The Problem of Evil

Inkfingers said:

We don't know if He has or has not.

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So there is no evidence that any god has saved any child at any time?

Regardless, the point I am making is that evil has to be part of the universe. Do you understand that?

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Why? And how do you define evil?

They are a necessary part of the universe. One without which the real and genuine possibility of we could not know good.

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If I have a child and I treat it properly for the first five years of its life, have I acted poorly by not abusing it a few times so that it can know what evil is?

Inkfingers said:

If he saves one child from a car accident, why not the rest?

You'd complain about evil so long as there were one occurance of it.

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What does a child involved in an automobile accident have to do with Evil? (hint) nothing. So why are you bringing it up?

I always love these type of discussions...Not really, because that is where people tend to bring up the same old argument that IF God is a loving God then how can He allow the bad things to happen in this world. The simplest answer that I can pull out of my hat is that we have evil in this world 'Because of Sin' - The ground was cursed at creation when Adam and Eve decided to disobey God - He cursed the ground and made it more of a work load to till the ground and to grow crops. And for women it's the child bearing process that became a part of the curse.

Yes bad things happen but because of SIN, evil is going to roam about and is going to strike out on anyone. It doesn't matter if you're a believer or not, you're not exempt from suffering and pain.

I'm not saying that I understand WHY God allows things to happen to kids and innocent people, but for me to sit here and question God - the Creator of the Universe - and say WHY are you doing this? I feel that we have to look at the beginning of time and know that SIN is the answer. Plus we have to consider God's purpose? We sometimes don't know the reason for everything. Why did God allow a shooter to go into an amish school and shoot a bunch of kids? Why did He allow September 11th to happen? I think it again goes back to YES there is EVIL in this world and it's because of Sin that we have this evil.

I think before we can look just at God's Love - we have to consider His Righteousness and Holiness. We have to consider that in John 3:16 the word - 'perish' - reminds us that because of sine we all deserve to be punished for sin. We all deserve separation from God forever and forever because of sin...not really because what we've done but because we are born with a nature to sin - to do evil.

God made it possible though to have Forgiveness, but it doesn't exempt us from the evil.

Evil happens - and until Jesus comes back and takes care of the evil once and for all - It's going to be a rough ride and we need to rest on Jesus and His Power to get through the mess.

I honestly don't believe that God is up there saying - Okay this can happen to these people and this child - I believe that God 'allows' things to happen because of sin.

RPicking said:

The simplest answer that I can pull out of my hat is that we have evil in this world 'Because of Sin' - The ground was cursed at creation when Adam and Eve decided to disobey God - He cursed the ground and made it more of a work load to till the ground and to grow crops. And for women it's the child bearing process that became a part of the curse.

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So the serpent wasn't bad or evil then since it existed before Adam and Eve sinned?

Yes bad things happen but because of SIN, evil is going to roam about and is going to strike out on anyone. It doesn't matter if you're a believer or not, you're not exempt from suffering and pain.

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Is my headache caused by sin?

I'm not saying that I understand WHY God allows things to happen to kids and innocent people, but for me to sit here and question God - the Creator of the Universe - and say WHY are you doing this? I feel that we have to look at the beginning of time and know that SIN is the answer. Plus we have to consider God's purpose? We sometimes don't know the reason for everything. Why did God allow a shooter to go into an amish school and shoot a bunch of kids? Why did He allow September 11th to happen? I think it again goes back to YES there is EVIL in this world and it's because of Sin that we have this evil.

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Didn't your version of God create the evil serpent knowing it would trick Adam and Eve?

I think before we can look just at God's Love - we have to consider His Righteousness and Holiness. We have to consider that in John 3:16 the word - 'perish' - reminds us that because of sine we all deserve to be punished for sin. We all deserve separation from God forever and forever because of sin...not really because what we've done but because we are born with a nature to sin - to do evil.

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So if we are born with a nature to sin, does a newborn deserve to be set on fire for a billion years if it dies?

