The Problem of Hell

[Nooj]

Deliberately intending to cause another human to suffer is wrong.

How would you define 'wrong'?

If we want to follow God we will be with Him forever (called Heaven.) If we choose to follow The Satan, we will be with him forever (called "Hell".) Either way, God is giving us exactly what we want, and He is being a complete gentleman.

What if we don't want to follow God or Satan? What if we don't want to be in heaven or hell? Will God give us exactly what we want?

 

[The Penitent Man]

What if we don't want to be in heaven or hell?

Why would anyone choose not to be in heaven?

The only alternative I can imagine would be to exist as an earthbound spirit, like Beetlejuice or Casper.

 

[Nooj]

Why would anyone choose not to be in heaven?

Heaven doesn't seem all that good to me.

The only alternative I can imagine would be to exist as an earthbound spirit, like Beetlejuice or Casper.

How about annihilation. No afterlife at all.

 

[Gracchus]

Show me where it says leprechauns are required to do that.

It says so right here: 339

 

[Eudaimonist]

Why would anyone choose not to be in heaven?

I have a present here in my hands. Do you see how it is all brightly gift-wrapped, with a pretty bow on top? Something really wonderful is inside -- the most amazing present ever! You can't see it yet, but just imagine how perfect it is. I'll bet it seems absolutely perfect to you, now that I've asked you to imagine something perfect.

How could anyone even think of refusing the perfect present? Well...

Are there any strings attached to acceptance of the present?

Are people who don't know about the box, or who decide not to accept it, or who are simply not elected to receive such a box, given another box that will blow up with a tactical nuke?

Is this perfect present not actually so perfect after all? Are there hidden imperfections that one may deduce?

Etc.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Show me where it says leprechauns are required to do that.

It's oral tradition.

 

[The Penitent Man]

Heaven doesn't seem all that good to me.

How about annihilation. No afterlife at all.

Annihilation doesn't seem that good to me.

 

[Jig]

I believe that some human actions are fundamentally and absolutely wrong. To me this means that when these actions are committed they will always be deemed morally wrong regardless of context.

I find such acts like rape and murder always wrong without exception on every occasion every time . This is why I subscribe to absolute morality.

If I held to relative morality, acts like rape and murder regardless if I believe they ought to be wrong cannot be stated to be always wrong. This is because something that is always wrong, is absolutely wrong - which defies relativism.

Under such a subjective system, one would have to admit that there must be some context (currently existent or not) that determines rape and murder to be good actions.

Generally, the one that does not impede upon the rights of others.

Why do you keep making definitive statements like this? Do you really believe that impeding on the rights of others is always wrong? That's an absolute position.

You can't: I've already told you this.

If this is true, then you can't tell me that I don't have the ability to determine what is right and wrong based solely on my own personal beliefs. If I want to believe that it is morally good to rape women, then to me it becomes morally good. Sure my community may punish me but that's not to say my act was morally wrong within my own moral system. Within relativism I should be allowed to define "good" and "wrong" anyway I choose - even if it disagrees with the majority. My definitions can't be said to be absolutely wrong either.

I've already told you that I consider rape by definition, immoral.

And I keep asking you to define "moral". This is an ambiguous term within relativism. You can't claim that rape is always wrong by the very definition of the term "immoral" because its definition includes subjective terms that can carry different meanings.

On this: I should ask you the following - defend how morality can be absolute. You presumably contend it is. So I ask you how can you make such claims.

I can't prove that morality is absolute and you can't prove morality is relative. But that's not my goal. I'm not trying to disprove your position. I'm merely pointing out the implications. Implications that render actions like rape and murder as not always wrong.

Rape however is a forceful act on another human being in spite of their willingness to engage in it. That is why I consider it always wrong in any civilised society.

What about in a uncivilized society?

What of them? This is a diversion. It is possible for anyone technically, to convert to Christianity. But they have to be convinced of Christianity. They have to honestly accept it and the concepts contained within. Millions of Atheists, hindus, Pagans, Muslims, Buddhists, etc have not converted to Christianity - and from their own perspective, for wholly pragmatic and logical reasons.

