The practice of healing and working of miracles

ARBITER01 said:

Right there Oscarr! That right there!!

That's exactly what I'm talking about. A relationship with GOD that He is so close to you that His purity and truth not just reside in you, but rub off onto you affecting others.

It is a close relationship with GOD that is required. People want healing in the body of Christ? Well spend that much time with GOD like Smith did and you'll see it happen.

Click to expand...

Lester Sumrall went to visit him in Bradford just before World War 2. He arrived with his newspaper under his arm, and when Wigglesworth saw it he would allow it in his house. He said it was full of lies. When Lester got inside they spent the first half hour with Wigglesworth reading him God's Word, then the next half hour in prayer. Wigglesworth was single minded and totally committed to Christ in his personal as well as his ministerial involvement. When he first heard about the gift of tongues, he moved heaven and earth to receive it. He was a shy man, while his wife did all the ministry. When he got baptised with the Spirit and the gift of tongues, he changed so dramatically that his wife exclaimed, "That's not my Smith!" When his wife died, he actually raised her from the dead, but she said she wanted to go so he had to release her to the Lord. Walter Cantrell, his pianist while in NZ was a friend in my church in the late 1960s. He described that when Wigglesworth started to preach he was quiet and subdued, and then something happened and he became alive in the Spirit and then things started to happen in the meetings. In this way, Walter saw when Wigglesworth actually got filled and activated with the Spirit to minister. As a young man of 21, being mentored by Walter was a unique experience that has stayed with me for the rest of my life.

So if anyone accuses me of being Cessationist, I have a really good laugh!

Watchman1 said:

After the many years of concentrated research and conversations with the Lord concerning the healing ministry, there don't seem to be any real answers, so it remains and mystery why in the face of definite promises in God's Word that the gifts never ceased as far as God is concerned and are still for today's church, there are so few actual healings.

Click to expand...

There are answers, people just reach those answers at their own timing.

Often one has to go thru the 5 stages of grief before they finally reached them.

ByTheSpirit said:

I think prophecy is labelled as a sign as well. Tongues are a sign to unbelievers and prophecy is a sign to believers.

Click to expand...

Watchman1 said:

My background is that I was converted to Christ in the AoG in Lower Hutt, Wellington NZ. in1966. I was taught from the word go that healing is for today. There was a lot of teaching about it from all the big names of the time, including Smith Wigglesworth, A A Allen, T L Osborne, Kathryn Kuhlman and Oral Roberts.

Click to expand...

First I read your whole post and found it interesting. And I feel you and your story you're being sincere and you were wanting to believe the healing teachings. Now some of this is merely my opinion.....but those names you mentioned above in my assessment were evangelists with healing anointing. Kathryn Kuhlman, Allen and
God would give them words of knowledge and people were healed.

T L Osbrone largely ministered over seas and at the end of his book Healing the Sick it gives an incredible number of accounts of people that were saved and healed and spirits of infirmities leaving people's bodies. Having read through the account I do feel they are credible.

My own father in law, had a deformed heart and doctors said he would die before 21. They took him down in the States, laying in a van and he left the meeting healed and drove the vehicle home.

Watchman1 said:

So all the big name healing evangelists we had during the 1970s had a basis of sound Pentecostal doctrine.

Click to expand...

I was born again in 76. I acknowledge I shouldn't feel this way but how I wish thing were like that today. Even Christian music....there was just something about it that resonated spiritual devotion in me. Anyway. that's another topic.

Watchman1 said:

I remember asking my pastor, who had a Methodist Holiness background, plus a faithful Pentecostal who believed in divine healing, having been healed of a life threatening heart condition while in his late 40s. I first met him when he was 66 years old, totally fit and healthy.

Click to expand...

So that sounds like a good testimony.

Watchman1 said:

He had a stroke around 10 years later and died at around 78 from pneumonia.

Click to expand...

So you're wondering if that means all he said about healing prior was false? Thing is though we don't know, nor do I care to know why it happened to him. That's between him and God. Would it mean one is a horrible person if healing wasn't manifested. No. It's just a struggle living in this world at times. Many times people just get tired. Just going to Heaven can be considered a great victory too.

