The power of God when a preacher admits he was wrong.

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
13,392
1,701
✟164,236.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
Are you saying that no one is called into healing ministry?

Is there a healing type of ministry from The Lord? Let's find out,....

1Co 12:27 Now ye are Christ's body, and severally members thereof.
1Co 12:28 And God, indeed, set some in the assembly: first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; after that, miracles; then, gifts of healings, helps, governments, various kinds of tongues.


Paul already went over what gifts were available to the body, the list here includes offices and ministries in an hierarchal structure.

As we see the list includes "gifts of healings" in succession, so yes, there is such a thing as a healing ministry from GOD for the body of Christ.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pioneer3mm
Upvote 0

AbbaLove

Circumcism Of The Heart
May 16, 2015
2,493
761
✟120,608.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
There is no such thing as a healing ministry mentioned in the New Testament.
The NT ministry is all about healing, deliverance, spiritual renewal. His healing ministry is still active today - as it was 2000 years ago.
All nine supernatural Gifts are in operation today. One may receive the Gift of Healing "distributing to each one individually as He wills."

You come across as if you don't believe the Lord's supernatural Gift of healing is for today's church (ecclesia) chosen, called out ones.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

jiminpa

Senior Member
Site Supporter
Jul 4, 2004
4,082
760
✟284,013.00
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
There is no such thing as a healing ministry mentioned in the New Testament. This is why most if not all those who purport to have a healing ministry are unable to do more than talk about healing, and cannot produce actual evidence of any significant healing. A prominent healing "ministry" was asked to produce just five medical reports validating his claims of healing of significant medical issues. He couldn't do it. So, if God chooses not to answer their prayers for healing, it is a foregone conclusion that I choose not to put any confidence in their prayers if I at any time needed healing.
So can we lay hands on the sick and expect them to recover, in Jesus's name?
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,819
10,795
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟833,852.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
The NT ministry is all about healing, deliverance, spiritual renewal. His healing ministry is still active today - as it was 2000 years ago.
All nine supernatural Gifts are in operation today. One may receive the Gift of Healing "distributing to each one individually as He wills."

You come across as if you don't believe the Lord's supernatural Gift of healing is for today's church (ecclesia) chosen, called out ones.
It is, according to 1 Corinthians 12, as our brother Arbiter01 has pointed out. The issue is that it seems that the Holy Spirit has not distributed the gift to anyone in our modern churches, otherwise we would know all about it. If anyone in any of our churches has the gift of healing and people were being authentically healed of heart disease, cancer, cerebral palsy, blindness, and other various disabilities, he would be overwhelmed with the tens of thousands of people making pilgrimages to his church. He would make Benny Hinn's crusades look like a back yard barbecue party. And it would be on the front page of every prominent newspaper in the country. But there is no evidence of it anywhere.
 
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
13,392
1,701
✟164,236.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
It is, according to 1 Corinthians 12, as our brother Arbiter01 has pointed out. The issue is that it seems that the Holy Spirit has not distributed the gift to anyone in our modern churches, otherwise we would know all about it. If anyone in any of our churches has the gift of healing and people were being authentically healed of heart disease, cancer, cerebral palsy, blindness, and other various disabilities, he would be overwhelmed with the tens of thousands of people making pilgrimages to his church. He would make Benny Hinn's crusades look like a back yard barbecue party. And it would be on the front page of every prominent newspaper in the country. But there is no evidence of it anywhere.
You are exactly correct.

It isn't happening anywhere in the body of Christ. We can't ignore the obvious right in front of our faces.

Ok,... but why not?

Whelp,..... it takes a lot of time invested with GOD, and most Christians won't give that to Him. That's about the easiest way to explain it without getting into the specifics of anointing and such.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,819
10,795
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟833,852.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
So can we lay hands on the sick and expect them to recover, in Jesus's name?
That's what the New Testament indicates. But in most cases it is not happening and no one really knows the reason why, except that the WOF people say it is through a lack of faith in the sick person. So do we blame the person for not having the faith to be healed, or do we blame the person laying on of hands for not having enough faith? If John Wesley's horse had enough faith to be healed of its lameness, then you would think that many would have more faith than that for their healing!

Perhaps we should look elsewhere. Perhaps the Holy Spirit is not supporting it and not many people are prepared to spend time in prayer seeking Him to let them know why so they can better align themselves with God's will concerning healing of the sick.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,819
10,795
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟833,852.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
You are exactly correct.

It isn't happening anywhere in the body of Christ. We can't ignore the obvious right in front of our faces.

Ok,... but why not?

