The Problem of Free Will

[talquin]

Christians often make the claim that God knows everything. If asked for specifics, they’ll say this includes knowledge about the future (foreknowledge) and that such knowledge is infallible. Christians also often make the claim that man has free will. Upon being asked for specifics, they’ll agree that free will entails the ability to freely make a choice and that up until the time an option is chosen, a different option could have been chosen. At quick glance, these claims may not appear to be in conflict. However, if we dig a little deeper into each of these claims, we’ll see that they are.

Let’s say Fred is faced with a free choice of A or B. He is due to make this choice on Tuesday (day 2). We’ll call Fred’s day 2 A/B choice variable Y. This means prior to day 2, variable Y has no value (or the choice lies in an unmade state), and on day 2, variable Y will acquire a value of either A or B – to be decided freely by Fred.

Given the Christian claim that God has infallible foreknowledge, this would mean God knows infallibly what A/B choice Fred will make when the choice still lies in an unmade state. To gain further clarity on this, it can be asked, “if it were asked on day 1 does God know infallibly what Fred’s day 2 A/B choice will be, would the answer be YES?”. Christians would typically agree.

If asked for further specifics, such as what if Fred chooses something in conflict with what God knows he will choose, Christians will respond with the assertion that Fred will choose whatever God knows he will choose.

So we’ll call God’s day 1 knowledge of Fred’s day 2 A/B choice variable X. If God knows infallibly on day 1 what Fred’s day 2 A/B choice will be, then it follows that X has a static or fixed value of either A or B as of day 1.

We now have three conditions:

1) X (or God's knowledge as of day 1 of Fred's day 2 A/B choice) has a value of either A or B on day 1 and this value is fixed and cannot change. If it is A, it will remain A. If it is B, it willremain B. This follows the assertion that God has infallible knowledge of future events.

2) Y (or Fred’s day 2 A/B choice) receives its value on day 2. Once Y receives its value, it becomes locked. Prior to receiving its value, it could potentially become A or B, as Fred freely chooses A or B. This follows the assertion that Fred has free will or can freely make choices.

3) X is equal to Y. This follows the assertion that whatever Fred chooses is precisely the same as what God knew he would choose.

Not all three of these conditions can be true.

If #1 & #2 are true, then #3 can’t be true, as X wouldn’t be equal to Y, nor would Y be equal to X. Not only would X receive a value at a different point in time than Y, but Y could be assigned a value in conflict with the static value of X.

If #1 & #3 are true, then #2 can’t be true. Fred wouldn’t be able to freely choose A or B, as variable Y would already be defined as being equal to variable X. Christians will often argue that God's knowledge of Fred’s future choice is a function of Fred’s day 2 choice. But this doesn’t hold true if the answer to the question “if asked on day 1, does God know what Fred’s day 2 A/B choice will be?” is YES.

If #2 & #3 are true, then #1 can’t be true. What this means is if variable Y gets its value on day 2, then variable X also gets its value on day 2 and gets the same value as variable Y. It then follows that God can’t have infallible knowledge on day 1 of Fred’s day 2 A/B choice.

Therefore, it is logically impossible for God (or anyone) to have infallible foreknowledge of a yet to be made free choice.

 

[Soul2Soul]

Therefore, it is logically impossible for God (or anyone) to have infallible foreknowledge of a yet to be made free choice.

Can you please offer a definition of foreknowledge?

Thank you.

 

[Albion]

Christians often make the claim that God knows everything. If asked for specifics, they’ll say this includes knowledge about the future (foreknowledge) and that such knowledge is infallible. Christians also often make the claim that man has free will. Upon being asked for specifics, they’ll agree that free will entails the ability to freely make a choice and that up until the time an option is chosen, a different option could have been chosen. At quick glance, these claims may not appear to be in conflict. However, if we dig a little deeper into each of these claims, we’ll see that they are.

Let’s say Fred is faced with a free choice of A or B. He is due to make this choice on Tuesday (day 2). We’ll call Fred’s day 2 A/B choice variable Y. This means prior to day 2, variable Y has no value (or the choice lies in an unmade state), and on day 2, variable Y will acquire a value of either A or B – to be decided freely by Fred.

Christian claim that God has infallible foreknowledge, this would mean God knows infallibly what A/B choice Fred will make when the choice still lies in an unmade state. To gain further clarity on this, it can be asked, “if it were asked on day 1 does God know infallibly what Fred’s day 2 A/B choice will be, would the answer be YES?”. Christians would typically agree.

If asked for further specifics, such as what if Fred chooses something in conflict with what God knows he will choose, Christians will respond with the assertion that Fred will choose whatever God knows he will choose.

