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The Preservation of the Holy Scriptures

tall73

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I quoted the same verse from 2 Peter to illustrate that men were inspired. However, the men are still often referred to as the authors because it says that the men were writing to the churches:

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,


2Co 2:9 For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything.


Etc.

Beyond simply that point however, there are differing views of inspiration. Some, and most Baptists, hold that God verbally inspired each word of Scripture. Even among those who hold such, some think God gave just word as He would want, while others see God selecting from the existing vocabulary of the biblical writer, which they see explaining why Amos writes more like a farmer than Isaiah, for instance. Others do not see every word as being dictated by God. Some see the those "moved" by the Holy Ghost as not being given each word but given some message by divine inspiration that they then put in their own words, and from their own experience and background, reflecting their own word choices.

In this model you have a more human element. This is likely getting closer to what PrincetonGuy might hold at this point.

The point being, folks refer to them as authors because they wrote it down. They are still inspired. But the precise nature of that has been debated for sometime. Some do not hold to God being the soul source of information. As many in my old denomination said "the Bible writers were God's pen-men, not God's pen". What we know is God chose to reveal His word through people, not simply drop it down completed from heaven in written form. So yes, folks often refer to them as authors. And at the same time many see them as inspired (though secular critics would not, despite what the text says).



Now again, I am not going to jump through every hoop, one at a time, for days with your endless questions about textual criticism, etc. I asked you to clarify something about your view so that I could respond to your other posts. Instead you have gone off on a one at a time series of questions about textual criticism and my view of it, understanding of it, relation to it etc.

Very little of this has had anything to do with preserving the Scriptures, and you have been studiously avoiding any of the questions I asked you on that point. You have yet to actually spell out your view of the matter and how the KJV is the exact replica of the autographs, only in English.

If you want to present the methods of the KJV translators for constructing their eclectic text, show it if you wish. I have no interest in going point by point through your series of questions just so we can get to what your view is. State your view.

I will go back and respond to the other posts by you that I did not previously as it appears you are not going to clarify what I asked you about any time soon.
 
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tall73

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Since I was the one referencing evidence you might want to ask me what I would accept rather than put words in my mouth and categorize them as "the critic of preservation". I already indicated I thought the Scriptures were preserved, but that I do not hold that the KJV is the exact reproduction in every particular of the autographs, only in English.

And the evidence that would suffice is what you wound up saying later on in this very post:

By the way, this doesn’t mean there is not “evidence” of a real good “paper-trail”, it just means there is no monolithic text.

Since we do not have the autographs, and since we do not have a monolithic text, we have to look at the manuscript evidence or paper trail.

That paper trail doesn't have a bunch of manuscripts that cover large part of the Scriptures that have the same readings as the KJV. So I do not find that evidence compelling that the KJV is the reproduction of the autographs, only in English, because it doesn't match any of the actual manuscripts.
 
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tall73

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Why do you talk about the "critic" when addressing my post? I already said I think the texts are preserved in the various manuscripts, not in a monolithic way, but with variants. Now you are saying the same thing, but arguing with the "critics."

You did this earlier as well, even indicating my view of the various text types was off, and then going on about positions of the critics.

Stop recycling your old posts and talk to me, or don't pretend to talk to me by quoting my posts.



The disciples had plenty of faith about the resurrection, etc. as they had eye witnesses, the prophecy of Scriptures, etc. Faith does not mean without any evidence.

In the same way you talked about a paper trail. Now I already responded to their comment, regarding "being immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages'.

If by pure they mean with nothing added or taken away, that is simply not true as you already acknowledged. The originals are in there, but we have variant readings, so much so that we cannot immediately know which are which.

And if what they mean is that God preserved whole manuscripts, exactly correct manuscripts throughout time, then why don't we see those that agree with the KJV in its readings?




I have accepted it as He left it, with variants. It is those who claim the KJV is the exact duplicate of the autographs who must show that this is the case. And simply saying they know it by faith without any manuscript evidence, or without explaining how no similar lengthy manuscripts match it in readings does not suffice.



If you quote my posts, talk to me, not everything that has been said and then act like I said it.

If you can't respond to what I actually said then don't quote my posts at all.
 
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tall73

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Jack said:
“The Scriptures themselves are in fact evidences” … But WAIT!!! Isn’t that the whole point of this thread, how do we KNOW that God has “preserved” the scriptures that are “evidences” of Him?

Jack

The manuscripts are what I spoke of, and the very thing you admitted to:
By the way, this doesn’t mean there is not “evidence” of a real good “paper-trail”, it just means there is no monolithic text.