God made it possible though to have Forgiveness, but it doesn't exempt us from the evil.

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So your version of God created a serpent that he knew would trick Adam and Eve into making a mistake, and that mistake of eating a no-no fruit means you and I deserve to be set on fire for a billion years. But your version of God made it possible to give us forgiveness by taking off a weekend. Interesting.

Evil happens - and until Jesus comes back and takes care of the evil once and for all - It's going to be a rough ride and we need to rest on Jesus and His Power to get through the mess.

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Well, since he made the serpent, I guess it's his mess to clean up, right?

I honestly don't believe that God is up there saying - Okay this can happen to these people and this child - I believe that God 'allows' things to happen because of sin.

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If I see my disobedient children playing in an abandoned house after I told them not to, I do like Yahweh and set it on fire. Sin, remember?

When you marry a person you say vows for better or worse in sickness and in health and so on now when you say that on your wedding day you presume you will do exactly that but how do you know until worse becomes not being able to pay your house payments and losing your house is your love still strong enough in the bad times what if in sickness mean stroke will you stand by your partner when they are in their worst moment that is not known until it is tested. In good times love is easy to promise but it is in hard times that you will see if your love is true.

lt11 said:

When you marry a person you say vows for better or worse in sickness and in health and so on now when you say that on your wedding day you presume you will do exactly that but how do you know until worse becomes not being able to pay your house payments and losing your house is your love still strong enough in the bad times what if in sickness mean stroke will you stand by your partner when they are in their worst moment that is not known until it is tested. In good times love is easy to promise but it is in hard times that you will see if your love is true.

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Why is it so important to know if your love can survive the hard times if there are no hard times?

Ken

Ken-1122 said:

Why is it so important to know if your love can survive the hard times if there are no hard times? Ken

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you are presuming with humans there can be such a thing as no hard times and that if such a thing is possible that it would be optimal

juvenissun said:

God can do everything. But He can not make YOU to believe in Him.
Do you want Him to Make You believe? Or do you want Him to leave you alone?

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If he does exist, and he's going to send me to Hell for not believing, then it would be nice if he gave some evidence of his existence.

Here is an example of what God is currently doing to me, but from a perspective you can understand:

God talked to me, ThinkForYourself, and told me that you, juvenissun, must believe 1 + 1 = 3, or you will go to Hell, and be tortured for all eternity. No faking it, and saying you believe it. You must sincerely believe this "fact" as much as you believe water will quench a thirst.

Are you going to start believing 1 + 1 = 3? Do you think you will be tortured forever for not believing it? What would you say to God if he met you at the Pearly Gates and told you you were going to Hell because you didn't believe this?

Most importantly, if God did this and thus tortured you for all eternity, don't you think it would be an evil act?

lt11 said:

you are presuming with humans there can be such a thing as no hard times and that if such a thing is possible that it would be optimal

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If it's possible in heaven, why not on Earth?

Ken

juvenissun said:

God can do everything. But He can not make YOU to believe in Him.
Do you want Him to Make You believe? Or do you want Him to leave you alone?

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If the only choices were (which they are not) to make me believe for 70 to 75 years and I go to Heaven for eternity; or to leave me alone for 70 -75 years and spend eternity in Hell...... I would rather he force me to believe. Which would you choose assuming those were the only choices?

Ken

Ken-1122 said:

If it's possible in heaven, why not on Earth? Ken

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the people in heaven made the choice to stand with God through think and thin we are being changed by our decision to follow Jesus we will be conformed into his image we have been refined by fire (trials and hard times) we will be known by our love for one another our love for our God and our allegiance is to God why would we then take heaven and take it back to the image of this world.

lt11 said:

the people in heaven made the choice to stand with God through think and thin we are being changed by our decision to follow Jesus we will be conformed into his image we have been refined by fire (trials and hard times) we will be known by our love for one another our love for our God and our allegiance is to God why would we then take heaven and take it back to the image of this world.