Whelp,..... it takes a lot of time invested with GOD, and most Christians won't give that to Him. That's about the easiest way to explain it without getting into the specifics of anointing and such.
I have no idea. I have done comprehensive research on the ministry of healing. I have read the books of most of the healing ministries of the 1960s-through to the present day. I did a research paper for my M.Div, entitled, "The Healing Ministry Then and Now" where I examined it through Scripture, church history, and current ministry practices.

There is no doubt according to Scripture that there should be people with the gifts of healing in our churches. Also, James clearly points out that church elders have the ability to lay hands on sick people and the Lord "will raise them up." Also Luke says, "These signs shall follow those who believe...they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover." Evidence from the book of Acts supported it, along with the writing of the early church fathers, right through to Augustine (who originally was cessationist, but so many people were getting healed in his church, he changed his view and tried to convince the hierarchy in Rome without much success). It is interesting that John Wesley had 250 documented and validated healings during his ministry, including his horse. One notable healing was through St Benedict, where a worker at the Cassino monastery was crushed by falling masonry and his dead body was brought to him. St Benedict got down and prayed alongside the body, and immediately the man was raised from the dead and went back to work (no accident compensation for him!). I have Guy Bevington's book (a Methodist Holiness evangelist) where he relates a number of amazing conversions, and healing, one example of a man totally healed of tuberculosis, and Bevington himself being healed of a badly burned foot after having boiling water spilled on it. We're not talking about headaches or backaches here. Bevington himself was cessationist as far as healing went, at first, but when he observed that a man's crushed thumb was totally healed, he was convinced that Jesus does heal today and he threw away all his own medications and trusted God for his own healing when he got sick on a couple of occasions. But then in preparation to preaching, he would fast and pray until he got a vision that confirmed God's will. At one stage he got into a hollow log for three weeks, and when he got really hungry and started to starve, he was fed by squirrels until he got the vision of the school room door opening. He went and had a major revival there. Then he went back to see if the squirrels were actually using the hollow log to store their winter food, but those squirrels never went back there.

I have no doubt that in the early days of the Pentecostal movement, including the ministry of Smith Wigglesworth, genuine healing took place. But it was difficult to get validation through medical reports, because in those times, people were being taught that it was a sin - a lack of faith - to go to the doctor. Maybe medicine had not yet had the advances that it has today.

So, I have no doubt that the will of God is that sick and disabled people are healed through prayer and the laying on of hands. It is a puzzle to me why it is not happening in a widespread way around our churches, including the Pentecostal and Charismatic. I am sure that many genuine healing ministries are sincere, Jesus glorifying people, who are disappointed and frustrated that it is not happening for them. Instead we have other ministries who are making great claims and blaming people for not having enough faith when healing does not result. Benny Hinn, Reinhard Bonnke, the late Oral Roberts, Kenneth Copeland, the best examples of the modern healing ministry, are having the same lack of actual results in spite of their ambitious promises and assurances that if people have enough faith they will be healed.

So it is not that I am cessationist as far as healing in our modern church. It is that although Scripture and church history supports divine healing, I don't see it happening in our current churches, and I don't really know why.
 
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
13,392
1,701
✟164,236.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
It is a puzzle to me why it is not happening in a widespread way around our churches, including the Pentecostal and Charismatic.
It's not a puzzle to me.

Ministry gifts require The Holy Spirit to operate them. This is the same with the corporate use of tongues and interpretation, and the gift of prophesying. The genuine use of the gift in the assembly requires The Holy Spirit to operate it.

It is a ministry to the body of Christ, not some sort of faith healing position. It requires GOD operating in power for the healing to take place, and that requires GOD resting upon you in power,... just like Jesus told the disciples in Acts 1 "Ye shall receive power at the arrival of The Holy Spirit upon thee."

This all requires much time with GOD, and people just don't see the importance of doing that with GOD, hence why there is no one operating in this gift currently.
 
Upvote 0

hislegacy

Memories pre 2021
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
43,934
14,018
Broken Arrow, OK
✟703,014.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It is, according to 1 Corinthians 12, as our brother Arbiter01 has pointed out. The issue is that it seems that the Holy Spirit has not distributed the gift to anyone in our modern churches, otherwise we would know all about it. If anyone in any of our churches has the gift of healing and people were being authentically healed of heart disease, cancer, cerebral palsy, blindness, and other various disabilities, he would be overwhelmed with the tens of thousands of people making pilgrimages to his church. He would make Benny Hinn's crusades look like a back yard barbecue party. And it would be on the front page of every prominent newspaper in the country. But there is no evidence of it anywhere.