Yet, some don't. What is your point?

Thanks for showing that our argument goes both ways.

I'm not trying to produce analogies to defend it. Anyway, a quick slash of Occam's Razor deems it more likely than divine creation.

You're using the principal of Occam's Razor here? Abiogenesis would be incredibly complex. Even the simplest possible life form would need several thousand parts come together perfectly from mere chance. How can you say that this is the simpler than saying a Creator created?

Lock them up, or terminate their life as to protect the innocent.

Notice no note of torture.

Not being able to leave a 5 by 7 room for more than a few hours a day IS torture.

Waiting to be executed is a torturous ordeal too. Think of the mental anguish and the physical toll from stress.

 

[Skavau]

How would you define 'wrong'?

Ought not, undesirable. All within the context of considering the implications on others. You?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Annihilation doesn't seem that good to me.

It's preferable to eternal punishment, wouldn't you say? Would a loving God not set the system up so that those who choose not to love him, who choose not to spend eternity with him, can still have a pleasant (or, at least, painless) afterlife?

 

[binbit32]

If you are not going to believe in a just and loving god, then it would be a million times better to be an atheist.

 

[The Penitent Man]

It's preferable to eternal punishment, wouldn't you say? Would a loving God not set the system up so that those who choose not to love him, who choose not to spend eternity with him, can still have a pleasant (or, at least, painless) afterlife?

You hate God that much?

 

[Eudaimonist]

You hate God that much?

Yes, he hates God so much that he would prefer that such a God was loving and kind. It takes an intense hatred to not want God to be evil.

Also, he apparently loves Mankind. This takes great hatred too.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Wiccan_Child]

You hate God that much?

Why is it hateful to wish that God would be loving and merciful towards those are otherwise destined (by his own inaction) to an eternity of suffering?
Indeed, how can I hate something I don't believe exists?

 

[The Penitent Man]

Why is it hateful to wish that God would be loving and merciful towards those are otherwise destined (by his own inaction) to an eternity of suffering?
Indeed, how can I hate something I don't believe exists?

You're obviously a believer. Obviously this matters to you or you wouldn't be posting on CF.

Even the demons believe in God. They tremble at the mention of His Name.

 

[Eudaimonist]

You're obviously a believer. Obviously this matters to you or you wouldn't be posting on CF.

Even the demons believe in God. They tremble at the mention of His Name.

eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Nooj]

You hate God that much?

The question is, how can you love a God who creates Hell?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

You're obviously a believer.

In God? No.

Obviously this matters to you or you wouldn't be posting on CF.

It matters to me, but not because I believe in God. It matters because some people really believe that non-believers will burn for all eternity, and that this is just.

Even the demons believe in God. They tremble at the mention of His Name.

Yes, and the fool has said in his heart there is no god, don't cast your pearls before the swine, etc. The fact remains that I don't believe in God. How you square that up with the Bible is your business; I don't really have any intention of proving my atheism to you.
Now, can we get back on topic?

 

[The Penitent Man]

It matters to me, but not because I believe in God. It matters because some people really believe that non-believers will burn for all eternity, and that this is just.

As an indivudal, this is where I fail you. You're asking me to explain something that no mortal human has the answers to. Out of respect, I will not try some cute little platitude or scripture-passage. There is no pat answer, no easy answer. God is always more qualified to give advice on these matters, so would you not go to Him? Would you not pray for answer?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

As an indivudal, this is where I fail you. You're asking me to explain something that no mortal human has the answers to. Out of respect, I will not try some cute little platitude or scripture-passage. There is no pat answer, no easy answer.

For being honest about that, I give you one internet fist bump.

God is always more qualified to give advice on these matters, so would you not go to Him? Would you not pray for answer?

I did, way back when I was a Christian. I asked him how he could sit back and watch while the world suffered and cried out for help. I got no response. Shortly thereafter, I ceased to be a Christian.