So we’ll call God’s day 1 knowledge of Fred’s day 2 A/B choice variable X. If God knows infallibly on day 1 what Fred’s day 2 A/B choice will be, then it follows that X has a static or fixed value of either A or B as of day 1.

We now have three conditions:

1) X (or God's knowledge as of day 1 of Fred's day 2 A/B choice) has a value of either A or B on day 1 and this value is fixed and cannot change. If it is A, it will remain A. If it is B, it willremain B. This follows the assertion that God has infallible knowledge of future events.

2) Y (or Fred’s day 2 A/B choice) receives its value on day 2. Once Y receives its value, it becomes locked. Prior to receiving its value, it could potentially become A or B, as Fred freely chooses A or B. This follows the assertion that Fred has free will or can freely make choices.

3) X is equal to Y. This follows the assertion that whatever Fred chooses is precisely the same as what God knew he would choose.

Not all three of these conditions can be true.

If #1 & #2 are true, then #3 can’t be true, as X wouldn’t be equal to Y, nor would Y be equal to X. Not only would X receive a value at a different point in time than Y, but Y could be assigned a value in conflict with the static value of X.

If #1 & #3 are true, then #2 can’t be true. Fred wouldn’t be able to freely choose A or B, as variable Y would already be defined as being equal to variable X. Christians will often argue that God's knowledge of Fred’s future choice is a function of Fred’s day 2 choice. But this doesn’t hold true if the answer to the question “if asked on day 1, does God know what Fred’s day 2 A/B choice will be?” is YES.

If #2 & #3 are true, then #1 can’t be true. What this means is if variable Y gets its value on day 2, then variable X also gets its value on day 2 and gets the same value as variable Y. It then follows that God can’t have infallible knowledge on day 1 of Fred’s day 2 A/B choice.

Therefore, it is logically impossible for God (or anyone) to have infallible foreknowledge of a yet to be made free choice.

No. What you've done is mount a case against the false notion that Man has unlimited free will .

 

[7angels]

Christians often make the claim that God knows everything. If asked for specifics, they’ll say this includes knowledge about the future (foreknowledge) and that such knowledge is infallible. Christians also often make the claim that man has free will. Upon being asked for specifics, they’ll agree that free will entails the ability to freely make a choice and that up until the time an option is chosen, a different option could have been chosen. At quick glance, these claims may not appear to be in conflict. However, if we dig a little deeper into each of these claims, we’ll see that they are.

Let’s say Fred is faced with a free choice of A or B. He is due to make this choice on Tuesday (day 2). We’ll call Fred’s day 2 A/B choice variable Y. This means prior to day 2, variable Y has no value (or the choice lies in an unmade state), and on day 2, variable Y will acquire a value of either A or B – to be decided freely by Fred.

Given the Christian claim that God has infallible foreknowledge, this would mean God knows infallibly what A/B choice Fred will make when the choice still lies in an unmade state. To gain further clarity on this, it can be asked, “if it were asked on day 1 does God know infallibly what Fred’s day 2 A/B choice will be, would the answer be YES?”. Christians would typically agree.

If asked for further specifics, such as what if Fred chooses something in conflict with what God knows he will choose, Christians will respond with the assertion that Fred will choose whatever God knows he will choose.

So we’ll call God’s day 1 knowledge of Fred’s day 2 A/B choice variable X. If God knows infallibly on day 1 what Fred’s day 2 A/B choice will be, then it follows that X has a static or fixed value of either A or B as of day 1.

We now have three conditions:

1) X (or God's knowledge as of day 1 of Fred's day 2 A/B choice) has a value of either A or B on day 1 and this value is fixed and cannot change. If it is A, it will remain A. If it is B, it willremain B. This follows the assertion that God has infallible knowledge of future events.

2) Y (or Fred’s day 2 A/B choice) receives its value on day 2. Once Y receives its value, it becomes locked. Prior to receiving its value, it could potentially become A or B, as Fred freely chooses A or B. This follows the assertion that Fred has free will or can freely make choices.

3) X is equal to Y. This follows the assertion that whatever Fred chooses is precisely the same as what God knew he would choose.

Not all three of these conditions can be true.

If #1 & #2 are true, then #3 can’t be true, as X wouldn’t be equal to Y, nor would Y be equal to X. Not only would X receive a value at a different point in time than Y, but Y could be assigned a value in conflict with the static value of X.

If #1 & #3 are true, then #2 can’t be true. Fred wouldn’t be able to freely choose A or B, as variable Y would already be defined as being equal to variable X. Christians will often argue that God's knowledge of Fred’s future choice is a function of Fred’s day 2 choice. But this doesn’t hold true if the answer to the question “if asked on day 1, does God know what Fred’s day 2 A/B choice will be?” is YES.

