The Problem of Evil

[jellybean99]

The Problem of Evil poses the question, "How can there be evil in a world created by a omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent God?" Many great (and not-so-great) thinkers have wrestled with this question. Proposed solutions to this apparent paradox are called "Theodicies." Check it out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

FYI: The attributions of omnipotence, omniscience and benevolence come from Classic Greek philosophy, and are believed to describe the ultimate deity in terms of power, knowledge and virtue.

"Good" comes from the Hebrew TOVE (rhymes with grove) and refers to the quality and desirability of someone or some deed. This can refer to morals, character, strength, purity, etc. "Bad," RRA (rhymes with bra) is used to describe entities and deeds of inferior quality and desirability and are seen as wicked and/or disagreeable in YHWH's eyes.

God is absolutely good--perfect & complete in every way, while everyone and everything else is RRA in comparison. To sin, kah-TAH, literally means to miss the mark, as in to fall short of goodness. In its extreme, RRA means wicked, evil and/or catastrophic.

When the serpent entered the Garden of Eden, he showed Eve the fruit of the tree which contained the knowledge of Good and Evil. Eve only knew of goodness before this incident. The serpent tricked Eve into eating the fruit, which was good, by doing something evil (wicked & disagreeable to God).

Once she and Adam ate of this fruit, wickedness entered creation making it RAA (corrupt, of inferior quality) and doomed the universe to eventually perish (like rotting fruit). Adam and Eve's evil deed separated the human race and our universe from God's goodness and also left humanity with an imperfect (inferior) sense of morals (right and wrong, good and evil, etc.).

It is only when one appears before God that one truly knows what is "good." While God the Father is not immediately available to this wicked world (He cannot look upon evil nor can we look directly at Him w/o perishing in our wickedness), His son Jesus can be made available to us if we seek Him out and He is willing. Prayer, Scripture reading and approaching Christ's witnesses on Earth are ways of seeking Christ, the anointed one.

To behold Christ is to realize "goodness." From there confession (agreement with God regarding our missing the mark), repentance (turning from one's wicked path) and atonement (by faithfully accepting the Pardon offered by Christ's perfect sacrifice) becomes possible. Worship (responding to God's glory), praise (responding to God's attributes), thanks (responding to God's blessings), petition (asking for God's treasure) and intercession (asking for God's action) are also available to those who appeal to God's goodness in prayer. Jesus Christ is the "High Priest" who hears our confessions so that we, having our goodness restored by the Holy Spirit, may approach God the Father or God the Son without fear of perishing. Continued fellowship with God requires regular prayer--the Holy Spirit only goes as deep as our confessions to Christ.

A Christian's fiery trials and tribulations are God's way of purifying our character (making it more and good and less evil), though we are all "works in progress" that do not realize perfection in this lifetime.

I trust that this post answers your questions, though reading this may prompt more questions and prayer. I pray that the light of Christ may shine on all who read this so that they may see it and faithfully turn to Christ, our Lord and Savior. Amen. http://christianforums.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=50003188

 

[BrendanMark]

Power, or δύναμις (dunamis, dynamis), in classical theology, pagan and Christian alike, is the affective capacity that identifies something’s nature. The power of creativity, in creating the world from nothing, the power of salvation, through acting in history definitively in the Incarnation—these are the powers of God. There are powers, part of God’s creation, that oppose God’s power—traditionally the Devil and demonic forces, today in atheism and relativism. Sin, being traditionally opposite to God’s nature or power, is a reality that identifies something’s nature as not godly. So to say that God is all-powerful in the traditional sense is not to say that sin and evil do not exist—it is to say He is all Creative, or all Good: everything that isn’t God needs God’s transformative, creative power for perfection. And God’s transformative grace is given on God’s terms and will, not our own, as grace is a power that identifies God, and the godly in men.

There are also neutral or secondary powers. The power of the tide reveals the nature of the sea, not of God, even if the ultimate cause of all things including seas with tides remains almighty God.

