The Problem of God (not Evil).

[phsyxx]

The inconsistent triad centres around the principle that, according to Christianity:

God is omnipotent
God is omniscient
God is all-loving.

And yet evil exists.

Which raises the problem, that if God is all-powerful and all-loving, he would put an end to the evil, so therefore he cannot know - but he does.
Or he cannot do it, but knows - therefore is not omnipotent.
Or he doesn't want to, and therefore is not benevolent.


But, even if a great philosopher finally reconciled the problem of evil once and for all - there remains still ONE final problem.


The problem of God.

It runs as such.
The inconsitent triad needn't have evil as an aspect to make it inconsitent.

Omniscience and Omnipotence, two qualities of God accepted and hailed by Christians the world over, cannot be applied to the Holy Deity.

Why?

Well, this verse by Karen Owens sums up neatly the problem:

Can omniscient God, who
Knows the future, find
The omnipotence to
change His future mind?


Well? Can He?
If God knows at what point he will intervene, does he have the power to change what He will do in the future without knowing what He will do -
thereby restricting his own omnipotence?

 

[RealSorceror]

I think its rather presumptuous to assume that God is omnipotant, omiscient, and omnibenevelant. How do we know that God's power and knowledge are unlimited? How do we know that God is all-good? And who decides what is and isn't good?

 

[elman]

The inconsistent triad centres around the principle that, according to Christianity:

God is omnipotent
God is omniscient
God is all-loving.

And yet evil exists.

Which raises the problem, that if God is all-powerful and all-loving, he would put an end to the evil, so therefore he cannot know - but he does.
Or he cannot do it, but knows - therefore is not omnipotent.
Or he doesn't want to, and therefore is not benevolent.


But, even if a great philosopher finally reconciled the problem of evil once and for all - there remains still ONE final problem.


The problem of God.

It runs as such.
The inconsitent triad needn't have evil as an aspect to make it inconsitent.

Omniscience and Omnipotence, two qualities of God accepted and hailed by Christians the world over, cannot be applied to the Holy Deity.

Why?

Well, this verse by Karen Owens sums up neatly the problem:

Can omniscient God, who
Knows the future, find
The omnipotence to
change His future mind?


Well? Can He?
If God knows at what point he will intervene, does he have the power to change what He will do in the future without knowing what He will do -
thereby restricting his own omnipotence?

The age old limiting of God by His own power. Not new and not persuasive.

 

[elman]

I think its rather presumptuous to assume that God is omnipotant, omiscient, and omnibenevelant. How do we know that God's power and knowledge are unlimited? How do we know that God is all-good? And who decides what is and isn't good?

We each decide what is loving and what is not loving. It is amazing how similar we see things, all of us no matter what culture, not matter what time in history. Two thousand years ago it was a good thing to do to help a person in trouble. It is still the same today.

 

[RealSorceror]

We each decide what is loving and what is not loving. It is amazing how similar we see things, all of us no matter what culture, not matter what time in history. Two thousand years ago it was a good thing to do to help a person in trouble. It is still the same today.

Two thousand years ago, in many countries, it was acceptable to own slaves, beat your wife and children, and cut off people's hands if they stole from you. These are actually still acceptable in some places today.

 

[elman]

Two thousand years ago, in many countries, it was acceptable to own slaves, beat your wife and children, and cut off people's hands if they stole from you. These are actually still acceptable in some places today.

Many unloving acts are acceptable today but we all know they are unloving. That has not changed in at least two thousand years. Being acceptable by a particular society does not make something loving and it does not mean the people involved do not realize it is unloving.

 

[RealSorceror]

Many unloving acts are acceptable today but we all know they are unloving. That has not changed in at least two thousand years. Being acceptable by a particular society does not make something loving and it does not mean the people involved do not realize it is unloving.

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that. Given enough time, I think people will view almost anything as "normal".
Back to the topic at hand, though, I still think there is no reason to assume God is omni-powerful, knowledgable, and loving.

 

[elman]

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that. Given enough time, I think people will view almost anything as "normal".
Back to the topic at hand, though, I still think there is no reason to assume God is omni-powerful, knowledgable, and loving.

It is normal to not help a stranger in trouble. That does not mean it is a loving thing to do to ignor him.

 

[RealSorceror]

It is normal to not help a stranger in trouble. That does not mean it is a loving thing to do to ignor him.

True.

 

[The Nihilist]

"The theology says that God is outside time, and therefore to speak of a future God is nonsense" is the correct answer.

 

[Catholicism]

"The theology says that God is outside time, and therefore to speak of a future God is nonsense" is the correct answer.

Hey you're smart.

 

[elman]

True.

