be drawn to the ministry than men. I've known several girls who tout the teachings of Bill Johnson or go to their School of Supernatural Ministry, not many guys though. Maybe one guy for every 8-10 girls.

If you look at their Jesus Culture music ministry, or whatever that group technically is nowadays, the face of that group has historically been women (like Kim Walker).



That's an interesting note. I hesitate to make any extreme determinations about professing Christian groups (like they're practicing witchcraft). That being said, it wouldn't surprise me if at least a component of what they're doing up there actually is such.

At what I consider the lowest point of my faith, I went through a charismatic phase and joined a parachurch ministry that's essentially a satellite church affiliated with IHOP. Near the end of my time there, I learned that the woman who was in charge of all the administrative stuff for the ministry is actually a witch and she's barred from attending most churches (but of course, not my former church that got heavily into Bethel for a time). This lady was essentially second-in-command of the "ministry", and yet the guy who ran it seemed utterly clueless about who she really was.



It's a tight-knit community, those heretical charismatic groups. IHOP, Bethel, Vineyard, MorningStar Ministries (Rick Joyner), Fresh Fire Ministries (Todd Bentley) - they all are kind of interwoven in some way, and all of them pretty much espouse the same heretical theology.

Fortunately it seems like most of those who aren't drinking the kool aid are fully aware of how treacherous they really are to Christianity and humanity.

2 Thessolonians 9-11

"9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong DELUSION, that they should believe a lie..."

It is God who will send the Delusion, because if that is what they want, God will give them what they want, a delusion.
This is freaky stuff, not merely to be ranted about. Warn those with Love.

I still profess to be a charismatic tho, the Holyspirit still works today, don't care what the cessationists believe. That doctrine is made out of thin air...

 

[jimmyjimmy]

There is a Christ-less Christianity out there, and its rampant. It's so rampant and so accepted that it's basically what many just assume Christianity is: a religion of condemnation or a religion of good feelings. Christianity is neither of these things, Christianity is the religion of Jesus Christ crucified and raise from the dead. It begins with Christ and it ends with Christ, the Cross is not just a signpost to a spiritual life up down the road, it is the life, it is the road.

Well said.

How I wish that I had understood this much earlier in my Christian life; however, as you know, there aren't many who do, so there aren't even many teachers who do. The entrance into Christianity is a cross, and that cross is our death as well as Christ's. Our end is in fact glory, but it comes through death. It comes through a cross.

 

[AGTG]

Is there a list of leaders known to be part of NAR?

Mike Bickle (International House of Prayer/Forerunner School of Ministry)
Bill Johnson (Bethel School of Ministry, Jesus Culture)
Rick Joyner (Morningstar School of Ministry)
Dr. Michael Brown (Fire School of Ministry)

These four men are the biggest threats to the true evangelical church right now. They are, in fact, operating within a very unbiblical and demonic model of authority and submission which essentially has built their ministries through witchcraft, manipulation, and control.

You will note they all have schools of ministry. Why? Because they are desperate to get a hold of young people who have a strong calling on their lives so they can draw them into their pyramid scheme and thereby extend their reach even further when these people embrace their unbiblical model of submission and authority and the pyramid grows exponentially as they will go forth and spread this model over others who are not careful and drawn in themselves by the witchcraft practices.