In relation to God, the power of religion to kill in God’s name is not a power of God, but of human religion, violence, sin and error. This was as much true for Plato as for the Fathers. But once again the terminology and concept are lost to those generations of Westerners alienated from their heritage. We now seem to think that ‘all-powerful’ means that God should stop every sin and interfere in every instant in a ham-fisted way that satisfies modern human sensibilities—and presumably should respond instantly to every human intellectual fashion, and whim. Not much of a concept of God, really, just a sulk that the world isn’t perfect according to one line of human thought amongst millions.

If only God is perfectly Good, then anything that isn’t God is not. That is in the nature of created things as against the Uncreated. Blaming God for evil is blaming God for creating anything at all that isn’t Himself. The power for evil exists in and reveals the created, not the Uncreated, by nature. Only God can perfect us by bringing us into the divine, perfect life itself. And resisting, opposing or ignoring God’s grace is a power, a δύναμις, that reveals human nature. From the story of Adam & Eve on.

 

[pehkay]

With death comes resurrection

 

[squint]

The Problem of Evil poses the question, "How can there be evil in a world created by a omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent God?" Many great (and not-so-great) thinkers have wrestled with this question. Proposed solutions to this apparent paradox are called "Theodicies." Check it out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

FYI: The attributions of omnipotence, omniscience and benevolence come from Classic Greek philosophy, and are believed to describe the ultimate deity in terms of power, knowledge and virtue.

"Good" comes from the Hebrew TOVE (rhymes with grove) and refers to the quality and desirability of someone or some deed. This can refer to morals, character, strength, purity, etc. "Bad," RRA (rhymes with bra) is used to describe entities and deeds of inferior quality and desirability and are seen as wicked and/or disagreeable in YHWH's eyes.

While it is true that 'theodicy' does attempt to explain this supposed problem, part of the problem is that evil is perceived as a problem to be 'explained.'

In the view of the 3 Om's there is no explanation really required other than that God created evil, allows evil to continue, evil serves Gods Purposes, and God Is powerful enough to cause evil to cease any time God feels like it. Very few if any explanations can tackle these facts with much coherence.

God is absolutely good--perfect & complete in every way, while everyone and everything else is RRA in comparison. To sin, kah-TAH, literally means to miss the mark, as in to fall short of goodness. In its extreme, RRA means wicked, evil and/or catastrophic.

If you applied just a little logic to your formula above you'd see that ANYthing God created is by virtue of fact going to be less than God and therefore LESS than His Perfection.

Evil is nothing more than a by-product of LESS than Gods Perfection, ALL of which HE ALLOWS because of the fact that it's NOT HIM but LESS THAN HIM. He IS allowed anything LESS than Himself by virtue of His Position and there is little cause and no point in holding that fact against Him.

When the serpent entered the Garden of Eden, he showed Eve the fruit of the tree which contained the knowledge of Good and Evil. Eve only knew of goodness before this incident. The serpent tricked Eve into eating the fruit, which was good, by doing something evil (wicked & disagreeable to God).

Once she and Adam ate of this fruit, wickedness entered creation making it RAA (corrupt, of inferior quality) and doomed the universe to eventually perish (like rotting fruit). Adam and Eve's evil deed separated the human race and our universe from God's goodness and also left humanity with an imperfect (inferior) sense of morals (right and wrong, good and evil, etc.).

Your attempt at explanation above is filled with faults. Sorry.

Jesus told us quite clearly that where The Word is sown, THEN satan comes IMMEDIATELY to steal that word from the hearts wherein it was sown. Satan then arrived considerably earlier than what you are making allowance for. Earlier in Genesis we see God BLESSING Adam (and Eve) stating them to be fruitful and multiply.

Satan then arrived on the scene. This is verified by the scriptural FACT that Eve did not repeat Gods command to Adam not to 'eat' of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...but she 'added' that they could NOT EVEN TOUCH IT. God assuredly did NOT say that. Eve then was already DECEIVED prior to ever eating as shown by her MISSTATEMENT i.e. A LIE already in her mouth and that being PUT THERE by the thief of THE WORD who is SATAN.

You then blame and accuse ADAM AND EVE for the working of the SERPENT which is also a fact OF THE SERPENT. That is what the 'serpent' IN PEOPLE does. It MAKES THEM blame and accuse our fellow man and IGNORE the presence of the SERPENT in all these matters.

