The Pope

[Benedicta00]

I know many Protestants who also give lip service. Lip service is not exclusively found in the Catholic Church.

I know many Protestants who run around claming (bragging really) that they are "saved" while they treat people around them like dirt under their feet. You know the saying, “I’d be a Christian if I ever actually met one.” Christian is, as Christian does.

I take offense that you think Catholics can be save in spite of the Church.

You misunderstand Catholicism on a very large scale; you simply aren’t dealing with the facts. You are entitled to your own opinions but not to your own facts. Nothing you said here is factual.

You present a few false dichotomies You have this either/or impression that we chose the Church over Christ when actually the Church belongs to Christ and it is Christ ministry continued on earth as he went up and took his place at the right side.

The pope IS one with all of the Church he is first among equals, the greatest servant among us, he does not rule us, he serves us and Christ IS the head of the Church the pope serves.

Next, a priest does not forgive sins; Christ does through the ministry of his Church.

If anyone here blasphemes, it is you against Christ’s very own bride, his Church. Please do not call us blasphemers anymore, it is rude and untrue.

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

He is no different than the rest of us ...

So you are the pastor of the Catholic Church too?

 

[simwells]

just to say, She was at the Vatican as part of a school trip, she's not being hypocritical

 

[Metanoia02]

The proper title fo rthis thread is:
Da' Pope

 

[ThreeAM]

It's that cool hat.

I have always admired the Popemobile.

 

[ThreeAM]

I know many Protestants who also give lip service. Lip service is not exclusively found in the Catholic Church.

I know many Protestants who run around claming (bragging really) that they are "saved" while they treat people around them like dirt under their feet. You know the saying, “I’d be a Christian if I ever actually met one.” Christian is, as Christian does.

I take offense that you think Catholics can be save in spite of the Church.

You misunderstand Catholicism on a very large scale; you simply aren’t dealing with the facts. You are entitled to your own opinions but not to your own facts. Nothing you said here is factual.

You present a few false dichotomies You have this either/or impression that we chose the Church over Christ when actually the Church belongs to Christ and it is Christ ministry continued on earth as he went up and took his place at the right side.

The pope IS one with all of the Church he is first among equals, the greatest servant among us, he does not rule us, he serves us and Christ IS the head of the Church the pope serves.

Next, a priest does not forgive sins; Christ does through the ministry of his Church.

If anyone here blasphemes, it is you against Christ’s very own bride, his Church. Please do not call us blasphemers anymore, it is rude and untrue.

Just curious what is your position on protestants can we be saved inspite of the fact that we reject the catholic church?

 

[bexe]

I have a question since I think the one about the Pope is being answered. My answer on that is that we don't idolize him, we respect him and there are around 1.1 billion Catholics...so lines can get long if even a fraction of us show up.

But my question: When you say to get into the Vatican, do you mean for a papal mass or daily audience or just to go into the Vatican.

The size of the line and the visitors to the Vatican can be based on alot of things:

1.) There to see the art
2.) Tourists
3) Class trips
4) People just curious
5) There for the history and to study the dome of St. Peter's. As far as architecture goes that dome is almost impossible given the technology when it was done.
6) and also Catholic Pilgrims

I'm just curious if it was a line to specifically see the pope or if it the length could have been for many reasons and contained many non-Catholics. What made me think of that is depending on how recently he might not have even been there since he was just in Poland. Your question is valid either way, I was just curious.

It was a class trip to rome, we went to see the vatican building, it was easter weekend. All the more busy!

 

[Benedicta00]

Just curious what is your position on protestants can we be saved inspite of the fact that we reject the catholic church?

But you really don't reject the Church (what she teaches pertaining to salvation) you just refuse to be under her authority.

No one is “saved” in spite of his or her faith. The faith we are talking about here is Jesus Christ and we are “saved” through Jesus Christ.

We are saved because we have been incorporated into his death and resurrection. If I’m saved, if you’re saved, if the man down the street is saved it is because of Christ’s death and resurrection and God applying Christ’s merits to us and incorporating us into His son’s death and resurrection.

This is how God adopts us out of Adam’s ‘family’ we are all born into and makes us His children born again into His own family. We go from perishable seed to impressible seed.

Yes, it was the Catholic Church who Christ established and commissioned, sent out to teach all nations, baptizing them and that is what the Church indeed did and this truth that Protestantism contains comes from the Catholic Church.

It is what the various different reformers didn’t throw out when each one decided to ‘reform’ Christ’s Church and reform one another’s church too.

So to say Catholics can be saved in spite of the Catholic Church doesn’t make any sense. Protestants in essence are saying the same thing about themselves.

It is the same as saying Christians (Protestants included) are saved in spite of the truth, in spite of Christanity.

We are saved by the truth in spite of the truth? That's an oxymoron is what that is.

 

[simonthezealot]

Simon says...

Here is what i find interesting...

Act 10:25,26 Peter forbid Cornelius to bow to him because he was a man, aren’t modern popes men then too. Yet they allow and expect this.
Matthew 23:9 expressly forbids calling any man father as a religious title, yet the word pope originally meant father catholic dictionary page 667 modern popes and priests wear the very title forbid by Christ.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

It's that cool hat.

