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The Problem of Free Will

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GrowingSmaller

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Lets say for any x it is either necessary or contingent. The former and non - x is impossibble, and the later and non x is really possible. The necessity or ccontingency of x is philsophical rather than scientific, therefore not open to testing. So we have endless debates, about what is really "word play". Even for God, I am not sure He can solve this one.

In Islam God knows 'what people advance and what they leave behind' which IMO may be the something like light cone of their actions, in that i in one sense advance this message to you, and in another sense it is a vestige of my activity...
 
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juvenissun

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Please answer this question:

Let's say Fred has not yet made his day 2 a/b choice. God knows Fred will choose A out of his day 2 a/b choice. Fred then freely chooses B. What happens to God's knowledge that Fred would choose A?

What kind of god is that?
 
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Radagast

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Christians often make the claim that God knows everything. If asked for specifics, they’ll say this includes knowledge about the future (foreknowledge) and that such knowledge is infallible. Christians also often make the claim that man has free will. Upon being asked for specifics, they’ll agree that free will entails the ability to freely make a choice and that up until the time an option is chosen, a different option could have been chosen. At quick glance, these claims may not appear to be in conflict. However, if we dig a little deeper into each of these claims, we’ll see that they are.

Let’s say Fred is faced with a free choice of A or B. He is due to make this choice on Tuesday (day 2). We’ll call Fred’s day 2 A/B choice variable Y. This means prior to day 2, variable Y has no value (or the choice lies in an unmade state), and on day 2, variable Y will acquire a value of either A or B – to be decided freely by Fred.

Given the Christian claim that God has infallible foreknowledge, this would mean God knows infallibly what A/B choice Fred will make when the choice still lies in an unmade state. To gain further clarity on this, it can be asked, “if it were asked on day 1 does God know infallibly what Fred’s day 2 A/B choice will be, would the answer be YES?”. Christians would typically agree.

If asked for further specifics, such as what if Fred chooses something in conflict with what God knows he will choose, Christians will respond with the assertion that Fred will choose whatever God knows he will choose.

So we’ll call God’s day 1 knowledge of Fred’s day 2 A/B choice variable X. If God knows infallibly on day 1 what Fred’s day 2 A/B choice will be, then it follows that X has a static or fixed value of either A or B as of day 1.

We now have three conditions:

1) X (or God's knowledge as of day 1 of Fred's day 2 A/B choice) has a value of either A or B on day 1 and this value is fixed and cannot change. If it is A, it will remain A. If it is B, it willremain B. This follows the assertion that God has infallible knowledge of future events.

2) Y (or Fred’s day 2 A/B choice) receives its value on day 2. Once Y receives its value, it becomes locked. Prior to receiving its value, it could potentially become A or B, as Fred freely chooses A or B. This follows the assertion that Fred has free will or can freely make choices.

3) X is equal to Y. This follows the assertion that whatever Fred chooses is precisely the same as what God knew he would choose.

Not all three of these conditions can be true.

If #1 & #2 are true, then #3 can’t be true, as X wouldn’t be equal to Y, nor would Y be equal to X. Not only would X receive a value at a different point in time than Y, but Y could be assigned a value in conflict with the static value of X.

If #1 & #3 are true, then #2 can’t be true. Fred wouldn’t be able to freely choose A or B, as variable Y would already be defined as being equal to variable X. Christians will often argue that God's knowledge of Fred’s future choice is a function of Fred’s day 2 choice. But this doesn’t hold true if the answer to the question “if asked on day 1, does God know what Fred’s day 2 A/B choice will be?” is YES.

If #2 & #3 are true, then #1 can’t be true. What this means is if variable Y gets its value on day 2, then variable X also gets its value on day 2 and gets the same value as variable Y. It then follows that God can’t have infallible knowledge on day 1 of Fred’s day 2 A/B choice.

Therefore, it is logically impossible for God (or anyone) to have infallible foreknowledge of a yet to be made free choice.

You've posted exactly the same thing many times before, and received good answers (which you ignored).

This is spam.
 
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Albion

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Let's say you return to day 1. You know Fred will choose A on day 2. Fred then freely chooses B on day 2. What happens to your knowledge that Fred would choose A?

A mortal could do that. A demi-god of the Roman and Greek variety could do that. The God of the Bible cannot.

The question assumes that God has foreknowledge...and then poses a question which assumes that he does not. It is meaningless when asked of God.
 
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talquin

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A mortal could do that. A demi-god of the Roman and Greek variety could do that. The God of the Bible cannot.
The problem of free will is in response to claims that God knows everything and can do anything. It's not in response to claims that God is incapable of knowing future events.

The question assumes that God has foreknowledge...and then poses a question which assumes that he does not. It is meaningless when asked of God.
It assumes God has foreknowledge because it is in response to claims that God has foreknowledge. It doesn't ask a question which assumes he doesn't. It demonstrates that it is impossible for him to have infallible foreknowledge.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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1) X (or God's knowledge as of day 1 of Fred's day 2 A/B choice) has a value of either A or B on day 1 and this value is fixed and cannot change. If it is A, it will remain A. If it is B, it willremain B. This follows the assertion that God has infallible knowledge of future events.