In short...TAG. The serpent is IT and the serpent leaves easy fang marks to follow in peoples MINDS. The sign of the SERPENT is in part BLAME AND ACCUSATION to mankind and IGNORANCE of itself IN THEM.

Of course no self respecting 'believer' could EVER bring themselves to admit this FACT. Nope. Living in the light of this TRUTH can only be wrought BY GOD in people. Til then they will remain in the dark regarding the OPEN FACTS and that too is by GODS CHOICE for them.

It is only when one appears before God that one truly knows what is "good." While God the Father is not immediately available to this wicked world (He cannot look upon evil nor can we look directly at Him w/o perishing in our wickedness), His son Jesus can be made available to us if we seek Him out and He is willing. Prayer, Scripture reading and approaching Christ's witnesses on Earth are ways of seeking Christ, the anointed one.

If God is OMNIPRESENT He looks EVIL in the eyes constantly. Not only can God LOOK upon evil, HE is present in the MIDDLE of evil by virtue of His OMNIPRESENCE. Why do you have a need to excuse God from His OMNIPRESENCE??? Is there some gain to be had in that double talk?

To behold Christ is to realize "goodness." From there confession (agreement with God regarding our missing the mark), repentance (turning from one's wicked path) and atonement (by faithfully accepting the Pardon offered by Christ's perfect sacrifice) becomes possible.

I see. So if a person does not 'accept' the sacrifice then the entire Word, Work and Will of the God of all creation is then NULL AND VOID with regards to that blinded one?

heh heh heh...lol with that one.

Worship (responding to God's glory), praise (responding to God's attributes), thanks (responding to God's blessings), petition (asking for God's treasure) and intercession (asking for God's action) are also available to those who appeal to God's goodness in prayer.

Or it may be viewed by some as appeasement to save ones hide or the attempt at brown nosing God.

Jesus Christ is the "High Priest" who hears our confessions so that we, having our goodness restored by the Holy Spirit, may approach God the Father or God the Son without fear of perishing.

yeah, I figured that one out already. If you follow certain supposed 'formulamatic' approaches to supposed promises in text as (whoever) determines them, then God will not have to burn you alive forever and will then be FORCED to deal with you. Kinda like the Leprachaun who has to grant you your wishes if you find his pot O' gold.

Continued fellowship with God requires regular prayer--the Holy Spirit only goes as deep as our confessions to Christ.

Yep, the God of all creation can do absolutely NOTHING without your continued cooperation.

Where you dudes get this stuff is a real laugher.

A Christian's fiery trials and tribulations are God's way of purifying our character (making it more and good and less evil), though we are all "works in progress" that do not realize perfection in this lifetime.

That premise is a direct contradiction to scripture:

Heb. 10:
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

I trust that this post answers your questions, though reading this may prompt more questions and prayer. I pray that the light of Christ may shine on all who read this so that they may see it and faithfully turn to Christ, our Lord and Savior. Amen.

I sincerely pray for answers that contain sound reasonings for logical minds and not the fairy tales of nay sayers where the pieces don't compute.

Imagine that?

enjoy!

squint

P.S. Even though we may not see alike, I believe God loves you sincerely and eternally and will NEVER fry you or any other person alive in fire forever. Amen!

 

[BrendanMark]

Yep, the God of all creation can do absolutely NOTHING without your continued cooperation.

Where you dudes get this stuff is a real laugher.

It's a question of free will and if we are made free in the image of God as scripture testifies.

God wants only one thing in the whole world, the thing which it needs, but He wants it so strongly that the whole of His care is given to it. That thing is to find the innermost part of the noble spirit of man clean and ready for Him to accomplish the Divine purpose therein. God has all power in Heaven and on earth; but the power to do the finest of His works, in man, against man’s will He has not got.
John Tauler – Abandonment to the Divine Will (third sermon of the epiphany) quoted in An Anthology of Christian Mysticism [de Jaegher, Paul ed 1977 Templegate Publishers p35]

How people miss this basic and obvious concept throughout the history of Christian thought is a real laugher.

But God loves you, so what does that matter?

 

[squint]

It's a question of free will and if we are made free in the image of God as scripture testifies.

So, you've completely quantifiably ruled both God and the devil OUT of your mind?

Pardon my muffled laughter.