Watchman1 said:

Then I observed the so called healing ministry of Todd Bentley, Todd White, Benny Hinn and Reinhard Bonnke. Todd Bentley was asked to provide 5 medical certificates that proved his claims of healing. He couldn't.

Click to expand...

At the end of the day we need to veer away from making our assessments in regard to looking at things like this. What'd the ultimate deciding factor....it is what the Bible teaches about the subject.

Watchman1 said:

I also discovered that Todd White's leg lengthening was a total fraud in which it showed clearly that he was manipulating a person's foot to make it appear the other leg was being lengthened.

Click to expand...

Could have been doing this. Might not have been. How would you really know? Any critic who is observing can assert such a position. Some of those things I don't try to figure out and I leave that in the hands of God. If someone willfully is exaggerating things and they know they are, and I stress that they KNOW they are they'll have to answer to God for it. I think one should be conscious that one might like the praise from men that they're something special with God's favor.....but if none of it was true and you KNEW it wasn't true.....well why should you want to do it?

Watchman1 said:

Puzzlingly, although the guy went down under the power of God, there was not enough power to get him out of the wheelchair and walking. So all these things muddied the waters for me, because God was obviously not healing anyone through these men.

Click to expand...

Perhaps you're problem is that you watch too much of what other mean do or claim to have happened or what people claimed really didn't happen. Ultimately you must lock in and get back to WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY. Here's a question for you. If you were the only person on earth and there was actually none of this of other men that existed....just the Bible alone....what would you believe and why?

Watchman1 said:

Oral Roberts was healed of TB, and I believe it, because if it was false, his parents would have spoken up at some time.

Click to expand...

And not only his parents. Other people would have known about his history as well.

Watchman1 said:

And yet the senior leader of Palmerston North Teen Challenge who totally believed in the healing ministry, remained profoundly deaf in both ears and was never healed. I had another friend, a very saintly woman who love the Lord, but had rheumatic arthritis which totally crippled her, and she finally went blind. She was prayed for over the years by all the big name guys who came to Wellington, but was never healed, in spite of continually praying for her own healing all her life until her death.

Click to expand...

I don't know why these people weren't healed. I don't doubt they weren't fine, good loving Christians who loved God. But we still must stay with the word. As I say I can't speak into their personal situations and you'd need a revelation from God in the Spirit to do that....exactly why Person A or B wasn't healed. Also I'm confident in most times God wouldn't give it. That's their business between them and me, kind of like when Peter asked Jesus what about John's future. He asked him what's that to you? John 21:22

I have to say this though and I don't know if it applies either of these individuals you mentioned and I don't care to know but A person CAN believe God heals today. One can even assert nobody believes in healing more that I? But here's one thing I see practically everywhere. If one comes to a prayer line and they're asked will you be healed now when I lay my hands on you and pray.....nearly everybody says, "I hope so!" But Jesus said you must believe you receive WHEN YOU PRAY....Mk 11:24.

If you truly believe you'll receive when you pray you won't say I hope so. You'll say with excitement YES, and AMEN. Well how can one know that? Well it comes right back to what do you actually believe the Bible teaches about it. Do you actually believe it's a covenant provision or not?

Watchman1 said:

So in the light of all this, I see the disparity between God's clear word about healing, which I totally believe, and the lack of observable results which I have seen over the last 50 years. This is why I have now decided to question why there is this disparity. All I am wanting to do is to be honest and to state things as they are.

Click to expand...

I actually agree with you. There are not as many people healed that we would like to see. So this takes us down one of two roads. Going against what you called the clear word about healing which you say you totally believe. Or 2) staying with that word which causes one to turn to the Christian community and not being afraid to point out what it takes to actually connect to God's grace in this matter. Some would say don't even think about telling the Christian community they could be wrong in how they're thinking about it.

I think the Scripture tells us several reasons why we do not see more healing in the church. Also, this seemed to be the case for the early church, and we should not be surprised to see the same situation today. For instance, sickness seems to be a normal situation in the early church just as it is today.

Consider:
1 Corinthians 11:29-30 KJV
29. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation
to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

There may be disagreement as to what "discerning the Lord's body" means, but the consequences are the same. MANY of them are weak, sickly, and MANY die young. This verse alone tells us that there were many people sick and dying in the early church, much like today.

