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The Practical Joker On Christmas.

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busterdog

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Is the geneology of Jesus in Matthew accurate, or an error? I just heard a rather simple and clever answer on a radio program. The issue had been dogging me for years, because the text says there are fourteen generations from David to Jesus, but the text only seemed to list thirteen. It seems God has a sense of humor.

A couple of years ago, a professor of religion came onto the site to prove that the doctrine of inerrancy was demonstrably false. The example used was the Christmas story in Matthew, which counts the generations from Abraham to Jesus. There are supposed to be fourteen generations in each course noted. And in fact, scripture does list all fourteen, I would argue. However, you will see endless disputation for the proposition that I am wrong, not to mention other unwieldy proofs to support inerrancy. I think this is just an excellent practical joke.

What do you think? This is a question used by some to torture inerrant believers unnecessarily.

I did one thing for you that was really nice in this thread. I will do something else that might be a help to some or a nasty curveball to others.

Genesis 24

A Wife for Isaac

Abraham was now a very old man, and the Lord had blessed him in every way. 2 One day Abraham said to his oldest servant, the man in charge of his household, “Take an oath by putting your hand under my thigh. 3 Swear by the Lord, the God of heaven and earth, that you will not allow my son to marry one of these local Canaanite women. 4 Go instead to my homeland, to my relatives, and find a wife there for my son Isaac.”

The forgoing is something you will understand if you love listening to Chuck Missler.

The following shows the generations in question:
The Ancestors of Jesus the Messiah

1 This is a record of the ancestors of Jesus the Messiah, a descendant of David[a] and of Abraham: 2 Abraham was the father of Isaac.
Isaac was the father of Jacob.
Jacob was the father of Judah and his brothers.
3 Judah was the father of Perez and Zerah (whose mother was Tamar).
Perez was the father of Hezron.
Hezron was the father of Ram.[b]
4 Ram was the father of Amminadab.
Amminadab was the father of Nahshon.
Nahshon was the father of Salmon.
5 Salmon was the father of Boaz (whose mother was Rahab).
Boaz was the father of Obed (whose mother was Ruth).
Obed was the father of Jesse.
6 Jesse was the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon (whose mother was Bathsheba, the widow of Uriah).
7 Solomon was the father of Rehoboam.
Rehoboam was the father of Abijah.
Abijah was the father of Asa.[c]
8 Asa was the father of Jehoshaphat.
Jehoshaphat was the father of Jehoram.[d]
Jehoram was the father[e] of Uzziah.
9 Uzziah was the father of Jotham.
Jotham was the father of Ahaz.
Ahaz was the father of Hezekiah.
10 Hezekiah was the father of Manasseh.
Manasseh was the father of Amon.[f]
Amon was the father of Josiah.
11 Josiah was the father of Jehoiachin[g] and his brothers (born at the time of the exile to Babylon).
12 After the Babylonian exile:
Jehoiachin was the father of Shealtiel.
Shealtiel was the father of Zerubbabel.
13 Zerubbabel was the father of Abiud.
Abiud was the father of Eliakim.
Eliakim was the father of Azor.
14 Azor was the father of Zadok.
Zadok was the father of Akim.
Akim was the father of Eliud.
15 Eliud was the father of Eleazar.
Eleazar was the father of Matthan.
Matthan was the father of Jacob.
16 Jacob was the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary.
Mary gave birth to Jesus, who is called the Messiah.
17 All those listed above include fourteen generations from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the Babylonian exile, and fourteen from the Babylonian exile to the Messiah.
18 This is how Jesus the Messiah was born. His mother, Mary, was engaged to be married to Joseph. But before the marriage took place, while she was still a virgin, she became pregnant through the power of the Holy Spirit. 19 Joseph, her fiancé, was a good man and did not want to disgrace her publicly, so he decided to break the engagement[h] quietly. 20 As he considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream. “Joseph, son of David,” the angel said, “do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. For the child within her was conceived by the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will have a son, and you are to name him Jesus,[i] for he will save his people from their sins.”

Who sees the joker at work?
 
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laptoppop

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I'm feeling slow tonight -- what's the "solution"?