God wants only one thing in the whole world, the thing which it needs, but He wants it so strongly that the whole of His care is given to it. That thing is to find the innermost part of the noble spirit of man clean and ready for Him to accomplish the Divine purpose therein.

Ah yes. The ol' 'God is in NEED of 'MY' love routine.

Again, lol. Pardon me while I yawn.

God has all power in Heaven and on earth; but

I'll freely attribute the 'but' to your God given limiting imaginations which also serve Him with a portion of laughter.

the power to do the finest of His works, in man, against man’s will He has not got.

Says who? There are hordes of scriptural examples of the DIVINE INTERVENTION of God with mankind. Jesus Himself is a great example of that INTERVENTION.

What you have is in fact a GREAT BIG UNSUPPORTABLE PREMISE that you've built a HOUSE OF CARDS around.

So what?

John Tauler – Abandonment to the Divine Will (third sermon of the epiphany) quoted in An Anthology of Christian Mysticism [de Jaegher, Paul ed 1977 Templegate Publishers p35]

How people miss this basic and obvious concept throughout the history of Christian thought is a real laugher.

All things serve The Maker of all things one way or another. Pretty hard to get around that.

But God loves you, so what does that matter?

Even our pathetic views of Him do likewise serve Him. I find little reward in throwing up obstacles to condemn my fellow man, justify myself and exonerate God from all the events.

Is there some benefit to you for you as a so called 'believer' in those measures? For example, does it somehow comfort you that you can justify yourself for God 'needing' your LOVE and YOU providing same for Him? And does it comfort you somehow for God frying some other person alive forever for NOT being able to cough up the love hairball so God is then FORCED to burn them alive forever? Does that make some kind of sense to you?

Pardon me for raising an eyebrow to such nonsense.

enjoy!

squint

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Satan then arrived on the scene. This is verified by the scriptural FACT that Eve did not repeat Gods command to Adam not to 'eat' of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...but she 'added' that they could NOT EVEN TOUCH IT. God assuredly did NOT say that. Eve then was already DECEIVED prior to ever eating as shown by her MISSTATEMENT i.e. A LIE already in her mouth and that being PUT THERE by the thief of THE WORD who is SATAN.

God's instructions were not only not to eat of it but not to even reach for it. The Hebrew touch also means reach (for).


Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he (takes the same action that they did regarding the tree of knowledge) put forth his hand (reach), and take (touch) also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Three things are prohibited: reaching, touching, and eating. This was clearly the full prohibition that was given to Adam and thus to Eve. She was repeating the complete instructions from God. She 'added' nothing.

owg (Adding bits of knowledge to a knowledge starved church. )

 

[squint]

God's instructions were not only not to eat of it but not to even reach for it. The Hebrew touch also means reach (for).

God did not say 'touch.' That was an errant statement by Eve who was still in Adam when the command was received.

Three things are prohibited: reaching, touching, and eating. This was clearly the full prohibition that was given to Adam and thus to Eve.

Touching was brought out after they ATE and regarded the tree of LIFE. There is no mention of TOUCHING in the original command to NOT EAT.

She was repeating the complete instructions from God. She 'added' nothing.

God did not say they couldn't TOUCH the tree. That is only your INFERENCE but it does not exist. Print the original command and SHOW where God said DO NOT TOUCH that tree.

What you claim is not there and is only your INFERENCE.

owg (Adding bits of knowledge to a knowledge starved church. )

Oh, you mean NONexistent bits? lol I suppose we should worship your imaginations?

enjoy!

squint

 

[OldWiseGuy]

squint,

Here is the verse in question: Eve speaking to the serpent:

3:3 "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

Eve is relating what God told her, not what God told Adam. God knew Adam would obey. Notice that Adam wasn't tempted by the serpent. God told him not to eat of it and left it at that in Gen 2. The serpent was allowed into the garden for the express purpose of tempting Eve. Eve was purposely made to be disposed to falling for temptation. This was God's plan from the beginning. Eve approached the tree the way most women do, enjoying the sensuality of it before consuming it. God was actually telling her, "Don't even think about it."