Matthew 13:58 KJV
58. And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Mark 6:5-6 KJV
5. And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon
a few sick folk, and healed them.
6. And he marvelled because of their unbelief.
And he went round about the villages, teaching.

This seems to say if people hold the minister in low regard it will affect the results of the ministering. Even Jesus experienced the effects of unbelief in His ministry. If some were not healed in His work, we should not be surprised if few are healed today. Today, people who preach and teach healing are often mocked and even called heretics. It is no wonder that there are few manifestations.

There is other evidence in the NT of believers being sick.

2 Timothy 4:20 KJV
20. Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

Philippians 2:25-27 KJV
25. Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother,
and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he
that ministered to my wants.
26. For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that
ye had heard that he had been sick.
27. For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him;
and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.

We have no idea why these ones were sick. But, once again, we can conclude that despite the promise of healing and health in the NT, there were reasons why some were not healed. It was not unusual then, nor should we be surprised that it is normal for today.

James does not seem to think it an unusual thing for believers to be sick. He asks, "is any sick."
He states the prayer of faith shall save the sick. That is an unbreakable statement. If the prayer is offered with faith, the sick one will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up.

James 5:13-15 KJV
13. Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14. Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them
pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and
if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

The first point is that having believers sick and even dying in the church was not an unusual thing then, and we should not be surprised that it is also common today. Never did they state that the existence of sickness in the church was due to God or His will.
The second point is that never in the NT was the will or power of God called into question. The word was repeated over and over again. God did not and does not change. It may be in our procedure or our understanding. There is certainly a lot of unbelief in the church. Many even deny that healing is for today. Some doubt the minister. I have even heard people who come forth for healing say they did not know if they were going to be healed. That is called unbelief. The scripture says you will be and that "you have to believe you have received" "when you pray." Yet I am willing to bet the vast majority do not do this or even know they should. They wait to see what happens and then attempt to resolve the will of God by their failed prayers. "I was not healed. Therefore, God did not want me healed. Therefore, God does not heal all who come forth to be healed."
In the end, we need not question the veracity of God's will or Word today because of what we see around us. The Word is still true regardless of what they or we think or see.

ByTheSpirit said:

In another popular thread here was are discussing this, but that thread is more about are we limited to how many healings. This is more about the practice of healing and maybe the way we go about it as being part of the problem in not seeing as many.

Click to expand...

Could people open themselves up to being tricked by counterfeit healings, if they are seeking healing ?

Aaron112 said:

Could people open themselves up to being tricked by counterfeit healings, if they are seeking healing ?

Click to expand...

That would be quite rare.

Satan is not in the business of healing Christians, he hates us.

Bobber said:

At the end of the day we need to veer away from making our assessments in regard to looking at things like this. What'd the ultimate deciding factor....it is what the Bible teaches about the subject.

Click to expand...

Does not the Bible show clearly there are many more false teachers, false prophets, than true teachers and true prophets ?

"false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their actions."

Bobber said:

Other people would have known about his history as well.

Click to expand...

Some did in deed and in truth, and a few or several spoke up and told the truth.



"20In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or exalts himself or strikes you in the face."

Guojing said:

There are answers, people just reach those answers at their own timing.

Click to expand...

Or rather as written, as God Pleases. His Timing.

Watchman1 said:

So, for 14 years being involved with healing teaching, meetings and conferences, I did not see even one person healed.

Click to expand...

I think if you found someone who was healing people regularly, you would have seen more.

Watchman1 said:

I remember asking my pastor, who had a Methodist Holiness background,

Click to expand...

Watchman1 said:

He said that the reason why people are not getting healed is due to shortcomings in the body of Christ.

Click to expand...

as in "MY people perish (not just sick) for lack of <experiential> knowledge"
<experiential> life with and in Jesus.

Aaron112 said:

Could people open themselves up to being tricked by counterfeit healings, if they are seeking healing ?

Click to expand...

You will see that happening during the tribulation (Matthew 24:24)

Aaron112 said:

Could people open themselves up to being tricked by counterfeit healings, if they are seeking healing ?

Click to expand...

While 90% of believers are being tricked out of the benefit of healing available to all, not to sweat the tiny few counterfeits.

