The Problem of Hell v.2

[Gadarene]

I have been speaking scripturally
And using scripture is the same as using solid proof for my faith.

Scripture says the Spirit is a promise to those who believe....
and you only get the Spirit through faith in God...
but you also have to believe in the truth...
therefore its hard as heck even for most believers to be saved

Indicating that the bar is somewhat needlessly high.

Who is this setup really intended to benefit? Suffering humans, or god's ego?

 

[mmksparbud]

Just wondering---What do you, who do not believe in God--believe in??---You can not believe that God created you, that He has a purpose for you, that He has given you abilities and wants you to serve Him by serving others and loving Him and others. So, what's your purpose in life? What is your hopes for after death? We believe after death there will be a perfect and beautiful world where sin, death, illness is no longer. What do you have?--Is it this life, with all it's misery and sickness and then you die and that's it?? Do you live in empty hopelessness?? You may as well have never been born, then. And you want us to believe that your way of thinking is superior to ours? You have nothing, we have everything, hope for the present, help in the present, and hope for our future after we die. We live in the joy of knowing a God that loves us and wants us to be with Him forever in a perfect world. What is your joy--a bottle of Tequila, a romp in the hay, whatever "fun" you can grab for now, as that's all you've got??? We have something to strive for--what do you strive for??

This may not be the topic of this thread--but still, it's the core of the topic.

 

[Going Merry]

Indicating that the bar is somewhat needlessly high.

Who is this setup really intended to benefit? Suffering humans, or god's ego?

Um God views those who put their trust in him as like a jewel. They are rather rare. He takes those for himself. If one would admit they cannot see, hear, and are pretty much paralytic then he can use that kind of person. They are able to forsake themselves and to believe in him fully. Albeit one can be deceived too, so it's important to study as well to have knowledge of the truth. You can believe in Jesus in a blind way and never have met God. It is important to get the Spirit then. Which for me is a very real manifestation and is why I am really stubborn lol. Everyone has their own experiences and thoughts I guess concerning God and how to believe etc. Ah I think it's all so needless.. we are all seeking truth, it's better to admit we can't do it with what he have and somehow ask for mercy.

As far as hell goes it is just the punishment to those who fail to repent and to live holy. Since God is holy he requires it from us. If he was evil then perhaps he would not even care, and perhaps even further then there would be no eternal life for his believers. I know unbelievers view this as unfair but He did send his Son to fulfill that requirement. I believe he took all sin at his baptism, carried it to the cross paying the worlds sin off once and for all. So I believe there is no sin in the world. People who repent recognize how evil they are and believe in that; with a repentant heart to practice good instead of sin. Even though he took care of your sin and my sin and everyones sin, if one doesn't believe then the "promise of the Spirit" isn't given. Which then means you aren't his, so he doesn't take you, and instead that person is also guilty for all of their sin that person did through their thoughts / feelings / actions / words. Thus they get punished for it. Even though it was paid off previously. It's rather sad in my POV. It's also why I am frustrated at like those crazy baptists who put up hate signs and picket fences knowing they also have committed the same sins with themselves. Woo they are going to get judged hardcore

 

[Gadarene]

Just wondering---What do you, who do not believe in God--believe in??---You can not believe that God created you, that He has a purpose for you, that He has given you abilities and wants you to serve Him by serving others and loving Him and others. So, what's your purpose in life? What is your hopes for after death? We believe after death there will be a perfect and beautiful world where sin, death, illness is no longer. What do you have?--Is it this life, with all it's misery and sickness and then you die and that's it?? Do you live in empty hopelessness?? You may as well have never been born, then.
And you want us to believe that your way of thinking is superior to ours? You have nothing, we have everything, hope for the present, help in the present, and hope for our future after we die. We live in the joy of knowing a God that loves us and wants us to be with Him forever in a perfect world.

Our way of thinking is superior because - unlike yours, apparently - it is not dependent on what we necessarily want to be so. What in the world does what I want have to do with reality? How could what I want have any effect on reality beyond the tiny part of it I can influence?

It would be great if there was a fair deity behind it all who wants to give everyone eternal life, but there is no good reason to think so, and me wanting it to be true doesn't change that.

If you don't have what it takes to handle the notion of this life being it, then fine - not everyone can - but there is no reason to assume that everyone else can't or shouldn't.

Personally, if the Christian god does exist, who would damn someone for honestly questioning what he sees and being unable to believe it due to personally finding it inadequate, I would much rather never have been born than end up on the end of his "moral" judgement. If I'm wrong, I plan on being cast into hell with my integrity intact, and I will not simply give in to what feels right, thank you very much.