As for Christmas jokes, last year I gave my son an iPod that he had wanted badly. I wrapped it in a box with multiple layers of wrapping paper, including foil, duct tape, paper, etc. But the best part of the joke was that I put a CD in the box and hid the iPod under a false bottom on the box. Got him good. He was acting very gracious about it -- I only let him stay "gotten" for about 30 seconds before pointing him back toward the box. He didn't know whether to thwak me or hug me. He chose hug. ;)
 
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busterdog

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I'm feeling slow tonight -- what's the "solution"?

As for Christmas jokes, last year I gave my son an iPod that he had wanted badly. I wrapped it in a box with multiple layers of wrapping paper, including foil, duct tape, paper, etc. But the best part of the joke was that I put a CD in the box and hid the iPod under a false bottom on the box. Got him good. He was acting very gracious about it -- I only let him stay "gotten" for about 30 seconds before pointing him back toward the box. He didn't know whether to thwak me or hug me. He chose hug. ;)

Cute.

Yes, the prize is a bit of a tease.

The Misslerism is that the type of the Holy Spirit is always the unnamed servant. The anonymous servant gets a bride for Isaac.

The translation here was not the usual translation. Anyway, the Holy Spirit represents a generation, but He is not in the list by name.

This was one of the presentations by JR Church/Prophesy in the News just before Christmas.

Here is your prize for playing:

A little AMAZING Christmas music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMaubOI5flk

I have these two amazing ladies singing with me in the worship team. One of them sang this Christmas Eve. Such a beautiful carol.

And a bonus awesome piece of sung worship:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLZAWtdFhio

Now thats a singer!
 
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juvenissun

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Is the geneology of Jesus in Matthew accurate, or an error? I just heard a rather simple and clever answer on a radio program. The issue had been dogging me for years, because the text says there are fourteen generations from David to Jesus, but the text only seemed to list thirteen. It seems God has a sense of humor.

A couple of years ago, a professor of religion came onto the site to prove that the doctrine of inerrancy was demonstrably false. The example used was the Christmas story in Matthew, which counts the generations from Abraham to Jesus. There are supposed to be fourteen generations in each course noted. And in fact, scripture does list all fourteen, I would argue. However, you will see endless disputation for the proposition that I am wrong, not to mention other unwieldy proofs to support inerrancy. I think this is just an excellent practical joke.

Who sees the joker at work?

Do you have the solution?
If not, I have a version of it.
 
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mark kennedy

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Is the geneology of Jesus in Matthew accurate, or an error? I just heard a rather simple and clever answer on a radio program. The issue had been dogging me for years, because the text says there are fourteen generations from David to Jesus, but the text only seemed to list thirteen. It seems God has a sense of humor.

That's nothing BD, a textual error doesn't really do much damage. I remember fielding questions about a direct contradiction with regards to the order in which people entered the tomb after the resurrection. What you have to realize is that what is being tracked her is a bloodline. Still it does seem a little odd that Matthew would leave a name our or failed to count the generations.

A couple of years ago, a professor of religion came onto the site to prove that the doctrine of inerrancy was demonstrably false. The example used was the Christmas story in Matthew, which counts the generations from Abraham to Jesus. There are supposed to be fourteen generations in each course noted. And in fact, scripture does list all fourteen, I would argue. However, you will see endless disputation for the proposition that I am wrong, not to mention other unwieldy proofs to support inerrancy. I think this is just an excellent practical joke.

The Scriptures are inerrant in that they have not been substantially altered and represent a true lineage and account of events. If you ever look at the way numbers are calculated in the OT there are some pretty glaring math errors. I don't know, maybe Matthew didn't have a 100% complete genealogy or perhaps something has been lost since the autograph (original) was lost to time.

What do you think? This is a question used by some to torture inerrant believers unnecessarily.

I think it makes for an interesting puzzle, this one threw me for a long time:

Then there is the curious story of the fig tree, which always rather puzzled me. You remember what happened about the fig tree. "He was hungry; and seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, He came if haply He might find anything thereon; and when He came to it He found nothing but leaves, for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it: 'No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever' . . . and Peter . . . saith unto Him: 'Master, behold the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.'" This is a very curious story, because it was not the right time of year for figs, and you really could not blame the tree. (Why I Am Not A Christian
by Bertrand Russell)​

Strangely enough it was my interest in Biology that finally cleared it up for me. A fig tree even before their season should be bearing something, even an immature fig. What probably happened is that the tree was infertile, the proper thing to do was to cut it down and burn out the roots. Jesus just cursed it and it withered. I imagine there's an explanation like that for you little puzzle.