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But while the people in Heaven were on Earth, even though they made the choice to stand with God, they were constantly sinning, doing wrong, and having to ask for forgiveness. (nobody is perfect right) It is only when they are changed and get to Heaven are they capable of not sinning, and doing wrong. So whatever changes they go through that allow them to be good in Heaven, why not have these changes now so they can be good here on Earth?


Ken

Ken-1122 said:

But while the people in Heaven were on Earth, even though they made the choice to stand with God, they were constantly sinning, doing wrong, and having to ask for forgiveness. (nobody is perfect right) It is only when they are changed and get to Heaven are they capable of not sinning, and doing wrong. So whatever changes they go through that allow them to be good in Heaven, why not have these changes now so they can be good here on Earth? Ken

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i'm not quite sure what you mean. Christians should be changing into the image of Jesus we should willing obey him and his teachings and we should be humble to admit when we are wrong the difference between atheists and christians is that we will admit that we are in need of jesus and that we strive to do the things that we are taught because we are grateful that though we dont deserve to be in Gods presence we have been graciously given this gift that allows us to be with him though Jesus. I think that the change between heaven and earth is that everyone in heaven has been approved that even if they were to make a mistake they would be humble and change that mistake as for other things like killing, raping so forth i cant imagine a true follower of Jesus doing that in light of who they follow. Christianity is not a license to do as you please.

lt11 said:

i'm not quite sure what you mean.

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My point is; while on Earth, Christians sin as well! Christians are not perfect. If they can be sinless and perfect in heaven; why not here on Earth?

lt11 said:

Christians should be changing into the image of Jesus we should willing obey him and his teachings

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They may be willing to obey his teachings, but I doubt any Christian will claim to be perfect like Jesus

lt11 said:

I think that the change between heaven and earth is that everyone in heaven has been approved that even if they were to make a mistake they would be humble and change that mistake.

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Are you saying those in Heaven will still make mistakes and sin?


Ken

Ken-1122 said:

My point is; while on Earth, Christians sin as well! Christians are not perfect. If they can be sinless and perfect in heaven; why not here on Earth? They may be willing to obey his teachings, but I doubt any Christian will claim to be perfect like Jesus Are you saying those in Heaven will still make mistakes and sin? Ken

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no one on earth is perfect and while this system is in play we Christians still live in a corrupted form but we know this and can accept that we are not perfect that is why we need the grace God has given us in Jesus but not achieving perfection does not mean not striving to do what we should do. When This world is over and judgement is done there is a new heaven and earth this earth will be gone and it is this earth that is cursed and I'd say that those true followers on the new earth will have no longing to disobey God. True follows would already have denied themselves for Christ and will already have shown their appreciation of the gift which we have received why would we sin against God when all sin will be gone no devil no evil no corrupted form left and we will finally see our Saviour right there in front of us it's what we long for. Christians may still sin here and now but we don't hide from sin and Christians should be striving to do our best A christian should never think grace as a license to sin freely. Now I'm not exactly sure how to explain this but in this world before I loved Jesus I was so stuffed up and I know that today I'm a completely different person to back then I am not perfect but wow I am very different. God empowered me I can't say much more than that but if I am that much different here on this earth I don't really have a problem with accepting that God has power we can't even fathom

lt11 said:

no one on earth is perfect and while this system is in play we Christians still live in a corrupted form but we know this and can accept that we are not perfect

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I understand. My question is why is it necessary for us to live in this corrupted form while here on Earth?

Ken

Ken-1122 said:

I understand. My question is why is it necessary for us to live in this corrupted form while here on Earth? Ken

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that's why I began with the marriage analogy Heaven is described as a wedding banquet the Church is his bride. God does tell us things that can be comparable to human experience so that even though we can't fully understand him because of our limits we can still have some understanding on things. If you are still standing side by side after the worst times then I believe you will definitely not stray away in the greatest of times

So if we are born with a nature to sin, does a newborn deserve to be set on fire for a billion years if it dies?