If #2 & #3 are true, then #1 can’t be true. What this means is if variable Y gets its value on day 2, then variable X also gets its value on day 2 and gets the same value as variable Y. It then follows that God can’t have infallible knowledge on day 1 of Fred’s day 2 A/B choice.

Therefore, it is logically impossible for God (or anyone) to have infallible foreknowledge of a yet to be made free choice.

i am not a math major so what you say confuses me a bit but i will do my best. if i miss it please tell me so i can correct any inaccurate statement. thanks.

choice one is basically saying that God already knows the choice fred will make even before he makes it.

2. is basically saying that fred made his choice freely without outside influence.

3. is basically saying that the outcome is already chosen and fred has no choice but to follow the path chosen for him.

what if all 3 choices were possible? it may sound improbable but hey that is what science is built on until more solid evidence shows up.

1. what if as fred comes to a crossroad every time a decision is to be made and has one of two choices to make. what if God made both paths available to fred and no matter which choice is made God has already made outcomes available for both paths and depending upon our choice determines which path we follow. for example, in literature there are stories that the main character has to make a choice but no matter what choice they make the outcome for each decision is already decided. this is the same thing God does with us. God gives us 2 choices and and no matter what choice we choose God already has the reward/punishment already laid out depending upon our choice.

thus we have the ability for fred to make a free will choice and God already knows what will happen no matter which choice is made. at the same time there are only 2 choices to choose from and not a million choices at one time even though sometimes it seems like we make a bunch of decisions at once. for example you go to an ice cream parlor and are asked what you want. there are a bunch of choices but you can only answer one at a time but not necessarily in the order they come up in.

God bless

 

[Albion]

i am not a math major so what you say confuses me a bit but i will do my best. if i miss it please tell me so i can correct any inaccurate statement. thanks.

choice one is basically saying that God already knows the choice fred will make even before he makes it.

2. is basically saying that fred made his choice freely without outside influence.

3. is basically saying that the outcome is already chosen and fred has no choice but to follow the path chosen for him.

what if all 3 choices were possible? it may sound improbable but hey that is what science is built on until more solid evidence shows up.

1. what if as fred comes to a crossroad every time a decision is to be made and has one of two choices to make. what if God made both paths available to fred and no matter which choice is made God has already made outcomes available for both paths and depending upon our choice determines which path we follow. for example, in literature there are stories that the main character has to make a choice but no matter what choice they make the outcome for each decision is already decided. this is the same thing God does with us. God gives us 2 choices and and no matter what choice we choose God already has the reward/punishment already laid out depending upon our choice.

thus we have the ability for fred to make a free will choice and God already knows what will happen no matter which choice is made. at the same time there are only 2 choices to choose from and not a million choices at one time even though sometimes it seems like we make a bunch of decisions at once. for example you go to an ice cream parlor and are asked what you want. there are a bunch of choices but you can only answer one at a time but not necessarily in the order they come up in.

God bless

I appreciate your logical way of thinking, but it's all "cart before the horse" since no one has shown that Fred HAS free will.

To be fair, however, I am speaking only of the choice Fred supposedly makes, or doesn't, of God. That's the key issue with free will, not ordinary, daily, decision-making.

 

[7angels]

I appreciate your logical way of thinking, but it's all "cart before the horse" since no one has shown that Fred HAS free will.

To be fair, however, I am speaking only of the choice Fred supposedly makes, or doesn't, of God. That's the key issue with free will, not ordinary, daily, decision-making.

i am referring to every choice. it matters not whether it is ordinary, daily or whatever. fred still chooses what direction his life will follow.

btw what exactly is free will to you? if a person is allowed to make decisions for himself then it is free will. how do you define it so we can move forward with this discussion.

God bless

 

[talquin]

Can you please offer a definition of foreknowledge?

Thank you.

Thanks for asking. It means at times prior to when item Y (Fred's choice) is going to occur, X (knowledge of Fred's choice) has a truth value.

 

[talquin]

No. What you've done is mount a case against the false notion that Man has unlimited free will .

Let's say you're faced with the choice of A or B. You choose B. Up until the time you selected option B, could you still have selected option A?

 

[talquin]

i am not a math major so what you say confuses me a bit but i will do my best. if i miss it please tell me so i can correct any inaccurate statement. thanks.

choice one is basically saying that God already knows the choice fred will make even before he makes it.

2. is basically saying that fred made his choice freely without outside influence.

3. is basically saying that the outcome is already chosen and fred has no choice but to follow the path chosen for him.

what if all 3 choices were possible? it may sound improbable but hey that is what science is built on until more solid evidence shows up.