The pope was scheduled to give a speech before the UN in NYC.

His flight was a little late so the pope hopped into a cab and told the driver to step on it and get him to the UN, post haste.

In heavy traffic the pope was getting impatient and began telling the driver to go faster.

The driver turned around and informed the pope that he had too many tickets already and another one for speeding would result in loss of his license.

So, the pope told him to stop the car and let him drive.

Soon thereafter a NYC cop pulled them over for speeding and wreckless driving.

When the cop came up to the driver's window, he saw the pope, turned around without a word, walked back to his squadcar, and radioed his precinct to send a motorcade.

When they asked him who the motorcade was for, the cop replied;

"I don't know for sure, but he's somebody real important because he has the pope driving for him."

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

The pope was scheduled to give a speech before the UN in NYC.

His flight was a little late so the pope hopped into a cab and told the driver to step on it and get him to the UN, post haste.

In heavy traffic the pope was getting impatient and began telling the driver to go faster.

The driver turned around and informed the pope that he had too many tickets already and another one for speeding would result in loss of his license.

So, the pope told him to stop the car and let him drive.

Soon thereafter a NYC cop pulled them over for speeding and wreckless driving.

When the cop came up to the driver's window, he saw the pope, turned around without a word, walked back to his squadcar, and radioed his precinct to send a motorcade.

When they asked him who the motorcade was for, the cop replied;

"I don't know for sure, but he's somebody real important because he has the pope driving for him."

ROTFL. Kudos AWC, I love it. That is a great one. Well done.


Yours in Christ.

 

[Debi1967]

The pope was scheduled to give a speech before the UN in NYC.

His flight was a little late so the pope hopped into a cab and told the driver to step on it and get him to the UN, post haste.

In heavy traffic the pope was getting impatient and began telling the driver to go faster.

The driver turned around and informed the pope that he had too many tickets already and another one for speeding would result in loss of his license.

So, the pope told him to stop the car and let him drive.

Soon thereafter a NYC cop pulled them over for speeding and wreckless driving.

When the cop came up to the driver's window, he saw the pope, turned around without a word, walked back to his squadcar, and radioed his precinct to send a motorcade.

When they asked him who the motorcade was for, the cop replied;

"I don't know for sure, but he's somebody real important because he has the pope driving for him."

ROFL

 

[Debi1967]

Edited for consistency

Jesus was also quite clear that this is not Blasphemy as you proclaim

Joh 20:21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.
Joh 20:22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.
Joh 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

It would seem that Jesus himself gave to them the Authority to accept, forgive and retain the sins of the one confessing to them.... How then is it Blasphemous?

Edited for consistency

Now this really gets me... to make broad strake judgements of people simply because you do not agree with their way of looking at things...

Since first of all I knew enough about the Bible in the first place to be able to show you what CHRIST Himself said to the Apostles, this would devalue this statement right here. I obviously knew enough about Christ and care enough about Christ my Lord and Saviour.

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Jesus was also quite clear that this is not Blasphemy as you proclaim

Joh 20:21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.
Joh 20:22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.
Joh 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

It would seem that Jesus himself gave to them the Authority to accept, forgive and retain the sins of the one confessing to them.... How then is it Blasphemous?

Now this really gets me... to make broad strake judgements of people simply because you do not agree with their way of looking at things... .

Same thoughts I had

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

ROTFL. Kudos AWC, I love it. That is a great one. Well done.


Yours in Christ.

A little comic relief is good on Fridays.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I have always admired the Popemobile.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Act 10:25,26 Peter forbid Cornelius to bow to him because he was a man, aren’t modern popes men then too. Yet they allow and expect this.

From a purely Protestant perspective (especially American Protestant), the papacy can be a puzzle...


Protestants, of course, do not accept the interpretation and application of the singular verse which is used to support that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ and head of the Christian church. The whole basis of all this is not accepted. Othrodox Christians are not altogether in agreement with the RCC on this either.


Protestants are furthermore puzzeled by the Dogma of the Infallibility of the Papacy. Not accepting the whole "Vicar of Christ" argument and finding not a verse to support this idea, they are left with a huge question mark and an implication of amazing ego. Add Unam Sanctum to this, and and question mark is likely to turn into a frown.


In America especially, "pomp" can lead some with a bad feeling. Jesus stressed humility, as it seems did the Apostles. In Europe, there is greater comfort with this custom (in Europe, Lutherans and Anglicans are little different in this regard). In America, this is sometimes seen as pompous, prideful and self-centered. It is a largely cultural thing.


I think we've all seen it. The Pope, among some Catholics, is treated like a star. We've all seen the people jumping, shouting, crying and more. When such is focused at Brittney Spears or the Beatles in the 1960's or Elvis in the 1950's, we "get" it - when it's the Pope, some wonder what is going on? Is this Christian? In my Catholic church, there was a bit of this by a few Catholics - and it did strike me as very odd. It did some Catholics, too.