Spirit-Filled, Pentecostal and/or Charismatic believers can be from ANY Christian Denomination. They are those who believe that all the various spiritual gifts (or charisms) listed in the New Testament (including but not limited to the manifestations gifts found in I Corinthians 12:8-10) are active in the Church today and desirable in the life of the individual believer, for the edification of the Body of Christ.​
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,819
10,795
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟833,852.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
It's not a puzzle to me.

Ministry gifts require The Holy Spirit to operate them. This is the same with the corporate use of tongues and interpretation, and the gift of prophesying. The genuine use of the gift in the assembly requires The Holy Spirit to operate it.

It is a ministry to the body of Christ, not some sort of faith healing position. It requires GOD operating in power for the healing to take place, and that requires GOD resting upon you in power,... just like Jesus told the disciples in Acts 1 "Ye shall receive power at the arrival of The Holy Spirit upon thee."

This all requires much time with GOD, and people just don't see the importance of doing that with GOD, hence why there is no one operating in this gift currently.
I certainly don't have an argument against that. After listening to Curry Blake's CD set on becoming a Healing Technician, where he makes some excellent points, I decided that I would offer prayer for healing to everyone who came across my path who had a medical condition. That took a bit of courage on my part and had some interesting encounters. Every person I approached was willing and happy to receive prayer. I did it in a non dramatic way by putting my hand on their wrist and saying, "Jesus heals you." I did that for my work team leader who was having arthritis in her knee. When she went back to the doctor, he couldn't find the arthritis, even though it showed up on the initial xray. He concluded it was a "temporary" arthritis. During a team session after that, when the team leader related how that her arthritic knee had come right, a Christian workmate said, "That was after [Oscarr] prayed for it!" That was a powerful Christian testimony to my secular workmates at that time. I also prayed for a young woman in the gym I attended. She was on two crutches because of a foot injury where she had dropped a 20Kg bar on it. A week later she came back on just one crutch, pointed it out that she needed just the one crutch, and thanked me, in front of everyone, for the "blessing". She was not a professing Christian. Just recently I prayed for a visiting preacher who had the 90 day cough. She said on her next visit that the cough disappeared the next day and she knew it was the result of my prayer for her. None of these were dramatic healings, but more like everyday ones; but it showed me, that when I obey the Holy Spirit, things happen.

It's like someone playing lotto. They never win the big prize and probably won't, but gets a small $20 one often enough to cover payment of the tickets. When I put my hand on someone's wrist and say, "Jesus heals you" I may not get the jackpot of someone getting up out of a wheelchair, or being healed of cancer, but simple healing like someone's knee arthritis, injured foot, the 90 day cough, or in the case of a lady being healed of a chronic back condition after a healing conference I conducted where I got almost the whole congregation to come forward and pray for her, and her having the first pain-free sleep in years, made running that conference well worth while, and provided a good testimony to that pastor and his church that Jesus does heal today. So, maybe praying for sick people is a bit like playing lotto. If you're not in you won't win. I think there is a Scripture that talks about casting your bread upon many waters.

Perhaps we need to continue praying for sick people, not with results in mind, but because we want to act in obedience to God's Word.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
13,392
1,701
✟164,236.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
Perhaps we need to continue praying for sick people, not with results in mind, but because we want to act in obedience to God's Word.
You and I are talking two different things.

I'm talking about a ministry in the assembly from The Holy Spirit where He does the healing and we are simply an instrument of His righteousness, where He does it all and receives the credit.

You're talking about trying to operate the gift through prayer and faith in the written word.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,819
10,795
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟833,852.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
You and I are talking two different things.

I'm talking about a ministry in the assembly from The Holy Spirit where He does the healing and we are simply an instrument of His righteousness, where He does it all and receives the credit.

You're talking about trying to operate the gift through prayer and faith in the written word.
The ministry of healing is as James points out. It is when the sick person calls for the elders of the church to pray over him that the Lord will raise him up. It is interesting to me that it is the sick person who calls for the elders to minister to him, and not the other way around when the elders decide to have a "healing service" and invite sick people to attend.

This means that as part of the church service, not any member is in a position to pray for the sick. It is the function of the church elders to perform that ministry. I was, and still am, able to pray for sick people in my church because I am an ordained elder of the Presbyterian Church. But when I am somewhere else, I am not performing the function of a church elder, but as just a ordinary believer, and so I can quite happily pray for sick people in accordance with Mark 16 where it says, "These signs shall follow those who believe...they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover."
 
Upvote 0

jiminpa

Senior Member
Site Supporter
Jul 4, 2004
4,082
760
✟284,013.00
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
That's what the New Testament indicates. But in most cases it is not happening and no one really knows the reason why, except that the WOF people say it is through a lack of faith in the sick person. So do we blame the person for not having the faith to be healed, or do we blame the person laying on of hands for not having enough faith? If John Wesley's horse had enough faith to be healed of its lameness, then you would think that many would have more faith than that for their healing!

