The Problem of Hell v.2

[Skavau]

Anyone on this site who has listened to this and can't admit that you at least understand the concept of hell maybe needs to look in a different direction than the Christian concept of hell. The Jehovah Witness don't believe in hell. They say that a loving God wouldn't send anyone to hell. The Universalist believe in anything and everything. They invite people from all beliefs, the atheist included. This topic has been discussed over and over again but the same core arguments keep surfacing.

So here's the problem.

You're okay, morally with adulating a God that you believe allows for the torture of billions?

How does this not rattle your conscience?

Which means that the unbelievers either refuse to read and study the Christian text and just want to argue for the sake of argument or their belief system is such that the concept of hell will never be a part of their belief system. I can accept that. There are other beliefs and belief systems for you to search. In the meantime why can't you just accept that Christians do believe in hell and that maybe you do not agree but that is their belief system.

I accept that you do believe in hell. I also believe that hell as a concept is at best a revenge fantasy and at worse an evil idea. To me, you are at present literally in favour of my permanent torture.

Do you see how this lowers my opinion of you?

 

[trientje]

Well, there are no inconsistencies or contradictions in my current views as far as I am aware, so I currently have no need to seek out alternatives.



I would hate for a passing lurker to think you had a point.

Gee, what a way to waste your time! You must not be very secure in your beliefs if you have to hang around to make sure someone on this site doesn't get recognized as "having a point".If you are so sure that there are no contradictions or inconsistencies with your current views then why do you have the need to constantly argue about things? Usually people who are secure with their belief system live and let live.

 

[Gadarene]

Gee, what a way to waste your time! You must not be very secure in your beliefs if you have to hang around to make sure someone on this site doesn't get recognized as "having a point".

Of course I am - I am very confident that you don't have a point. You've ably demonstrated as such time and time again.

If you are so sure that there are no contradictions or inconsistencies with your current views then why do you have the need to constantly argue about things? Usually people who are secure with their belief system live and let live.

Not really. If people think other belief systems are harmful/wrong and are confident about it, then they confront them. Exactly what I'm doing now.

Of course, if this is what you really think, then why do you keep needing to publicly defend hell? Maybe you're not really secure in your belief that it's a good thing? Or as ever, does the logic you've used against a detractor not apply to your own beliefs?

 

[trientje]

Of course I am - I am very confident that you don't have a point. You've ably demonstrated as such time and time again.



Not really. If people think other belief systems are harmful/wrong and are confident about it, then they confront them. Exactly what I'm doing now.

Of course, if this is what you really think, then why do you keep needing to publicly defend hell? Maybe you're not really secure in your belief that it's a good thing? Or as ever, does the logic you've used against a detractor not apply to your own beliefs?

I applaud you in your confidence. Carry on.

 

[brightlights]

Skavau, have you had a chance to listen to that lecture?

 

[brightlights]

I listened. Where it falls apart for me is that the sermon is based on the image of God as being separate and apart from His own Creation.

For myself and how I experience God, our very soul is an activity of God. As such, when it comes to our soul because it is an activity of God, and not something separate and apart from God, what God does to our soul, He does to Himself. And one thing God cannot do is to separate pieces of Himself (like our Soul) from Himself. So there is no judgment or separation from God, otherwise God would be judging Himself.


.

Thanks for listening. If this is the case, why do many people feel disconnected or separate from God and others deny his existence altogether?

 

[eckhart]

And even if there were a valid reason that non-believers couldn't be in Heaven, why Hell and not simple annihilation?

Seventh Day Adventists' believe hell is where human souls are destroyed.
And having realised animals do not go to Heaven, are they destroyed as well?

 

[trientje]

Seventh Day Adventists' believe hell is where human souls are destroyed.
And having realised animals do not go to Heaven, are they destroyed as well?

Well, maybe you should speak to a Seventh Day Adventist and learn where they get the scripture to back up their beliefs. As for animals, no one can say what happens to them for it is not clear in scripture. Having just lost a pet and about to loose another I look at it this way. That God is a God of love and anyone his children loves here on earth and any creature he has made he must be trusted to take care of them in some way. If we want to take parts of the bible literally it describes in the bible that Jesus, when he returns is coming back on a horse. So maybe there are animals in heaven. We won't know till we get there. Whatever problems you have concerning hell, maybe you ought to search the word more to find your answers cause any answer given to you on this site doesn't seem to satisfy you. Or maybe you could ask God directly.

 

[eckhart]

Well, maybe you should speak to a Seventh Day Adventist and learn where they get the scripture to back up their beliefs. As for animals, no one can say what happens to them for it is not clear in scripture. Having just lost a pet and about to loose another I look at it this way. That God is a God of love and anyone his children loves here on earth and any creature he has made he must be trusted to take care of them in some way. If we want to take parts of the bible literally it describes in the bible that Jesus, when he returns is coming back on a horse. So maybe there are animals in heaven. We won't know till we get there. Whatever problems you have concerning hell, maybe you ought to search the word more to find your answers cause any answer given to you on this site doesn't seem to satisfy you. Or maybe you could ask God directly.

Thank you. Any scripture to back your idea up?
If animals do go to Heaven, how are they then different from humans that go to Heaven?

 

[trientje]

Thank you. Any scripture to back your idea up?
If animals do go to Heaven, how are they then different from humans that go to Heaven?