We are all born with a SIN nature - Yes, but I also believe that God views children as exempt from the penalty of sin because they don't know what sin is and don't know how to ask for forgiveness and to see themselves as sinners. I think and believe there is an age of accountability when it comes to those are born - plus what about those that are mentally challenged - I also believe God sees them differently because they may also not e able to see themselves as a sinful person because they don't have the mental ability to understand sin and wrong doing - I think that GOD is more fit to weigh out those kinds of things, BUT when you reach that age where you know the difference between right and wrong and what the sin nature is - yes then you are under the sin nature's penalty - that's my personal opinion and belief.

So your version of God created a serpent that he knew would trick Adam and Eve into making a mistake, and that mistake of eating a no-no fruit means you and I deserve to be set on fire for a billion years. But your version of God made it possible to give us forgiveness by taking off a weekend. Interesting.

I don't honestly know what you're saying about taking off a weekend, but YES I believe that god KNEW what was going to happen before He created Adam and Eve, because I also believe that HE KNEW he was going to have to send Jesus Christ to the world to show himself as the Answer for mankind. God created everything and that means that everything belongs to God. I do believe in Hell and I believe there are more scriptures confirming Hell than there are showing the evidence of Heaven. And NO I do not believe it's going to be a billion years - I believe it's going to be forever because that is what the BIBLE says and if God breathed the Bible then that settles it for me. Why would it matter if Hell is forever or something that ends in one split moment - the point is - is that Hell was created by God for the Devil and his followers. I don't believe that God wants to send anyone to Hell and it's mans choice to believe the lies that the devil is spewing these days.

Well, since he made the serpent, I guess it's his mess to clean up, right?

The mess you're referring to is SIN. And it started when Adam and Eve chose to disobey God. I'm not no educator or whatever as your title says but I can reason it together pretty simply and I don't know why it such a major debate - but we as humans - who don't have the POWER to know the future or all knowing as God is - we have the choice in decisions we make - YES - God knows but you don't. God knows what choices I'm going to make tomorrow, this weekend and next week and later on in my life - but I don't because I'm human - sinful - imperfect - and I still have to make a decision about anything and everything - So IF I choose to follow Christ - to become a Christian and to believe what He DID on the cross for my sins - I made a choice - God KNEW what choice I was going to make - that doesn't take away my right to choose. I know that some people are going to wave the red flag and say that's not true we don't have free will because God already knew what choice I was going to make - You're right - He did know because He's God.

So what if God created the serpent - lucifer is the one that entered the serpent to deceive Eve. He also created the tree that was used to make the cross that Jesus died on - so what. What's your point?

If I see my disobedient children playing in an abandoned house after I told them not to, I do like Yahweh and set it on fire. Sin, remember?

Are you sure you're an educator? Use common sense. What part of you is actually saying that would set a building on fire with your children in it. That is not in anyway the context I was stating. The 'Sin Nature' - the very nature that Jesus had to die for - the very thing that the Bible says we inherit when we're born - that is what causes us to be sinful - We are not sinners because we sin - we sin because we're sinners. If you light a match and burn down a building with your children in it, I call that being psychotic and yes you would be labeled a killer and probably be locked up for a long time - and yes sin makes us do stupid and thoughtless things. I'm not going to argue my point with people that just like to be on these boards to argue or to be a devils advocate because they get off to making people struggle to believe what they believe.

There's enough people struggling with real problem.

Hopefully I answered all your comments but if not I'm sure you'll fire back when ready. Oh well.

Cheers.

So there is no evidence that any god has saved any child at any time?

Common sense. When you believe in a God of Love and a God of Mercy, you tend to believe some of the obvious things. I think that God has more common sense than we could ever begin to muster. If God is going to send children to Hell like all those babies aborted over so many years, then I would have to say that I don't understand Love and Mercy and Grace. How can we conceive the idea that God would send kids to hell if they don't even know what the the sin nature is? They don't even know what the difference between right and wrong. Common Sense. But if the Bible doesn't talk about it then we really can't get into a deep discussion about it. It is simply a trap that people use to twist with people's minds.

