The Problem of Hell v.2

[Elioenai26]

Sin was bestowed upon us.

By our choice. Yes

We were born into it, according to you. Born wretched and commanded to be perfect. An impossible demand with the solution a faith-based one that requires everyone to believe

That's correct. To believe in the One who Is Perfect.

God is literally insisting all of humanity to accept a blood sacrifice that happened in our name years ago and pass our sins onto Jesus so that we may be saved and forgiven. Not only is that an abdication of our moral duty (which is argued is important to God)

It happened in His Name, and yes morality is important to God, and yes it is something that we could not do. But He did it. He did it for us.

And yet, if you're a Muslim then faith is suddenly not a virtue but a vice according to God and anyone who believes that Islam is true will be condemned alongside me.

Faith is virtuous only by virtue of its object. Faith in Christ is virtuous. Faith in anything else is trusting in one's self.

This is a meaningless statement. What is the "glory of God" and why are we held to such mad standards?

God is Holy, and you, like me and everyone else is created in His Image. That is His standard. Anything less and He would not be God.

God made us and shaped our minds. He knew this would happen.

Correct.

This is just a smear and is completely untrue. Indeed, Elioenai if it were true then why is it better to live in some of the most secular and non-theistic nations on the planet such as Norway, Sweden, Finland?

Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people.

Why is "seeking after God" a prequesite for being non-corrupt?

Because only in God, who is the paradigm for morality, do we find deliverance from all that defiles.

 

[UnamSanctam]

This is just a smear and is completely untrue. Indeed, Elioenai if it were true then why is it better to live in some of the most secular and non-theistic nations on the planet such as Norway, Sweden, Finland?

Sweden is rapidly turning into a social-constructivist dystopia, even more so than my native Denmark. Norway is more conservative, but also headed in that direction. Don't know about Finland, seeing as it stands on the crossroad between the rapidly approaching collapse (Sweden) and civilization (Russia)

 

[Skavau]

By our choice. Yes

This is untrue. Man is not a collective. I did not ask for sin to be bestowed upon me. I was born into it even if an individual chose it. I should not be accountable for the acts of other men.

That's correct. To believe in the One who Is Perfect.

So how is it moral for God to allow us to be born into filth and then condemn us for it?

It happened in His Name, and yes morality is important to God, and yes it is something that we could not do. But He did it. He did it for us.

No. I don't accept anyone's desire to commit suicide on my behalf. I find the idea of a human sacrifice abhorrent. I am not held to the standards of a historical sacrifice I would have been duty-bound (as we all would) to prevent. Martyrdom can be brave and for good causes, but no-one ought to be held by any asserted standards the sacrificee asserts.

Faith is virtuous only by virtue of its object. Faith in Christ is virtuous. Faith in anything else is trusting in one's self.

Complete nonsense. Muslims do not trust in themselves. They trust in God and submit themselves to him. That you might think them misled has nothing to do with it. Point is that there are many other beliefs that lead people to God and yet the God you believe in will permit torment upon them for the simple fact they failed to recognise it correctly. That is unjustifiable.

God is Holy, and you, like me and everyone else is created in His Image. That is His standard. Anything less and He would not be God.

Saying "God is Holy" is another mad standard. Also: Why are we held to such mad standards? Simply asserting that his standard exists is not an answer.

Correct.

So then God is entirely responsible, by your own admission. He knew the moment he made us we would have thoughts he did not like and yet went ahead anyway and decided to punish us at birth for it. That is immoral.

Any God that does that is setting people up for a fall. Playing games. Capricious. Not worthy of worship.

Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people.

Fluff.

You did not answer any question. There is no indication whatsoever that atheists do no good deeds. Indeed, there is in fact the opposite hint that secular nations with large amounts of atheists are good places to live in.

Because only in God, who is the paradigm for morality, do we find deliverance from all that defiles.

You answer an assertion with another assertion. There's no reason to believe God is a 'paradigm for morality.'

You'll also need to give some examples of corruption and how only belief in God can deliver people from it.

 

[Skavau]

Sweden is rapidly turning into a social-constructivist dystopia, even more so than my native Denmark. Norway is more conservative, but also headed in that direction. Don't know about Finland, seeing as it stands on the crossroad between the rapidly approaching collapse (Sweden) and civilization (Russia)

They're all doing it very quietly, are they not?

Got any evidence of this at all?

 

[UnamSanctam]

They're all doing it very quietly, are they not?

Got any evidence of this at all?

Very quietly indeed. That, however, does not change the facts. I can point to plenty of evidence of this; the question is whether or not you're going to accept the evidence as such, or just brush them off as "Just setting things right" or some such nonsense.

 

[Skavau]

Very quietly indeed. That, however, does not change the facts. I can point to plenty of evidence of this; the question is whether or not you're going to accept the evidence as such, or just brush them off as "Just setting things right" or some such nonsense.

Nevermind that. Present your case that the Scandinavian secular countries far from being some of the best places in the world, are teetering on the edge of oblivion and while doing so demonstrate that the societal ills you're referring to are direct consequences of non-religious adherence and secularism.

 

[Davian]

Check your local news, newspaper and or television. I think you will find sufficient evidence for man's propensity towards evil displayed therein.

That fails to establish your premise. Do you concede my point?

Is this the first time you've read this verse?????

Are you are or are you not calling me a fool?

 

[Elioenai26]

This is untrue. Man is not a collective. I did not ask for sin to be bestowed upon me. I was born into it even if an individual chose it. I should not be accountable for the acts of other men.


So how is it moral for God to allow us to be born into filth and then condemn us for it?