What is your joy--a bottle of Tequila, a romp in the hay, whatever "fun" you can grab for now, as that's all you've got??? We have something to strive for--what do you strive for??

This may not be the topic of this thread--but still, it's the core of the topic.

Yes, yes, thank you, o loving Christian, for assuming that because the dirty heathens don't have your morals they automatically do the things you disdain. Goodness knows you could have assumed that we do something higher with our limited time, like learn, or teach, or leave a legacy, instead of instantly going for the frivolous stuff.

I'm sure you can find solace in that you plumped for the belief system that promises a helping God throughout life followed by eternal bliss because it's the right thing to do, while the people who willingly choose a belief where they know their fate is nothingness after 80 or so years at best are just being silly hedonists

 

[MrMoe]

Two different gods?

Is this a general worldwide consensus or just a christian belief?

Did you read the rest of the post? and yes most Jews, religious scholars and even atheists would agree they are two different gods. I believe the muslim god is not the god of the bible.

I would very much liked to have replied to you posts Skavau but I still haven't learned how to separate the quotes into sections like you can. and it would be very difficult for me to take on three atheists at once. plus I'm a slow typer. there's a reason I put the word noob under my name.

Anyway, it is unlikely any of us are going to change our opinions based on the conversations we have here.

I have one last question for you Skavau. you say you're an atheist because of lack of evidence. what then would you consider evidence for the existence of god? what evidence do we have to provide for you, in order for you to be convinced of the existence of god?

 

[Elioenai26]

Quite possibly. So? What matters are facts, not opinions.

If you have factual information about a next life instead of idle speculation, then cite it.

Furthermore, what is the relevance of this line of questioning with respect to my original quote?

You say that as if your opinion is a fact. It is not.

 

[Gadarene]

You say that as if your opinion is a fact. It is not.

No, I didn't.

As indicated by "as far as we know". By implication, there is room for error because our knowledge may be incomplete or incorrect. I don't recall claiming that there is definitely nothing after death, only that there is no reason to think there is.

Parse the sentence properly

 

[Elioenai26]

Our way of thinking is superior because - unlike yours, apparently - it is not dependent on what we necessarily want to be so. What in the world does what I want have to do with reality? How could what I want have any effect on reality beyond the tiny part of it I can influence?

It would be great if there was a fair deity behind it all who wants to give everyone eternal life, but there is no good reason to think so, and me wanting it to be true doesn't change that.

If you don't have what it takes to handle the notion of this life being it, then fine - not everyone can - but there is no reason to assume that everyone else can't or shouldn't.

Personally, if the Christian god does exist, who would damn someone for honestly questioning what he sees and being unable to believe it due to personally finding it inadequate, I would much rather never have been born than end up on the end of his "moral" judgement. If I'm wrong, I plan on being cast into hell with my integrity intact, and I will not simply give in to what feels right, thank you very much.

Yes, yes, thank you, o loving Christian, for assuming that because the dirty heathens don't have your morals they automatically do the things you disdain. Goodness knows you could have assumed that we do something higher with our limited time, like learn, or teach, or leave a legacy, instead of instantly going for the frivolous stuff.

I'm sure you can find solace in that you plumped for the belief system that promises a helping God throughout life followed by eternal bliss because it's the right thing to do, while the people who willingly choose a belief where they know their fate is nothingness after 80 or so years at best are just being silly hedonists

I would like to turn your attention to and encourage you to read the Holy Bible. In it you will find answers to most if not all the subjects you claim you are ignorant of.

 

[Gadarene]

I would like to turn your attention to and encourage you to read the Holy Bible. In it you will find answers to most if not all the subjects you claim you are ignorant of.

Already have read it, thanks. Several times.

The Bible contains claims of the afterlife, certainly, but this is not necessarily evidence.

Why should I accept that there is something after death based on sayso?

 

[Skavau]

I have been speaking scripturally
And using scripture is the same as using solid proof for my faith.

No it isn't.

You need to back up claims in scripture with empirical evidence.

At any rate, no-one is challenging you to demonstrate the existence of God or the relevance of the Bible but you are being asked to morally defend the idea that all non-Christians deserve hell.

Scripture says the Spirit is a promise to those who believe....
and you only get the Spirit through faith in God...
but you also have to believe in the truth...
therefore its hard as heck even for most believers to be saved

So doesn't that tell you something is very wrong with the system? That most will fail to reach its standards.

 

[mmksparbud]

Our way of thinking is superior because - unlike yours, apparently - it is not dependent on what we necessarily want to be so. What in the world does what I want have to do with reality? How could what I want have any effect on reality beyond the tiny part of it I can influence?