SavedByGrace3 said:

While 90% of believers are being tricked out of the benefit of healing available to all, not to sweat the tiny few counterfeits.

Click to expand...

90% tricked by counterfeits is tiny few ?
Does anyplace in Scripture ever indicate that there are less than many false ? And more than a few true ?

Aaron112 said:

90% tricked by counterfeits is tiny few ?
Does anyplace in Scripture ever indicate that there are less than many false ? And more than a few true ?

Click to expand...

No... not tricked. Just ignorant of what the scripture says belongs to them. Healing has been provided to all believers in the atonement. 90% do not know it and so do not take it to themselves. They are just unaware of this benefit. It is sitting on the shelf there, an unopened gift.

Bobber said:

First I read your whole post and found it interesting. And I feel you and your story you're being sincere and you were wanting to believe the healing teachings. Now some of this is merely my opinion.....but those names you mentioned above in my assessment were evangelists with healing anointing. Kathryn Kuhlman, Allen and
God would give them words of knowledge and people were healed.

T L Osbrone largely ministered over seas and at the end of his book Healing the Sick it gives an incredible number of accounts of people that were saved and healed and spirits of infirmities leaving people's bodies. Having read through the account I do feel they are credible.

My own father in law, had a deformed heart and doctors said he would die before 21. They took him down in the States, laying in a van and he left the meeting healed and drove the vehicle home.


I was born again in 76. I acknowledge I shouldn't feel this way but how I wish thing were like that today. Even Christian music....there was just something about it that resonated spiritual devotion in me. Anyway. that's another topic.




So that sounds like a good testimony.


So you're wondering if that means all he said about healing prior was false? Thing is though we don't know, nor do I care to know why it happened to him. That's between him and God. Would it mean one is a horrible person if healing wasn't manifested. No. It's just a struggle living in this world at times. Many times people just get tired. Just going to Heaven can be considered a great victory too.

Click to expand...

I would conclude that my pastor died from natural causes. His time was up. He had fought a good fight for the Lord and it was his time to go. His death wasn't the cause of my skepticism. It was going to healing meeting after healing meeting in my city, hearing the promises, but no one actually being healed. But I learned in later years, that in the sponsoring church there were serious power struggles, jealousies, envies, gossiping and "kangaroo court" type dealing with people who didn't fit into what was "acceptable". So, with that in mind, I am not surprised that the Holy Spirit never got around to healing anyone. It proves the Scripture: "They who are in the flesh cannot please God." There were faithful men of God who tried to reform the church away from those works of the flesh, but they were sidelined and pressured out of the fellowship.

Bobber said:

I don't know why these people weren't healed. I don't doubt they weren't fine, good loving Christians who loved God. But we still must stay with the word. As I say I can't speak into their personal situations and you'd need a revelation from God in the Spirit to do that....exactly why Person A or B wasn't healed. Also I'm confident in most times God wouldn't give it. That's their business between them and me, kind of like when Peter asked Jesus what about John's future. He asked him what's that to you? John 21:22

I have to say this though and I don't know if it applies either of these individuals you mentioned and I don't care to know but A person CAN believe God heals today. One can even assert nobody believes in healing more that I? But here's one thing I see practically everywhere. If one comes to a prayer line and they're asked will you be healed now when I lay my hands on you and pray.....nearly everybody says, "I hope so!" But Jesus said you must believe you receive WHEN YOU PRAY....Mk 11:24.

If you truly believe you'll receive when you pray you won't say I hope so. You'll say with excitement YES, and AMEN. Well how can one know that? Well it comes right back to what do you actually believe the Bible teaches about it. Do you actually believe it's a covenant provision or not?

Click to expand...

There is plenty of support in Scripture, events in Church history, and many testimonies of healing from current healing efforts by godly and sincere ministries. We don't know why God heals one person yet leaves another sick and disabled. I think that God can see things we can't see, and one day when we are in glory we will have much more revealed to us, and we will have a greater understanding of it. I pray for people with the expectation that if God is willing, they will be healed. If they remain sick, I accepted God's sovereignty and give Him glory that He expresses confidence in a sick person that they, in spite of suffering remain faithful to the Lord and don't blame Him for not being healed.