1. what if as fred comes to a crossroad every time a decision is to be made and has one of two choices to make. what if God made both paths available to fred and no matter which choice is made God has already made outcomes available for both paths and depending upon our choice determines which path we follow. for example, in literature there are stories that the main character has to make a choice but no matter what choice they make the outcome for each decision is already decided. this is the same thing God does with us. God gives us 2 choices and and no matter what choice we choose God already has the reward/punishment already laid out depending upon our choice.

thus we have the ability for fred to make a free will choice and God already knows what will happen no matter which choice is made. at the same time there are only 2 choices to choose from and not a million choices at one time even though sometimes it seems like we make a bunch of decisions at once. for example you go to an ice cream parlor and are asked what you want. there are a bunch of choices but you can only answer one at a time but not necessarily in the order they come up in.

God bless

If God knows all the outcomes of all the possible choices, and doesn't know what Fred will choose, then he doesn't have infallible knowledge of Fred's choice - meaning #1 isn't applicable.

 

[talquin]

I appreciate your logical way of thinking, but it's all "cart before the horse" since no one has shown that Fred HAS free will.

To be fair, however, I am speaking only of the choice Fred supposedly makes, or doesn't, of God. That's the key issue with free will, not ordinary, daily, decision-making.

Seems you missed this part:

Upon being asked for specifics, they’ll agree that free will entails the ability to freely make a choice and that up until the time an option is chosen, a different option could have been chosen. At quick glance, these claims may not appear to be in conflict.

 

[juvenissun]

So we’ll call God’s day 1 knowledge of Fred’s day 2 A/B choice variable X. If God knows infallibly on day 1 what Fred’s day 2 A/B choice will be, then it follows that X has a static or fixed value of either A or B as of day 1.

You can not do that. God KNOWS. This is the assumption and is not a variable. So, X is always 1.

You can not treat X as a variable. It is a constant, and is 1. This is assumed right from the beginning.

So, the rest of your argument is invalid.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Yes, man has free will.



"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will (choose to) serve the Lord." (Joshua 24:15)

God knows what he himself is going to do in the future ( and of course our response to it would be very predictable). He gives us the freedom to choose what we will do.

God macro-manages history, we get to micro-manage our own lives.

 

[talquin]

You can not do that. God KNOWS. This is the assumption and is not a variable. So, X is always 1.

You can not treat X as a variable. It is a constant, and is 1. This is assumed right from the beginning.

So, the rest of your argument is invalid.

If on day 1, it were asked, "does know what Fred's day 2 a/b choice will be?", would the answer be "Yes"? If so, then it follows that it has a truth value as of day 1 - meaning that is has a value of A or a value of B.

If not, then at what point in OUR timeline, does God's knowledge of Fred's day 2 A/B choice acquire a truth value?

 

[talquin]

Yes, man has free will.



"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will (choose to) serve the Lord." (Joshua 24:15)

God knows what he himself is going to do in the future ( and of course our response to it would be very predictable). He gives us the freedom to choose what we will do.

God macro-manages history, we get to micro-manage our own lives.

Let's say God knows he is going to send you to hell. He then changes his mind and sends you to heaven instead. What does that do to his knowledge that he would send you to hell?

 

[Albion]

Let's say God knows he is going to send you to hell. He then changes his mind and sends you to heaven instead. What does that do to his knowledge that he would send you to hell?

Why would I suppose that God isn't sure of what he should do?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Let's say God knows he is going to send you to hell. He then changes his mind and sends you to heaven instead. What does that do to his knowledge that he would send you to hell?

Why wouldn't God allow himself the freedom change his mind? Remember the incident where the King vowed he would sacrifice the first person that came through the door, and thus killed his own innocent daughter. Lesson: Don't paint yourself into a corner.

 

[talquin]

Why would I suppose that God isn't sure of what he should do?

Do you believe that God knows everything?

 

[talquin]

Why wouldn't God allow himself the freedom change his mind? Remember the incident where the King vowed he would sacrifice the first person that came through the door, and thus killed his own innocent daughter. Lesson: Don't paint yourself into a corner.

If he has the freedom to choose A or B, then how could he have infallible knowledge of his choice prior to his choosing?

 

[Albion]

Do you believe that God knows everything?

That would seem likely, wouldn't it?

If a being who always has existed, created everything out of nothing, is unlimited in power, and etc. doesn't know his own mind or coming events, the idea of God is called into question, don't you think?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

If he has the freedom to choose A or B, then how could he have infallible knowledge of his choice prior to his choosing?

God knows what is going to happen in the future because he is going to make it happen. If he decides to change his plans he has that freedom. God only paints himself into a corner regarding his overall purpose, to restore his kingdom. While his purpose remains fixed the means of attaining it might change, in certain cases. For example he may grant a leader, or a nation, additional time to repent lest he brings destruction upon them.

America is badly in need of such a revival.