Ok, lets take a look at this:

A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
First Series
  1. Abraham was the father of Isaac,
  2. Isaac the father of Jacob,
  3. Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
  4. Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
  5. Perez the father of Hezron,
  6. Hezron the father of Ram,
  7. Ram the father of Amminadab,
  8. Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
  9. Nahshon the father of Salmon,
  10. Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
  11. Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
  12. Obed the father of Jesse,
  13. and Jesse the father of King David.
  14. David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah's wife,

Second Series:
  1. Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
  2. Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
  3. Abijah the father of Asa,
  4. Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
  5. Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
  6. Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
  7. Uzziah the father of Jotham,
  8. Jotham the father of Ahaz,
  9. Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
  10. Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
  11. Manasseh the father of Amon,
  12. Amon the father of Josiah,
  13. and Josiah the father of
  14. Jeconiah and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.

After the exile to Babylon:
  1. Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
  2. Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
  3. Zerubbabel the father of Abiud,
  4. Abiud the father of Eliakim,
  5. Eliakim the father of Azor,
  6. Azor the father of Zadok,
  7. Zadok the father of Akim,
  8. Akim the father of Eliud,
  9. Eliud the father of Eleazar,
  10. Eleazar the father of Matthan,
  11. Matthan the father of Jacob,
  12. and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born
  13. Jesus, who is called Christ.

Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ? :scratch:

I googled in and not only is that not the only problem with that genealogy the answer I encountered is a little puzzling as well:

There is a significant complication with this division - there are only 41 names listed in the direct line (including Jesus), not 42 (14x3). A number of explanations have been advanced to account for this numerical feature. One is that the Matthew 1:17 list 14 generations from Abraham to David (Inclusive of both Abraham and David), 14 generations from David to the exile (Inclusive of David and Josiah) and 14 from the exile to Jesus (inclusive of Jeconiah and Jesus) Thus, David's generation is counted twice. (Wikipedia)​

That was a good one BD, honestly, I"m just not sure. I'll have to take another look at it later.

Grace and peace,
Mark

By the way: I'm working on something I was wondering what you thought of it:

This is the quote that really got me going, you may know that I consider Darwinism metaphysics.

It’s clear, for example, that to the extent that Darwinian Evolution governs the development of life forms on this planet that is not an artifact of the Earth. Darwinian Evolution is a logic which is applicable to all life forms and all biosystems that may exist in the universe, even the ones we have not discovered.​

MIT OCW Introduction to Biology

I would fill you in on where I'm going with this but I don't want to spoil the surprise. ;)
 
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busterdog

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That's nothing BD, a textual error doesn't really do much damage.

Most of those errors end up being questions posed to the reader: Are you going to believe me or not? Lots of similar problems end up being that kind of answer. When you see the resolution of the problem, it seems that the text went of its way to create an ambiguity or apparent inconsistency that is often solved by where common sense takes you after you simply assume that God's word is inerrant.

Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

I think it makes for an interesting puzzle, this one threw me for a long time:
Then there is the curious story of the fig tree, which always rather puzzled me. You remember what happened about the fig tree. "He was hungry; and seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, He came if haply He might find anything thereon; and when He came to it He found nothing but leaves, for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it: 'No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever' . . . and Peter . . . saith unto Him: 'Master, behold the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.'" This is a very curious story, because it was not the right time of year for figs, and you really could not blame the tree. (Why I Am Not A Christian
by Bertrand Russell)​
Strangely enough it was my interest in Biology that finally cleared it up for me. A fig tree even before their season should be bearing something, even an immature fig. What probably happened is that the tree was infertile, the proper thing to do was to cut it down and burn out the roots. Jesus just cursed it and it withered. I imagine there's an explanation like that for you little puzzle.
Something like that possibly. However, guys who want to analyze the behavior of trees in terms of "fault" are probably not the guys I am going to for wisdom. :cool:


Ok, lets take a look at this:

A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
First Series
  1. Abraham was the father of Isaac,
  2. Isaac the father of Jacob,
  3. Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
  4. Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
  5. Perez the father of Hezron,
  6. Hezron the father of Ram,
  7. Ram the father of Amminadab,
  8. Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
  9. Nahshon the father of Salmon,
  10. Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
  11. Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
  12. Obed the father of Jesse,
  13. and Jesse the father of King David.
  14. David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah's wife,

Second Series:
  1. Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
  2. Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
  3. Abijah the father of Asa,
  4. Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
  5. Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
  6. Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
  7. Uzziah the father of Jotham,
  8. Jotham the father of Ahaz,
  9. Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
  10. Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
  11. Manasseh the father of Amon,
  12. Amon the father of Josiah,
  13. and Josiah the father of
  14. Jeconiah and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.

After the exile to Babylon:
  1. Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
  2. Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
  3. Zerubbabel the father of Abiud,
  4. Abiud the father of Eliakim,
  5. Eliakim the father of Azor,
  6. Azor the father of Zadok,
  7. Zadok the father of Akim,
  8. Akim the father of Eliud,
  9. Eliud the father of Eleazar,
  10. Eleazar the father of Matthan,
  11. Matthan the father of Jacob,
  12. and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born
  13. Jesus, who is called Christ.

Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ? :scratch:

14. The Holy Spirit.

The other thing is Jer. 22:

Thus says the LORD:
"Write this man down as childless,
A man who shall not prosper in his days;
For none of his descendants shall prosper,
Sitting on the throne of David,
And ruling anymore in Judah."'

Jeremiah 22:30

Now, I have never quite understood the various ways that this is used to explain the issue. Most of the essays are very wordy and confusing. However, I think what is said is that the child of Jeconiah is literally unwritten due to Jer. 22. And of course, this curse on Jeconiah is one reason that the line of Joseph is not biologically related to Jesus, though, by adoption, the cursed line of humanity is honored with fatherhood by mercy and the word of the Holy Spirit.




This is the quote that really got me going, you may know that I consider Darwinism metaphysics.
It’s clear, for example, that to the extent that Darwinian Evolution governs the development of life forms on this planet that is not an artifact of the Earth. Darwinian Evolution is a logic which is applicable to all life forms and all biosystems that may exist in the universe, even the ones we have not discovered.​

Ha! Sooner or later their cover is blown. I am surprised, but I shouldnt be. That's funny. At least they dont mention God, because THAT would be unscientific.
 
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juvenissun

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I will use Mark's nice list to make my explanation. The counting goes from the first person to the last person in one series. No name should be repeated in two series.

First Series
  1. Abraham
  2. Isaac
  3. Jacob
  4. Judah
  5. Perez
  6. Hezron
  7. Ram
  8. Amminadab
  9. Nahshon
  10. Salmon
  11. Boaz
  12. Obed
  13. and Jesse
  14. David

Second Series:
  1. Solomon
  2. Rehoboam
  3. Abijah
  4. Asa
  5. Jehoshaphat
  6. Jehoram
  7. Uzziah
  8. Jotham
  9. Ahaz
  10. Hezekiah
  11. Manasseh
  12. Amon
  13. and Josiah
  14. Jeconiah

There is no problem on the first two series of 14-generation.

After the exile to Babylon:
  1. Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
  2. Shealtiel
  3. Zerubbabel
  4. Abiud
  5. Eliakim
  6. Azor
  7. Zadok
  8. Akim
  9. Eliud
  10. Eleazar
  11. Matthan
  12. and Jacob
    [*]Joseph
  13. Jesus

Notice that Jeconiah is counted twice at the end of series II and at the beginning of series III. If the first person on the series III became a legitimate count, then the problem is solved. But, the problem is right there.

There are many commentaries talked about the kingship heir of Jeconiah (example link). But my very simple view is this: If we compared the genealogy between Matt and Luke, it is very clear that the difference started from Solomon's son all the way down to Jesus. However, the lineage miraculous converged briefly right on Shealtiel (Salathiel in KJV) and Zorobabel. According to Luke, Shealtiel is the son of Neri, rather than Joconiah.

So, my simple solution is to take Neri as the first person of the series III. That will solve the 14-generation problem.
 
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