I think that most Protestants have little problem understanding the VERY Roman, epistcopal, authoritarian structure of the RCC and that a person can serve as an unquestioned, infallible, all-powerful head of such an organization FOR such an organization. The political aspects of it are understood. The religious aspects of it are less so. The "Vicar of Christ" title, the implications that he is properly OUR "papa" too and speaks for and to us, Unam Sanctum, the DOGMA of infallibility - I think that's where question marks arise for many Protestants.

On a personal level, I think most Protestants respect the Pope. On a political level within that denomination, I don't think most Protestants have any problem.



I'd hope Catholics can understand this.
It is, often, more the result of a puzzle than anything negative.



IMO, I view the Pope as the top of the leadership of a denomination. Nothing more, nothing less. Most (all in recent centuries) have been extremely noble and spiritual men, excellent representatives of Christianity, fine churchmen, and often good leaders. Since the RCC is the world's largest denomination and one I hold in great esteem, I deeply respect that office. But I do so only for that denomination. THAT denomination may consider his proclaimations conditionally infallible for THEM if they so choose (okay by me), but I reject the DOGMA such. I don't consider it different than a Protestant denomination that agrees that the decisions of some body will be binding for that denomination. While I'm mystified by the "fans" and near cult-like adoration some have, I don't condemn it. While I understand all the pomp and ceremony is simply cultural, I've LOVE to see the Pope in jeans and a t-shirt helping to build a hospital in Nigeria or orphanage in Bolivia, or maybe feeding a child with AIDS (shades of Mother Theresa.... and Jesus). But that's just me. If the Pope wants to hire me for a PR consultant, I'm available, I need a good paying summer job.


Pax.



- Josiah



.

 

[a_ntv]

Americans have a history of only 4 centuries. It is not easy to deal with a history of many centuries. European protestants and orthodoxs understand that, so they simply consider the pope as the first bishop of CC Church.
On the other hand, CC never required the believe of papal primaryship as necessary for salvation: orthodoxes churches are considered 'schismatic', but antway full of any grace.

About history, I ld like to point out a very important fact:
Papal supremacy arose in about X XI century. The problem was the indipendece of the Church.
Nowaday there is the US Constitution, so Mr Bush do not appoint the bishops or the elders.
From Costantine to about the XII century, the Emperor had such a power.
In the high-middle age the Emperor of Germany (and the king of France and the Emeperor of Bisanzio and any other political leaders) appointed directly the bishops (that had also a huge political power)
So there was a long and heavy 'war' beween the popes and the emeperos, where the pope highlighted his petrine supremacy to have the right to appoint bishops.
So, after some centuries the results were (more or less):
- the pope appointed the bishops
- the bishops lost their political power
- the separation between the church and the state started
- the pope supremacy was so highlighted that was no more forgetable.

Separation between Church and State is not a US conquest, but many men worked and suffered for that centuries before.

 

[ThreeAM]

But you really don't reject the Church (what she teaches pertaining to salvation) you just refuse to be under her authority.

No one is “saved” in spite of his or her faith. The faith we are talking about here is Jesus Christ and we are “saved” through Jesus Christ.

We are saved because we have been incorporated into his death and resurrection. If I’m saved, if you’re saved, if the man down the street is saved it is because of Christ’s death and resurrection and God applying Christ’s merits to us and incorporating us into His son’s death and resurrection.

This is how God adopts us out of Adam’s ‘family’ we are all born into and makes us His children born again into His own family. We go from perishable seed to impressible seed.

Yes, it was the Catholic Church who Christ established and commissioned, sent out to teach all nations, baptizing them and that is what the Church indeed did and this truth that Protestantism contains comes from the Catholic Church.

It is what the various different reformers didn’t throw out when each one decided to ‘reform’ Christ’s Church and reform one another’s church too.

So to say Catholics can be saved in spite of the Catholic Church doesn’t make any sense. Protestants in essence are saying the same thing about themselves.

It is the same as saying Christians (Protestants included) are saved in spite of the truth, in spite of Christanity.

We are saved by the truth in spite of the truth? That's an oxymoron is what that is.

Oh but I do reject what the Catholic Church teachs on many things.

I guess what I saying is as a catholic you do not accept the things my chuch teaches. As a protestant I don't accept much of what your church teaches. I believe that God will save many Catholics because they are Christians. I hope that you have the same opinion of protestants. I think that God's grace will cover any mistakes we make in understanding. So I wouldn't take offense by someone saying they think that people will be saved inspite of X church. Sincere Christians will be saved even if we don't get all the details exactly correct. It is our responsiblity to keep lookng for the truth and follow where the Holy Spirit leads however..

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

I believe that many of them are God fearing and many are saved, I just fear that too many of them go through it as lip service because they're parents did it,

A great many of us here, perhaps even the majority on this forum, come from Protestant backgrounds and came to the Catholic Church only after prayer and a great deal of soul searching; even a number of protestant clergy. So the implication that there are a bunch of ignorant Catholics who know nothing about Protestantism is completely biased and baseless. Here are some examples: http://www.chnetwork.org/converts.htm

edited for consistency

Again, you will be surprised to learn that, in order to be a Catholic, Jesus must live in us and we in Christ. The fact is, You aren't Catholic if you don't have a personal relationship with Jesus.

Grace and peace.

Your brother in Christ.