By the way, I agree there is no way I can know if God is limited in power and knowledge.

 

[RealSorceror]

By the way, I agree there is no way I can know if God is limited in power and knowledge.

Agreed. The only way to really know that is for God to actually tell us, or for us to actually be able to study God. In any event, we haven't even proven that what we percieve to be "God" is actually the real deal.

 

[elman]

Agreed. The only way to really know that is for God to actually tell us, or for us to actually be able to study God. In any event, we haven't even proven that what we percieve to be "God" is actually the real deal.

I not only agree with this, but I firmly believe all of us who believe in God are mistaken in our perception of Him and if He exists, He is vastly different from what we think or imagine.

 

[phsyxx]

I not only agree with this, but I firmly believe all of us who believe in God are mistaken in our perception of Him and if He exists, He is vastly different from what we think or imagine.

Erm, yeah, except that assumes that you know that God is not what you expect -
which means that God IS what you expect -
to not be what others who expect Him to be.

If that makes no sense, that's because the answering of the initial post to this thread made no sense, as christian theology claims that God is OMNIFICENT.

In terms of time, Christian theology also states that God acts WITHIN time.

You have also avoided reconciling the problem of evil.

(but I hold you in high regard Elman)

 

[elman]

=phsyxx;31915926]Erm, yeah, except that assumes that you know that God is not what you expect -
which means that God IS what you expect -
to not be what others who expect Him to be.

And to be what I don't expect Him to be. I will only be surprised if I am not surprised.

You have also avoided reconciling the problem of evil.

(but I hold you in high regard Elman)

Thank you. I believe I can reconcile some evil; but you are correct I am unable to reconcile the problem of Evil completely.

 

[Symbrinity]

The inconsistent triad centres around the principle that, according to Christianity:

God is omnipotent
God is omniscient
God is all-loving.

And yet evil exists.

Which raises the problem, that if God is all-powerful and all-loving, he would put an end to the evil, so therefore he cannot know - but he does.
Or he cannot do it, but knows - therefore is not omnipotent.
Or he doesn't want to, and therefore is not benevolent.

If God is omniscient, and you are not, then he might have a reason for allowing evil to exist which you are not aware of.

If God is benevolent, than we must assume that allowing evil to exist is part of his benevolent plan. We may not fully understand benevolance. (Think about the dangers and evils which human parents expose their children to all the time; yet we would not question their love for them.)

[/quote]If God knows at what point he will intervene, does he have the power to change what He will do in the future without knowing what He will do -
thereby restricting his own omnipotence?[/quote]

Time was created by God. As someone else already said, to box God into a past-future frame is to put time above God and not God above time. As the poster has already stated that God is omnipotent, it shouldn't really be a problem to think of God as in control of time and therefore outside of it.

How did evil arrive in the first place? Who created it? THis is a harder question. Anyone ever heard of theory of Tsimstum? God created a vacuum of himself and evil came out of the negative space where he was. A possible theory. I don't know too much about it though.

 

[us38]

If God is omniscient, and you are not, then he might have a reason for allowing evil to exist which you are not aware of.

But god's omnipotent; if there is a specific purpose god is trying to accomplsh, it could do so with out evil. If it couldn't, then it's not omnipotent.

If God is benevolent, than we must assume that allowing evil to exist is part of his benevolent plan. We may not fully understand benevolance. (Think about the dangers and evils which human parents expose their children to all the time; yet we would not question their love for them.)

Again, god is omnipotent. Whatever end is reached with evil could just as easily be reached without it.

Somewhat off-topic, but you should never use parent anologies with god. They always fail miserably. Parents aren't omniscient or omnipotent. God is.

 

[Symbrinity]

But god's omnipotent; if there is a specific purpose god is trying to accomplsh, it could do so with out evil. If it couldn't, then it's not omnipotent.

No one ever said he couldn't accomplish his purpose without evil. If he's omnipotent, he can do anything. He could suboordinate evil to his own will.

Again, god is omnipotent. Whatever end is reached with evil could just as easily be reached without it.

Somewhat off-topic, but you should never use parent anologies with god. They always fail miserably. Parents aren't omniscient or omnipotent. God is.

If human parents are flawed versions of God the father, and yet we can still justify their willing subjection of their children to evil, how much more so then could we justify God, if he is the perfect parent? I think the analogy does hold up in this case.

 

[us38]

If human parents are flawed versions of God the father, and yet we can still justify their willing subjection of their children to evil, how much more so then could we justify God, if he is the perfect parent? I think the analogy does hold up in this case.

No, it doesn't. A parent can't make you instantly understand anything. God can. Parents have to subject you to evils, as there's often no way to learn without them. The same is not the case with god.