No. I don't accept anyone's desire to commit suicide on my behalf. I find the idea of a human sacrifice abhorrent. I am not held to the standards of a historical sacrifice I would have been duty-bound (as we all would) to prevent. Martyrdom can be brave and for good causes, but no-one ought to be held by any asserted standards the sacrificee asserts.


Complete nonsense. Muslims do not trust in themselves. They trust in God and submit themselves to him. That you might think them misled has nothing to do with it. Point is that there are many other beliefs that lead people to God and yet the God you believe in will permit torment upon them for the simple fact they failed to recognise it correctly. That is unjustifiable.


Saying "God is Holy" is another mad standard. Also: Why are we held to such mad standards? Simply asserting that his standard exists is not an answer.


So then God is entirely responsible, by your own admission. He knew the moment he made us we would have thoughts he did not like and yet went ahead anyway and decided to punish us at birth for it. That is immoral.

Any God that does that is setting people up for a fall. Playing games. Capricious. Not worthy of worship.


Fluff.

You did not answer any question. There is no indication whatsoever that atheists do no good deeds. Indeed, there is in fact the opposite hint that secular nations with large amounts of atheists are good places to live in.


You answer an assertion with another assertion. There's no reason to believe God is a 'paradigm for morality.'

You'll also need to give some examples of corruption and how only belief in God can deliver people from it.

You spoke several times of what is moral and what is immoral. A universe without meaning does not make allowance for your statements to be meaningful.

 

[Belk]

You spoke several times of what is moral and what is immoral. A universe without meaning does not make allowance for your statements to be meaningful.

It does if you take into account that moral/immoral are human abstractions used to explain the perversity inherent in ourselves that we project onto the universe around us.

 

[Skavau]

You spoke several times of what is moral and what is immoral. A universe without meaning does not make allowance for your statements to be meaningful.

Have you given up completely on defending the eternal torment doctrine?

Never mind if my world-view allows for morality. Your moral view certainly claims it does and you certainly claim to be an adherent to a divine lawgiver.

How do you reconcile that with people being tortured for thought-crime?

 

[KCfromNC]

A universe without meaning does not make allowance for your statements to be meaningful.

A universe without inherent meaning does not imply that nothing in the universe can be assigned a meaning by people living in it.

 

[MrMoe]

It does if you take into account that moral/immoral are human abstractions used to explain the perversity inherent in ourselves that we project onto the universe around us.

Not everyone agrees on what is perversity and what isn't. So what we believe is moral and immoral will be different.

 

[Skavau]

Not everyone agrees on what is perversity and what isn't. So what we believe is moral and immoral will be different.

Okay. This is true in any circumstance.

So what is your point?

 

[MrMoe]

Okay. This is true in any circumstance.

So what is your point?

I thought it was obvious.
Some people believe that capital punshment is justice others believe its legalized murder. All based on what they perceive as "perversity inherent in ourselves." Which side has a meaningful argument? And do I do well to call the other side evil because they don't believe what I believe to be immoral/moral ?

 

[Dave Ellis]

I thought it was obvious.
Some people believe that capital punshment is justice others believe its legalized murder. All based on what they perceive as "perversity inherent in ourselves." Which side has a meaningful argument? And do I do well to call the other side evil because they don't believe what I believe to be immoral/moral ?

In some cases yes, in some cases no. It all matters on the situation and the degree.

 

[MrMoe]

In some cases yes, in some cases no. It all matters on the situation and the degree.

could you give me an example?

 

[Dave Ellis]

could you give me an example?

Well, a wide scale genocide I think would be widely accepted as evil, although the people that are committing it may view it as moral.

 

[Skavau]

I thought it was obvious.
Some people believe that capital punshment is justice others believe its legalized murder. All based on what they perceive as "perversity inherent in ourselves." Which side has a meaningful argument?

Those who can put forth the most convincing argument based on reason.

And do I do well to call the other side evil because they don't believe what I believe to be immoral/moral ?

You can do it if you want.

If you're referring to my attitude on this, I find it quite non-controversial to label people who defend the permanent torment or torture of people based entirely on what they think.

I can think of nothing worse than approving of torment for thought-crime and nothing more trivially moral than to oppose it. I do not accept it committed by people so why should I accept it from anything else?

 

[MrMoe]

Those who can put forth the most convincing argument based on reason.

what if both have a good argument? since every side will say their side has the most convincing argument who gets to decide?

You can do it if you want.

If you're referring to my attitude on this, I find it quite non-controversial to label people who defend the permanent torment or torture of people based entirely on what they think.

who said permanent torment was based entirely on what they think?

I can think of nothing worse than approving of torment for thought-crime and nothing more trivially moral than to oppose it. I do not accept it committed by people so why should I accept it from anything else?

so good and evil are determined by the individual?

 

[Skavau]

what if both have a good argument?

Then the issue is shaded in grey, not black or white. As often as not and perhaps even more so, morality is cloaked in situation and perspective.

since every side will say their side has the most convincing argument who gets to decide?

Those involved in the framework for legislation of civil law will. If it turns out unpopular then in time, it could change.

who said permanent torment was based entirely on what they think?

Many people in this thread. I understand the notion of hell being for the unsaved but I also understand that according to many Christians (including you, I believe) salvation is precluded based on what people don't think. That is to say that if one does not believe Jesus died for our sins and does not accept the sacrifice they will be tormented forever. This makes it the equivalent of thought-crime, an evil only found in totalitarianism and only supported currently by fascists and dictators.

And what's worse is the punishment for said thought-crime.

so good and evil are determined by the individual?

People do decide for themselves what is right or wrong. Societies at large do the same also, though I was not referring to that there.

I was saying that I condemn thought-crime and torture when someone brings an example of a human committing it. Why should I make exceptions for God?