It would be great if there was a fair deity behind it all who wants to give everyone eternal life, but there is no good reason to think so, and me wanting it to be true doesn't change that.

If you don't have what it takes to handle the notion of this life being it, then fine - not everyone can - but there is no reason to assume that everyone else can't or shouldn't.

Personally, if the Christian god does exist, who would damn someone for honestly questioning what he sees and being unable to believe it due to personally finding it inadequate, I would much rather never have been born than end up on the end of his "moral" judgement. If I'm wrong, I plan on being cast into hell with my integrity intact, and I will not simply give in to what feels right, thank you very much.

Yes, yes, thank you, o loving Christian, for assuming that because the dirty heathens don't have your morals they automatically do the things you disdain. Goodness knows you could have assumed that we do something higher with our limited time, like learn, or teach, or leave a legacy, instead of instantly going for the frivolous stuff.

I'm sure you can find solace in that you plumped for the belief system that promises a helping God throughout life followed by eternal bliss because it's the right thing to do, while the people who willingly choose a belief where they know their fate is nothingness after 80 or so years at best are just being silly hedonists

Well, do not worry--you will not be a part of it, because you do not want to be a part of it. I live in a rose-colored glass world? Maybe, but it is my preference. That makes me silly??---Maybe, maybe not. We will find out eventually. But I will not be laughing at you, I will be sad for what could have been. My reality is that God has answered prayers, not just for me, but for others, even if they are of a different faith. You can call such things coincidence and laugh at those silly Christians for believing in fairy tales. And you're right, I should not have just mentioned the Tequila, that is the source of happiness for some, but not all--there are many atheists who are very good, moral people--I know a couple. We've had lots of great debates. Esp the one about how, though I am a Christian, I've had many harsh trials in my life, a lot of heartache, whereas, he, has had no real problems and basically has sailed happily through life without much trouble. True enough. Then I remembered the old story of the hunter and his servant. The hunter did not believe in God the servant did. The master pointed out that he was the one with the good life, not he--he than shot himself a duck and the servant went after it---when he came back with duck in hand--he told his master--"You have no troubles, cause you already a dead duck!"---Satan hurls his strongest arrows at those that stand the strongest for God. He doesn't have to bother with those that are already lost.

 

[Skavau]

Um God views those who put their trust in him as like a jewel. They are rather rare. He takes those for himself. If one would admit they cannot see, hear, and are pretty much paralytic then he can use that kind of person. They are able to forsake themselves and to believe in him fully.

Why should anyone feel that it is a good thing to forsake their own will and just act as you suggest? Non-Christians have no reason whatsoever to believe God exists nor do they have any reason whatsoever to believe that they are deaf, blind or "paralytic".

They do not deserve punishment for that.

Albeit one can be deceived too, so it's important to study as well to have knowledge of the truth.

So why is it moral for God to punish people who are legitimately deceived?

You can believe in Jesus in a blind way and never have met God. It is important to get the Spirit then. Which for me is a very real manifestation and is why I am really stubborn lol. Everyone has their own experiences and thoughts I guess concerning God and how to believe etc. Ah I think it's all so needless.. we are all seeking truth, it's better to admit we can't do it with what he have and somehow ask for mercy.

You've touched upon the point, but not quite grasped it. We are all looking for truth.

I don't see why people ought to be punished for failing to understand the truth as it is.

As far as hell goes it is just the punishment to those who fail to repent and to live holy. Since God is holy he requires it from us.

Why does Gods supposed "holiness" (whatever that means) require him to set up absurd standards for people to attain salvation?

If he was evil then perhaps he would not even care, and perhaps even further then there would be no eternal life for his believers.[

I daresay that if he was not evil he would not even have hell at all/

I know unbelievers view this as unfair but He did send his Son to fulfill that requirement. I believe he took all sin at his baptism, carried it to the cross paying the worlds sin off once and for all. So I believe there is no sin in the world.

It is unfair and the solution you defend is inept. It requires first people to accept that the sacrifice happened and it also requires people to be willing to annul their moral responsibility and scapegoat it onto a human sacrifice done in their name.

At any rate, I did not ask for this human sacrifice. I was not present. I would have objected if I was. Why should I be bound by it?

People who repent recognize how evil they are and believe in that; with a repentant heart to practice good instead of sin.

How 'evil' do you think everyone is?

 

[Skavau]

Did you read the rest of the post? and yes most Jews, religious scholars and even atheists would agree they are two different gods. I believe the muslim god is not the god of the bible.