Also notice that God spoke directly to Eve after the event. I infer from that that he spoke directly to her before as well. She says he did. I believe her.

owg

 

[squint]

squint,

Here is the verse in question: Eve speaking to the serpent:

3:3 "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

A. There is no record of God making this command to Eve.

B. That command to not touch it was not given to Adam

Eve is relating what God told her, not what God told Adam.

That is pure speculation on your part. There is no text whatsoever that says God gave Eve A DIFFERENT COMMAND than what He gave Adam.

God knew Adam would obey. Notice that Adam wasn't tempted by the serpent.

Well, let's see. Jesus told us clearly in at least 2 scriptures that where the Word is sown, SATAN comes to steal same from the heart.

I have zero reason to believe that Jesus was lying or that Adam was an exception to the facts that Jesus gave us in these matters, AND I have every reason to believe that deceivers deceive and there was a deceiver in the Garden whom Adam and Eve were 'subjected' to.

God told him not to eat of it and left it at that in Gen 2.

And that is correct. There is NO SCRIPTURE that says God told Eve something different with an add on to not touch it. One might even presume MORESO that Adam having already been deceived misquoted God or that Eve misquoted Adam. In any case at least Eve did not understand the command in her recount of it to the serpent, and of course that is a sign of having the Word stolen from ones heart by the wicked one:

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

I doubt very much that God Intended them to be confused about not eating it OR touching it and would have been consistent in the delivery of The Command. But the command could certainly be viewed as containing a difficult conundrum...YOU MAY EAT FREELY BUT...

Is there a FREELY with a BUT attached?

Oh, and what is DEATH btw? I doubt either one of them understood that either...

so...they were nearly instant fodder for the chief thief, SATAN, there in the Garden with them, placed there by God. Hey, how did that thing get there anyway? Is a deceiver GOOD? I thought all God created was GOOD?

The serpent was allowed into the garden for the express purpose of tempting Eve.

Oh, I don't doubt that one bit. And in fact I think Adam was probably hit before Eve. The command came to Adam while Eve was not yet taken out from him and formed. Neither Adam or Eve were an exception to this fact. They were both in fact DISOBEDIENT.

Eve was purposely made to be disposed to falling for temptation.

Paul told us that all mankind were bound by God to disobedience (Romans 11:32)

This does not mean however that mankind is the SAME AS the disobedience they have been bound TO.

This was God's plan from the beginning. Eve approached the tree the way most women do, enjoying the sensuality of it before consuming it. God was actually telling her, "Don't even think about it."

Well, it's real easy to blame Eve or to blame Adam. It's very difficult for almost anyone to blame the serpent though. That's quite another matter.

And you know WHY? Because the 'presence' of the serpent is with mankind, in FLESH and in MIND. Jesus openly DEMONstrated that fact on nearly every page of the Gospels.

But that same EVIL PRESENT cannot allow it's captives to speak TRUTHFULLY about it's presence. Liars cannot tell the truth. They are not allowed to. They simply LIE.

Also notice that God spoke directly to Eve after the event. I infer from that that he spoke directly to her before as well. She says he did. I believe her.

That is why I said before that your statement is pure inference. I don't mind credible inference, but I can't put aside clear solid evidence on the ground of personally subjective inferences which may also include influences that are not so good. Clearly we have no solid evidence whatsoever that God delivered a different command to Eve.

I'm sure you understand. Nothing personal.

enjoy!

squint

 

[OldWiseGuy]

squint,

If you are honest with yourself you will see that you too have also inferred or assumed things that are not specifically written. Reread your own last post.

owg

 

[squint]

squint,

If you are honest with yourself you will see that you too have also inferred or assumed things that are not specifically written. Reread your own last post.

owg

Oh, by all means please feel free to be specific. I do sincerely try to be accurate. It does no good to believe my own inferences if they are not provably true. I will admit to accepting probabilities if there is scriptural justification such as Satan stealing the Word immediately from people like Adam and Eve's heart as Jesus advised happens even if He advised us several thousand years later. That then is no longer an inference, but a FACT that is just as applicable in the Garden as it is right here and now.

enjoy!

squint

 

[squint]

It's a question of free will and if we are made free in the image of God as scripture testifies.

What makes you think you can provably eradicate both God and Devils from the will of mankind? There are plenty of examples that BOTH are with mankind and that fact alone effectively eradicates freewill.