I stated that it is not clear what happens to animals. But I have faith that in some way, God takes care of them. scripture to back up what idea? If you are talking about hell. Well in the new testament Jesus talked about hell more than he did about heaven.

 

[Timothew]

Well in the new testament Jesus talked about hell more than he did about heaven.

No, He didn't. I've counted this myself.

 

[trientje]

No, He didn't. I've counted this myself.

Your findings depend on what words you used when searching. Looking up heaven and hell in a concordance would give you contradictory results. This is probably due to the fact that what we refer to as heaven and hell is often spoken of in different terms in the bible. For example, in Luke 16, Lazarus is said to have gone to Abrahams bosom, a meaning for" heaven". Luke 16:22. In John 14:2, Jesus speaks of "His Fathers house" which we would call "heaven". The same is true for hell. the statement used, "Jesus talked about hell more than heaven" refers to the total number of verses devoted to the subject, and not just the number of references to the words "hell". When studying the bible verse reveals verse and its all about context.

 

[Timothew]

Have you counted yourself?
I've heard that saying repeated ALOT. So I checked it out myself. Not by concordance, by paging through the Gospels, and Revelation. Counting up references, tallying them up. Every time hell or heaven was mentioned by Jesus.

It isn't even close, even giving every benefit to "hell" and being strict on "heaven".
It's about 100 to 1.

Jesus talked ALOT about Heaven and barely mentioned Hell at all.

 

[Timothew]

Well in the new testament Jesus talked about hell more than he did about heaven.

I propose that we have a contest.
I will post a quote of Jesus talking about heaven.
Then you post a quote about Jesus talking about hell.
Then we alternate, and see who runs out of fuel first.
Agreed? I'll start

Matthew 5:3
Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven

 

[trientje]

I propose that we have a contest.
I will post a quote of Jesus talking about heaven.
Then you post a quote about Jesus talking about hell.
Then we alternate, and see who runs out of fuel first.
Agreed? I'll start

Matthew 5:3
Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven

"heaven" and "hell" is often spoken of in different terms in the bible. In Luke 16, Lazarus is said to have gone to "Abraham"s bosom. In John 14:2, Jesus speaks of "His Father's house," which we would call "heaven." the same is true of "hell." the statement, "Jesus talked more about hell than about heaven." probably refers to the total number of verses devoted to the subject, and not just the number of references to the words "hell" or "heaven". So as you are going through the bible, are you just looking for the words "heaven" and "hell"?

 

[Timothew]

"heaven" and "hell" is often spoken of in different terms in the bible. In Luke 16, Lazarus is said to have gone to "Abraham"s bosom. In John 14:2, Jesus speaks of "His Father's house," which we would call "heaven." the same is true of "hell." the statement, "Jesus talked more about hell than about heaven." probably refers to the total number of verses devoted to the subject, and not just the number of references to the words "hell" or "heaven". So as you are going through the bible, are you just looking for the words "heaven" and "hell"?

When I went through, I gave "Hell" every possible advantage, and Jesus still talked much more about heaven than hell. I just get annoyed that people keep saying "Jesus talked more about hell than heaven", when it is Not True, and the person claiming it is only repeating something they heard, but haven't checked out themselves.

However you wish to count heravens and hell is okay with me, we can have each have a post to determine if the other's post really related to heaven/hell or not. I mean, it wouldn't be fair to post "I was caught up to the third heaven" as one of the posts where Jesus is talking about heaven, since that was Paul, not Jesus. An instance like that would rightly be disqualified.

So are you up for the contest or not? I understand if you don't want to. I'm thinking of not coming to CF anymore myself.

 

[trientje]

When I went through, I gave "Hell" every possible advantage, and Jesus still talked much more about heaven than hell. I just get annoyed that people keep saying "Jesus talked more about hell than heaven", when it is Not True, and the person claiming it is only repeating something they heard, but haven't checked out themselves.

However you wish to count heravens and hell is okay with me, we can have each have a post to determine if the other's post really related to heaven/hell or not. I mean, it wouldn't be fair to post "I was caught up to the third heaven" as one of the posts where Jesus is talking about heaven, since that was Paul, not Jesus. An instance like that would rightly be disqualified.

So are you up for the contest or not? I understand if you don't want to. I'm thinking of not coming to CF anymore myself.

A

re you sure of your conclusion? The problem of counting is that it isn't enough to study or to find the words. Because in the bible so much about a subject is studied in context. Now as far as Paul goes, God chose him to preach his word. So a Christian, or I should say I understand Paul's teachings as the inerrant
word of God. So it would be natural for a Christian, when Paul talks about heaven or hell or the concept of heaven and hell , to take what he says as the word of God. So you disqualify what Paul said and I don't. So the number I would count would be disqualified by you.

 

[Timothew]

Only because the statement was "JESUS talked more about hell than heaven."
We can include Paul if you wish, it only adds greatly to my count and doesn't do anything for yours.

 

[Timothew]

I've been in discussion with CF management about a disagreement that I'm having with them.

I don't really want to have anything more to do with CF, having informed them at least twice of my view on a certain matter. I will continue to discuss this with you if you want to, but I would rather just leave CF altogether.

 

[trientje]

Only because the statement was "JESUS talked more about hell than heaven."
We can include Paul if you wish, it only adds greatly to my count and doesn't do anything for yours.

To understand what I wrote above. When Paul spoke I understand it to mean the word of God. Because in the bible God chose Paul to speak his word. Now, are you searching the old testament also?