Now if you would read what I said and respond to what I said instead of spending your time responding to critics, what has been said in general, etc. it would help.
 
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tall73

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Now explain how that tells you that the KJV is the exact replica of the autographs, only in English, when it is an eclectic text, drawing from various Byzantine readings, including minority readings, and making reference to earlier English Bible versions as well.

Since it does not for any great length match any of those MSS, how are those helping your with your position, if it is your position as it is Joe's that the KJV is the exact replica of the autographs, except in English?
 
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tall73

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What modern critics refuse to accept, is the true nature of the origin of modern "textual criticism". Simply observe Post #273:
This is clearly a favorite topic of yours. However, it does nothing to demonstrate your position on the KJV of the Bible.

So why not show how you got that before going off on extended tangents? If you assert, as does Joe, and as it formerly seemed you do, that the KJV is the perfect reproduction of the autographs, except in English, then you need to demonstrate that. And it will not be found in later critics who were not even alive at the time the KJV was written.
 
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tall73

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The relevance of knowing that the London Baptists believed in the preservation of Scripture “by His singular care”

Note what they did not say in this quote. They did not say KJV version is a perfect reproduction of the autographs, only in English. Nor have you clarified what they meant by pure. Nor have you clarified how it could be said that it was throughout all ages if they have reference in any way to the KJV, as no lengthy text has the same readings as the eclectic KJV.


It is clear that we have the manuscript evidence, with variants. In that respect, the Scriptures have been preserved.

Your evidence for your position is not clear. The exact nature of the position of the London Baptists is not clear. Nor have the agreed with your position either.

And as PrincetonGuy pointed out, various groups have believed various things over time.

There is nothing about the London Baptists that makes their view the only view of inspiration or preservation. Yet even if it was it does not go as far as yours, and they do not present the actual evidence for their view in the portion you quoted.

You noted the "paper trail". Show how the paper trail supports your view.

Note, that is not the same as talking down about later critics, talking down about the change in views over time, talking down about PrincetonGuy's view, etc. If you cannot explain your own view without referencing the views of later critics all the time then there is something wrong with your view.
 
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tall73

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The above link gives evidence as to why the Scriptures need to be preserved by God.

Jack
You went on at length speaking about your disagreement with PrincetonGuy's views on the subject, but then the only thing you to do demonstrate that God preserved the Scriptures--the very topic of the thread--is to link to a Google book?

Since that is the whole topic, why wouldn't you summarize the salient points in your own words? Is it that complicated? Why should he have to go read book to get the evidence for your position in a discussion forum?

Why is it you are in a hurry to talk about everything but the evidence for your position?
 
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tall73

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Jack, you seem confused on a few things. The issue is not why Princetonguy believes as he does. Yes, he likely has a number of different presuppositions.

The problem is you keep talking about the critics but never actually gave the evidence for your view, which is the topic of this thread.

An astute reader would show pages on pages of Joe saying he knows it because he knows it, and he believes it because he believes it. And they would see him saying he saw it in the Scriptures, but when asked where he can't say, and says "did the scriptures say they were not preserved"?

Then they see you spelling out in various details the views held historically by various groups, particularly the textual critics of the modern times.

You know what has not been seen? An actual defense of your view, evidence for your view, an explanation of how your view is anything other than Joes' I know it because I know it statements.

15 more pages of your thoughts on how wrong the presuppositions of the textual critics may be, and how wrong the presuppositions of PrincetonGuy may be will not support YOUR view.

So why not explain your view about preservation, how it relates to the KJV (because afterall that was the original purpose of the thread that got locked before and which this continued). And then why not present the "paper trail" evidence of how that view makes sense.
 
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tall73

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These are just a few of the many things stated by Bruce Metager, the leading textual critic of the 20th century. It really sounds as though textual critics sincerely believe in what the Bible says, doesn't it?

Jack

It is really starting to sound like you have a whole lot to say about the textual critics, and modern versions, and just about nothing to say to support the view that the KJV is the exact replica of the autographs, only in English.
 
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tall73

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Fantastic, you don't agree with the presuppositions of the critics. Can you explain how that supports YOUR view?

Because so far we have not seen you spell out how the paper trail of manuscripts supports your view. Taking shots at Metzger isn't going to cut it.
 
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tall73

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I don't think there were many technical terms used. Nor do I think your general course of the last several posts has simply been to clarify definitions.