God wants only one thing in the whole world, the thing which it needs,

Your premise is another freewill fantasy. God Is Perfect. God is NOT in 'need' or 'lack' because He Is Perfect.

Understand? Promotion of a God of lack and need is absurd, particularly when YOU have what God supposedly needs. All I can say to that mindset is sure buddy, sure.

but He wants it so strongly that the whole of His care is given to it. That thing is to find the innermost part of the noble spirit of man clean and ready for Him to accomplish the Divine purpose therein.

God commanded us to be PERFECT. Here's a clue. Only GOD is Perfect. And only God in mankind CAN be Perfect. That's HIS yob.

The notion that you have some valuable redeeming quality in and of yourself only that God is in need of in order to reward you is just another spin on works based gospel.

To think that God needs the fickle, self centered, egotistic, self serving hearts of mankind is absurd.

God has all power in Heaven and on earth; but the power to do the finest of His works, in man, against man’s will He has not got.

When you have all the information that God has and all the power God has then you may be equipped to tell me what God can or cannot do. Til then I will suppose that God could in fact do anything He wants to AS GOD rather than taking on your guesswork.

You simply use the freewill position to pat yourself on the back and reward yourself with the gift of eternal life because of your actions and some mysterious thing that is in your heart but not the other peoples who don't believe like you. Those people have to fry alive forever because they don't think like you.

John Tauler – Abandonment to the Divine Will (third sermon of the epiphany) quoted in An Anthology of Christian Mysticism [de Jaegher, Paul ed 1977 Templegate Publishers p35]

How people miss this basic and obvious concept throughout the history of Christian thought is a real laugher.

The freewill premise has huge gaping holes in it. It is as stated, used to justify self, condemn others and let God off the hook in all the events. God just gave the world a spin, stood back and is not involved whatsoever with the hearts of anyone.

But God loves you, so what does that matter?

God loves all mankind. God hates all devilkind, but made them and uses them anyway. And both of these entities are in the SAME FLESH. The devil is intimately LINKED to EVERY SIN...1 John 3:8.

As such you and I are simply not alone in the flesh or in the mind. Paul had evil present with himself when he desired to do good. Paul also had a DEVIL put upon him by God.

Paul was honest about this. And we are given many reasons WHY God does this to people. One of them is in Romans 11:32. See if you can get it?

enjoy!

squint

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Oh, by all means please feel free to be specific. I do sincerely try to be accurate. It does no good to believe my own inferences if they are not provably true. I will admit to accepting probabilities if there is scriptural justification such as Satan stealing the Word immediately from people like Adam and Eve's heart as Jesus advised happens even if He advised us several thousand years later. That then is no longer an inference, but a FACT that is just as applicable in the Garden as it is right here and now.








enjoy!

squint

We are not a party to the whole conversation that the serpent had with Eve. The scripture breaks in somewhere in the middle of it; a conclusion based on the word Yea, as well as the outcome of the whole conversation.

What is recorded was truthful statements by the serpent. The probable lies that he told her prior to the "Yea" to set her up are not recorded. We can only infer, er, guess.

However, using your logic, we must assume that everything the serpent said was the truth, as everything recorded was indeed true.

owg

 

[squint]

We are not a party to the whole conversation that the serpent had with Eve.

True. If satan came into Eve's heart immediately after Gods Words were planted numerous things could have transpired. Thieves take things in ways we don't see or they'd be a lot easier to catch.

The scripture breaks in somewhere in the middle of it; a conclusion based on the word Yea, as well as the outcome of the whole conversation.

I believe the view of the snake as some external organic physical entity may be entirely false in view of Jesus' statements regarding Satan and his entry into the heart/mind. We can't see this snake today and they may not have either.

What is recorded was truthful statements by the serpent.

I may view the statements are truthful accounts of what was said, but that does not mean the liar spoke the truth even if the liar spoke the truth.

The probable lies that he told her prior to the "Yea" to set her up are not recorded. We can only infer, er, guess.

Well, the fact is that she was not recounting the command as it was delivered to Adam so somewhere along the line it got botched by one of them and probably so because of the serpents influences with them both.