Perhaps we should look elsewhere. Perhaps the Holy Spirit is not supporting it and not many people are prepared to spend time in prayer seeking Him to let them know why so they can better align themselves with God's will concerning healing of the sick.
So, we should consider experience, (lack of healings that meet your criteria), superior to scripture?
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,819
10,795
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟833,852.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
So, we should consider experience, (lack of healings that meet your criteria), superior to scripture?
It's not a matter of experience being superior or inferior to Scripture. I mean that experience is not matching Scripture in most cases. The Scripture in Mark 16 says, "These signs shall follow those who believe...they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover." Although the signs did follow the believers at the time when Mark wrote his Gospel, but they don't follow the believers today. It is not that the Scripture is at fault, nor is it because God has decided that the signs don't follow believers any longer. It is something else that is preventing the Scripture being fulfilled in our time and we haven't discovered it yet.
 
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
13,392
1,701
✟164,236.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
The ministry of healing is as James points out. It is when the sick person calls for the elders of the church to pray over him that the Lord will raise him up. It is interesting to me that it is the sick person who calls for the elders to minister to him, and not the other way around when the elders decide to have a "healing service" and invite sick people to attend.

This means that as part of the church service, not any member is in a position to pray for the sick. It is the function of the church elders to perform that ministry. I was, and still am, able to pray for sick people in my church because I am an ordained elder of the Presbyterian Church. But when I am somewhere else, I am not performing the function of a church elder, but as just a ordinary believer, and so I can quite happily pray for sick people in accordance with Mark 16 where it says, "These signs shall follow those who believe...they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover."
There are numerous ways for a person to be healed by GOD in scripture.

You are describing one way by the use of the elders in the church and the prayer of faith, and I am describing the operation of the gifts of healings by The Holy Spirit in the assembly as a ministry. Two completely different methods.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,819
10,795
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟833,852.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
There are numerous ways for a person to be healed by GOD in scripture.

You are describing one way by the use of the elders in the church and the prayer of faith, and I am describing the operation of the gifts of healings by The Holy Spirit in the assembly as a ministry. Two completely different methods.
Yep. That's the theory alright. Looking forward to seeing it happen, hopefully in the few years I have left.
 
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
13,392
1,701
✟164,236.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
Yep. That's the theory alright. Looking forward to seeing it happen, hopefully in the few years I have left.
Well we will see. Satan is trying his hardest right now to not allow such things in the church and make believers forget all about them, but GOD has a way of stepping all over those plans.

A person with such a ministry is dedicated to their local assembly. GOD can have them visit other churches at times to operate in them, but not always, if at all really.
 
Upvote 0

jiminpa

Senior Member
Site Supporter
Jul 4, 2004
4,082
760
✟284,013.00
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
It's not a matter of experience being superior or inferior to Scripture. I mean that experience is not matching Scripture in most cases. The Scripture in Mark 16 says, "These signs shall follow those who believe...they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover." Although the signs did follow the believers at the time when Mark wrote his Gospel, but they don't follow the believers today. It is not that the Scripture is at fault, nor is it because God has decided that the signs don't follow believers any longer. It is something else that is preventing the Scripture being fulfilled in our time and we haven't discovered it yet.
Maybe it's generations of teaching that God doesn't do miracles anymore. Maybe it's people who never miss an opportunity to criticize the gifts. Maybe if Jesus Himself appeared on your doorstep and grew limbs on a quadriplegic it would not meet your standard of a bona-fide healing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hislegacy
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,819
10,795
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟833,852.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Maybe it's generations of teaching that God doesn't do miracles anymore. Maybe it's people who never miss an opportunity to criticize the gifts. Maybe if Jesus Himself appeared on your doorstep and grew limbs on a quadriplegic it would not meet your standard of a bona-fide healing.
Maybe. Although Jesus did heal a lame man by the pool of Bethesda, a man in a synagogue who had a withered hand,
and a paralytic lowered through the roof, there is no record that He grew limbs on an amputee. But John said that Jesus did much more than what was recorded and what was recorded was enough for us to know and trust Him as the Son of God who saves us from our sins. So, it could be possible that He might have provided new limbs to amputees,

By the way, my standard means nothing; not worth even mentioning.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

jiminpa

Senior Member
Site Supporter
Jul 4, 2004
4,082
760
✟284,013.00
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
By the way, my standard means nothing; not worth even mentioning.
While I absolutely agree with that statement, you do try to hold contemporaries to your standard, with almost every post you make, so it must mean something to you.
 
Upvote 0