And how do you define evil?

Sin. Anything that stands against God or his purpose is Evil. Our righteousness is ocnsidered filthy rags so that's how God sees the good things that we do so...hmmm...maybe evil is way worse than even our good.

If I have a child and I treat it properly for the first five years of its life, have I acted poorly by not abusing it a few times so that it can know what evil is?

Um, again with these messed up examples. What is your problem. You don't have to treat your child badly to show him what evil is. Evil is here. Evil is going to show it's ugly face and it doesn't need someone that should be loving their child and being their protector to be someone that is going to show them what evil is. Evil is around every corner.

If he does exist, and he's going to send me to Hell for not believing, then it would be nice if he gave some evidence of his existence.

As a believer YOU have to take things on FAITH. It's not about seeing with your eyes, it's about seeing with your heart. When someone comes to Christ they are coming by Faith because you're right - you have to first believe that what you're coming to is real. It starts by simply having an open mind of - what IF it is true? You know many say - what if you're wrong? What's the worst thing that would happen if what I believe is wrong? When I die everything will go black and life will be over. But what if I'm right? What then? I think that many times people want to find that physical evidence that says plain and simple - THIS IS GOD and THIS IS WHAT GOD IS. It's really a simple act of Faith - seeing with your heart and just letting God do the rest. I don't think you have to be perfect to be a Christian and I don't think that we get answers to all our questions as a Christian (this forum is the answer to that). People have questions and I don't think God is mad at you because you question faith or you wonder what is real.

And also, just because 'some Christians' are a certain way doesn't mean that all Christians are like that. The matter of fact is that YOU have to make it a personal thing with Him. Don't worry about what others are doing on their Christian walk - YOU make it personal with Him and He will begin to communicate with you and make you a new creation. Able to believe.

Are you going to start believing 1 + 1 = 3? Do you think you will be tortured forever for not believing it? What would you say to God if he met you at the Pearly Gates and told you you were going to Hell because you didn't believe this?

Yes. To be brutally honest with you. Sorry but you asked the question and because I believe in a literal hell. If your example is a picture of what Christians believe - 1+1=3 is compared to what believers believe that Jesus died on the cross - If you choose to reject that then yes eternal separation from God is the end result - BUT GOOD NEWS - why would you choose that? Forget the example, it's easier to believe then it is to step over the cross and forget about the what's lying in front of you. Why are you on CF? If you're totally against the Bible and what it stands for and what it preaches, then what brought you to this forum? Do you think that maybe God is taking that curiosity and allowing your heart to be nudged? Just because someone chooses not to believe - at this moment - doesn't mean that God still LOVES you and wants you to be in His care. The relationship with Jesus is not Fire Protection. It's not a get out of Hell free card. It's about wanting to be more like Him and craving to be closer to him. I so want that in my life. I've been crying this week in tears because of my situation, but my heart aches when I see so much division in the Christian realm. And it seems to me that instead of dividing we should be more of a body and not a fraction.

Most importantly, if God did this and thus tortured you for all eternity, don't you think it would be an evil act?

The evil act is sin. Sin put Jesus on the Cross - FOR YOU - God decided that He wanted to make it possible for anyone to turn to Him and have a relationship with Him. He is NOT willing that any should perish - Hell was created for lucifer (the devil) and his followers and I have to say that IF God says that He is not willing that any should perish then that means what it means. Take heart, He wants you to let go of the doubt and just trust him by faith.

When you sit down on a chair? Do you examine it before you sit down? Do you question it? Do you wonder if the bolts will hold? No you just sit down. It's kind of what faith means to me. I look at God and His Word and I take it by faith. I believe what the Bible says and I take it. I TRUST IT. And then God comes along and gives me the strength to continue.

Does evil go away? Does sin stop? No.

Again No. We have the answer to evil though.