The bolded part is where your error is. If a god sees everything as the past, there are no future events. This god has infallible knowledge because everything has already happened. So free will isn't affected.
 
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Hawkins

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Let's say you're faced with the choice of A or B. You choose B. Up until the time you selected option B, could you still have selected option A?

We are living by time. God is not. Say, He can anytime go to the future to see what you will choose.
 
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talquin

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We are living by time. God is not. Say, He can anytime go to the future to see what you will choose.
At a point in time in the human timeline which is day 1, do you say it is true that God knows what Fred will choose on day 2?

If so and we call variable X God's knowledge of Fred's day 2 a/b choice, would you say variable X has a truth value as of day 1?
 
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talquin

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The bolded part is where your error is. If a god sees everything as the past, there are no future events. This god has infallible knowledge because everything has already happened. So free will isn't affected.
Let's say variable X represents God's knowledge of Fred's day 2 A/B choice. Does variable X have a truth value as of our day 1?
 
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Hawkins

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At a point in time in the human timeline which is day 1, do you say it is true that God knows what Fred will choose on day 2?

If so and we call variable X God's knowledge of Fred's day 2 a/b choice, would you say variable X has a truth value as of day 1?

You don't need to make it that complicated. We are bound by time such that we make our choices along with time. God however can anytime see the results, such that there's nothing unknown to Him including your future choices.

The meaning of your choices is for others to see who you are. Your choices are for the angels and chosen saints to witness who you are. God needs this witness to legitimately bring you to heaven, or not.
 
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Albion

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The problem of free will is in response to claims that God knows everything and can do anything.
Then it's not much of a rebuttal simply to say that he doesn't actually know everything and cannot do everything, is it?

It demonstrates that it is impossible for him to have infallible foreknowledge.

Nothing so far has demonstrated that it is impossible for him to have infallible foreknowledge. You merely have presented a hypothetical scenario in which God does not have foreknowledge.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Let's say variable X represents God's knowledge of Fred's day 2 A/B choice. Does variable X have a truth value as of our day 1?

Yes, X has a truth value. It would have a truth value not just on day 1, but on any day of the universe's existence. Because the event is always in the past.

If X represents my knowledge of my lunch choice yesterday, then it has a truth value as of my day 1 (yesterday). That does not mean that my free will was compromised when I made the choice.

I think you might be confusing yourself with your own equation.
 
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talquin

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You don't need to make it that complicated. We are bound by time such that we make our choices along with time. God however can anytime see the results, such that there's nothing unknown to Him including your future choices.

The meaning of your choices is for others to see who you are. Your choices are for the angels and chosen saints to witness who you are. God needs this witness to legitimately bring you to heaven, or not.
I can't understand where you're coming from unless you answer my questions:

At a point in time in the human timeline which is day 1, do you say it is true that God knows what Fred will choose on day 2?

If so and we call variable X God's knowledge of Fred's day 2 a/b choice, would you say variable X has a truth value as of day 1?
 
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talquin

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Then it's not much of a rebuttal simply to say that he doesn't actually know everything and cannot do everything, is it?
I wouldn't consider that a rebuttal, but a reconciliation.

Nothing so far has demonstrated that it is impossible for him to have infallible foreknowledge. You merely have presented a hypothetical scenario in which God does not have foreknowledge.
Please go back to the OP. I demonstrate it there. If there is something about the OP which you don't understand, please let me know.
 
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Albion

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Please go back to the OP. I demonstrate it there. If there is something about the OP which you don't understand, please let me know.

I know what the OP says and the thirty or so extracts from it that you've reposted. However, none of it demonstrates that God doesn't have foreknowledge; you've merely created a hypothetical scenario and a hypothetical God in that scenario who does NOT have foreknowledge...and then expected us to treat it as though that is, actually, what God is.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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I can't understand where you're coming from unless you answer my questions:

At a point in time in the human timeline which is day 1, do you say it is true that God knows what Fred will choose on day 2?

If so and we call variable X God's knowledge of Fred's day 2 a/b choice, would you say variable X has a truth value as of day 1?

I answered.
 
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talquin

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Yes, X has a truth value. It would have a truth value not just on day 1, but on any day of the universe's existence. Because the event is always in the past.

If X represents my knowledge of my lunch choice yesterday, then it has a truth value as of my day 1 (yesterday). That does not mean that my free will was compromised when I made the choice.

I think you might be confusing yourself with your own equation.
So you agree X (or God's knowledge of Fred's day 2 a/b choice) has a truth value as of our day 1.

Let's say it's day 1 and the truth value of X (or God's knowledge of Fred's day 2 a/b choice) is A. Day 2 then comes around and Fred freely chooses B. What then happens to God's knowledge that Fred would choose A?
 
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