However, using your logic, we must assume that everything the serpent said was the truth, as everything recorded was indeed true.

owg

Nah. The validity of the serpents words just came in your latest post. I'd imagine because you couldn't find any of my supposedly erroneous inferences to pick on...

enjoy!

squint

 

[OldWiseGuy]

True. If satan came into Eve's heart immediately after Gods Words were planted numerous things could have transpired. Thieves take things in ways we don't see or they'd be a lot easier to catch.


I believe the view of the snake as some external organic physical entity may be entirely false in view of Jesus' statements regarding Satan and his entry into the heart/mind. We can't see this snake today and they may not have either.



I may view the statements are truthful accounts of what was said, but that does not mean the liar spoke the truth even if the liar spoke the truth.



Well, the fact is that she was not recounting the command as it was delivered to Adam so somewhere along the line it got botched by one of them and probably so because of the serpents influences with them both.



Nah. The validity of the serpents words just came in your latest post. I'd imagine because you couldn't find any of my supposedly erroneous inferences to pick on...

enjoy!

squint

I'm satisfied that like me you entertain assumptions that are not directly supported by scripture. I think we only disagree on particular assumptions or unsupported conclusions.

For example, I agree that there might not have been a physical snake present, but I visualize the story as if there were. The judgement that the serpent would go upon it's belly is clearly symbolic of him being 'cast down to the earth'. Same with the fruit. That tree represented more than the knowledge of good and evil. I think it represented the very throne (seat of judgement and authority) of God. Eve, with help from the serpent, talked herself into acquiring forbidden knowledge, and thus power, if only of intellect.

The event was a physical, metaphorical reinactment of the real 'original sin'. The serpent that spoke to Eve was the same 'voice' that spoke to Lucifer, with the same result: Paradise Lost. The whole creation story is so rich in metaphor that it blows your mind.

How do you interpret the creation of Eve from Adam's rib? Imo understanding this is key to understanding everything else that happened there, and before and since as well.

owg

 

[squint]

I'm satisfied that like me you entertain assumptions that are not directly supported by scripture. I think we only disagree on particular assumptions or unsupported conclusions.

I'm still waiting for you to provide the evidence and particulars of my unsupported conclusions.

For example, I agree that there might not have been a physical snake present,

Hey, look...Agreement. Isn't that wonderful!

I might even surmise that Adam and Eve were the 'tree' in reference. Trees are often associated with both people and devils in the text. Imagine that?

but I visualize the story as if there were. The judgement that the serpent would go upon it's belly is clearly symbolic of him being 'cast down to the earth'.

Adam's body was made of dust. So did same serpent eat.

Same with the fruit. That tree represented more than the knowledge of good and evil. I think it represented the very throne (seat of judgement and authority) of God. Eve, with help from the serpent, talked herself into acquiring forbidden knowledge, and thus power, if only of intellect.

I believe we can both truthfully say that the serpent is fully implicated in these matters. And that the serpent is activated automatically to RESIST and STEAL Gods Words in mankind where His Words are sown. I don't believe Adam or Eve were exceptions.

The event was a physical, metaphorical reinactment of the real 'original sin'. The serpent that spoke to Eve was the same 'voice' that spoke to Lucifer, with the same result: Paradise Lost. The whole creation story is so rich in metaphor that it blows your mind.

Any good student of the Word knows that the Word is spiritual. And in the light of this fact it will rightfully transcend a purely physical literal understanding. Yes, metaphor for sure.

I have a little exercise for ya about the very real working of the serpent that still transpires in mankind today, especially in 'believers' as that is where the Word is primarily sown. I call it the presence of the Anti-Christ test.

Read the first response of Jesus to Satan, and tell me if you believe what Jesus said. Then tell me on what Word basis you condemn/blame and accuse your fellow man IF Jesus' Words to Satan were TRUE:

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

IF these Words of Jesus are TRUE...that every Word of God is meant for LIFE to mankind, what justification is there to CONDEMN them to (burn alive forever, be eternally separated or annihilated.)

How do you interpret the creation of Eve from Adam's rib? Imo understanding this is key to understanding everything else that happened there, and before and since as well.
owg

Ah yes. Very interesting event. I think it fair to say that Eve was the INNER MAN of Adam. God called them BOTH Adam after all.