I would very much liked to have replied to you posts Skavau but I still haven't learned how to separate the quotes into sections like you can. and it would be very difficult for me to take on three atheists at once. plus I'm a slow typer. there's a reason I put the word noob under my name.

Oh, easy.

It is [ quote] to begin and [ /quote] to end just without the spaces. You put my text in-between the quotes.

 

[Gadarene]

Well, do not worry--you will not be a part of it, because you do not want to be a part of it. I live in a rose-colored glass world? Maybe, but it is my preference. That makes me silly??---Maybe, maybe not.

The problem is it's hypocritical. You are lecturing atheists for the hedonism you perceive their views justify. But there's nothing quite so hedonistic as an eternity of spending time doing pleasurable things vs a lifetime of doing the same (even though the things one enjoys may differ), is it now?

Sorry, but atheists get this a lot - and many of them aren't the dissolute lot they're presumed to be - and when it comes from people whose own belief system promises them far, far more than any atheist could ever hope to have - I and other atheists will quite rightly get hacked off.

We will find out eventually. But I will not be laughing at you, I will be sad for what could have been. My reality is that God has answered prayers, not just for me, but for others, even if they are of a different faith. You can call such things coincidence and laugh at those silly Christians for believing in fairy tales. And you're right, I should not have just mentioned the Tequila, that is the source of happiness for some, but not all--there are many atheists who are very good, moral people--I know a couple. We've had lots of great debates.

Esp the one about how, though I am a Christian, I've had many harsh trials in my life, a lot of heartache, whereas, he, has had no real problems and basically has sailed happily through life without much trouble. True enough. Then I remembered the old story of the hunter and his servant. The hunter did not believe in God the servant did. The master pointed out that he was the one with the good life, not he--he than shot himself a duck and the servant went after it---when he came back with duck in hand--he told his master--"You have no troubles, cause you already a dead duck!"---Satan hurls his strongest arrows at those that stand the strongest for God. He doesn't have to bother with those that are already lost.

You actually debated that, with an atheist? I'd be curious to see what they thought of it.

Produce one hard-luck atheist and looks like everyone's got the same level of data, and your...."hypothesis" is in tatters.

 

[mmksparbud]

He said--"Well. maybe..but I still prefer to be an atheist."--My "hypothesis" is not a general one--just specific to some individuals. There are many that have a miserable life on earth, and then will end up in hell. I have a much loved brother who spend 34 years as a drug addict, sold drugs to children (that's when I really realized he was really gone), he stole to buy drugs, ate out of garbage cans, slept in the streets. My heart broke. He died at the age of 50. All I can do is rely on my belief that God is not only just, but also merciful. I pray He will be merciful to my brother. And He will be merciful to all. He takes everything consideration.

 

[Elioenai26]

Already have read it, thanks. Several times.

The Bible contains claims of the afterlife, certainly, but this is not necessarily evidence.

Why should I accept that there is something after death based on sayso?

Ahh, several times! Do you mind telling me what you think about the teachings of Christ? Especially the sermon on the mount. If you dont want to I understand. But if you dont mind, I would like to know what you think about those things He said.

 

[Elioenai26]

Why should anyone feel that it is a good thing to forsake their own will and just act as you suggest? Non-Christians have no reason whatsoever to believe God exists nor do they have any reason whatsoever to believe that they are deaf, blind or "paralytic".

They do not deserve punishment for that.


So why is it moral for God to punish people who are legitimately deceived?


You've touched upon the point, but not quite grasped it. We are all looking for truth.

I don't see why people ought to be punished for failing to understand the truth as it is.


Why does Gods supposed "holiness" (whatever that means) require him to set up absurd standards for people to attain salvation?


I daresay that if he was not evil he would not even have hell at all/


It is unfair and the solution you defend is inept. It requires first people to accept that the sacrifice happened and it also requires people to be willing to annul their moral responsibility and scapegoat it onto a human sacrifice done in their name.

At any rate, I did not ask for this human sacrifice. I was not present. I would have objected if I was. Why should I be bound by it?


How 'evil' do you think everyone is?

Have you actually sat down and read the Bible all the way through? If so, what is your opinion of it? I would especially like to know what you think of the teachings of Christ. Thank you.

 

[Going Merry]

 

[MrMoe]

Oh, easy.

It is [ quote] to begin and [ /quote] to end just without the spaces. You put my text in-between the quotes.

thanks

could you answer the question I posted at the bottom?

 

[Skavau]

thanks

could you answer the question I posted at the bottom?

What would I take as evidence of the existence of God? Empirical evidence of God or reasoned argument for his existence.