You seem to want to go back through yet more discussion on the critics, their assumptions, their presupposition, their wrong-headedness in regards to inspiration, etc.

Please note, that none of that supports your view. We are still waiting on you to support your view based on the paper trail of the manuscripts.
 
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tall73

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PrincetonGuy said:
Absolutely false and malicious lies about Christians who have devoted their lives to serving our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus are NOT evidence for the preservation of the Bible....


Indeed they are not. Jack has yet to give the evidence, from the 'paper trail" of the manuscripts that supports his argument.

Which is why all this about critics doesn't do him much good.


 
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tall73

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This is not piece two to any explanation of YOUR view of the preservation of Scriptures. This does not explain anything about how the KJV is the exact replica of the autographs, except in English.

If the critics referenced had never been born your view would still be the same, as you do not hold to their views. So again, stop writing about the critics. Present the evidence for your view form the 'paper trail' of the manuscripts, or admit it has no evidence.
 
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tall73

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Jack, why have you posted page after page of the critics view when it doesn't matter a hill of beans for your view, which is different than the critics?

I am not going to spell out my take on what methods the KJV translators used so you can quibble with my phrasing of that as well.

State your view. State how you think the KJV folks worked. But what ever else you do, state how the paper trail of the manuscripts supports your view of preservation. And state how the KJV is the exact replica of the autographs, except in English, as outlined by the manuscript evidence.

And I truly do not want to hear one more thing about the critics until you give the evidence for your view.
 
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tall73

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Please likewise note Jack that you can spell out your view, and the evidence for it, without asking me one more solitary question. It is unnecessary to see whether I agree with your view in every detail in order for you to state your view. Surely any one who has read this far in the thread has been in suspense long enough. State your view, and the evidence for it.

Please show us how the 'paper trail' of the manuscripts demonstrate that the KJV is the exact replica of the autographs, only in English.
 
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tall73

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Since in the entire thread this is the only argument I have seen that even tries to spell out some evidence of sorts that God's word is preserved in the KJV (rather than simply saying it is), I will try to address it.




Just to clarify, at any given point in time since the inspiration of the Scriptures the Scriptures must then be present, and preserved, correct?



If we take those verses to indicate that the word of the Lord is then preserved, then those words should be preserved from that time, right on through to the present.

Yet, no where in that manuscript trail do we see documents of long segments of Scripture that match the KJV in all its readings. So how can the KJV be the exact preserved word of God?


Whether they are indignant or not is missing the point. If you assert that the KJV is an exact replica then you need to trace the evidence through the manuscripts which were preserved that shows what you assert.


I don't think anyone in this thread has doubted God's ability to preserve His word. That does not establish that the KJV is the preservation of that word. For that you would have to show how the manuscript evidence shows that.


But if He did preserve them then did not all the people from that point on not need them? And shouldn't they have had them if they were preserved? And wouldn't God's promise apply to each and every one of them just as it does to us?

And indeed He did preserve His word. But you have not demonstrated that the KJV is an exact replica.


Why don't you think God produced an exact copy of His word sometime before 1611?

And if He did, why do we not see the manuscripts that agree with the KJV in its readings?


Just as your belief that the KJV is the perfect replica of the originals, only in English cannot be challenged, because you base it on nothing.



Yet those who hold that it took a committee of scholars commissioned by the king to figure out which readings were the right ones think that God wrote perfect Scriptures, but no one could use them either until they performed this service in 1611.


Then you ought to be able to show "over the centuries" various manuscript copies of God's word that agrees in every respect with the readings of the KJV. However, you cannot.

They are found in the Authorized Version.

So you assert, but give no evidence for such.
 
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tall73

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Has anybody heard, about the Gospel of Thomas? I just saw a short documentary, about this, on PBS. What do you think of it?

Primary Sources - Gospel Of Thomas | From Jesus To Christ | FRONTLINE | PBS


Yes, in this case the article references the "sayings gospel" of Thomas. Some of the sayings are also seen in the Scriptures as we have then today. Others are not found in the Scriptures. Obviously the sayings gospel did not make the canonical cut.

John acknowledges that the gospel of John for instance does not record all the ACTIONS of Christ, and certainly, we don't have all the words either preserved from all of Christ's ministry.

Joh 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.

So there could be some legitimate sayings of Jesus there that were not in the Scriptures as we know them.

Some view it as a proto-gnostic text. And of particular note as unusual is this section:

114 Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."
Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

The notion of "living spirit" as able to inherit the kingdom is seen by some as an early form of gnosticism.
 
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