And when the COMMAND came the deceived INNER MAN was separated OUT of the external fleshly red man by God.

Our inner man remains deceived to this day. Eve was a picture of this issue of inner deception and that deception is of the DEVIL who is an occupant of the flesh along with Gods children. Jesus gave us many open examples of this fact. Also see Romans 7:17-21/Romans 9:19-20/2 Tim. 2:20-21 for references of TWO entirely different VESSELS with each person/lump. Again in Romans 11 Paul depicts the spirit of slumber having been placed upon the people of Israel, showing the TWO entities...they and that spirit that God put upon them.

God saves ALL of the vessels of honor. And God will utterly destroy every vessel of dishonor by a permanent DIP in the infamous Lake. The latter however are NOT our fellow mankind.

and of course

enjoy!

squint

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I'm still waiting for you to provide the evidence and particulars of my unsupported conclusions.



Hey, look...Agreement. Isn't that wonderful!

I might even surmise that Adam and Eve were the 'tree' in reference. Trees are often associated with both people and devils in the text. Imagine that?



Adam's body was made of dust. So did same serpent eat.



I believe we can both truthfully say that the serpent is fully implicated in these matters. And that the serpent is activated automatically to RESIST and STEAL Gods Words in mankind where His Words are sown. I don't believe Adam or Eve were exceptions.



Any good student of the Word knows that the Word is spiritual. And in the light of this fact it will rightfully transcend a purely physical literal understanding. Yes, metaphor for sure.

I have a little exercise for ya about the very real working of the serpent that still transpires in mankind today, especially in 'believers' as that is where the Word is primarily sown. I call it the presence of the Anti-Christ test.

Read the first response of Jesus to Satan, and tell me if you believe what Jesus said. Then tell me on what Word basis you condemn/blame and accuse your fellow man IF Jesus' Words to Satan were TRUE:

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

IF these Words of Jesus are TRUE...that every Word of God is meant for LIFE to mankind, what justification is there to CONDEMN them to (burn alive forever, be eternally separated or annihilated.)



Ah yes. Very interesting event. I think it fair to say that Eve was the INNER MAN of Adam. God called them BOTH Adam after all.

And when the COMMAND came the deceived INNER MAN was separated OUT of the external fleshly red man by God.

Our inner man remains deceived to this day. Eve was a picture of this issue of inner deception and that deception is of the DEVIL who is an occupant of the flesh along with Gods children. Jesus gave us many open examples of this fact. Also see Romans 7:17-21/Romans 9:19-20/2 Tim. 2:20-21 for references of TWO entirely different VESSELS with each person/lump. Again in Romans 11 Paul depicts the spirit of slumber having been placed upon the people of Israel, showing the TWO entities...they and that spirit that God put upon them.

God saves ALL of the vessels of honor. And God will utterly destroy every vessel of dishonor by a permanent DIP in the infamous Lake. The latter however are NOT our fellow mankind.

and of course

enjoy!

squint

Squint,

It's hard to converse with you while ducking the two by four you're always swinging. You come across angry and sarcastic. You should chill a little.

I don't condemn or accuse anyone. I do use discretion and avoid relationships with really ungodly people.

God has chosen his own from among mankind. He will save us and destroy those vessels made for that purpose. It's as simple as that. You have answered your own question.

Eve as the 'inner' sinful man? Interesting, but that connection might need more work.

owg

 

[squint]

Squint,

It's hard to converse with you while ducking the two by four you're always swinging. You come across angry and sarcastic. You should chill a little.

What I write and how you preceive same are more than likely two entirely different matters. Without specifics as noted prior one merely falls prey to false accusations. And of course the false accusers than mankind carries don't like to be called on the carpet to provide specifics, usually because there are none.

I don't condemn or accuse anyone. I do use discretion and avoid relationships with really ungodly people.

And I might surmise that if you couldn't avoid you may condemn and accuse?

God has chosen his own from among mankind. He will save us and destroy those vessels made for that purpose. It's as simple as that. You have answered your own question.

Oh, I don't doubt that at all. I also don't doubt that the subject matter is just a tad more complex than God zapping my unsaved asian neighbors just because He feels like it and you say it's so.

enjoy! and don't forget to:

squint

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The last word is yers.

owg