the Pope and the Papacy

[Sargent_Pepper]

Originally Posted by Yarddog

If the world ended today, those who belong to Christ will have already been purified and before God.
1 Cor. 15:

22 For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life,
23 but each one in proper order: Christ the firstfruits; then, at his coming, those who belong to Christ;
24 then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power.
​

Okay, so purgatory isn't necessary for those who belong to Christ at the last moment. Why is it necessary for the others?

Didn't you get the Vatican II memo?

Purgatory and Roman Catholic dogmas only apply to Roman Catholics now.

Muslims can go to heaven by "living a good life" as Lumen Gentium says, without any stay in purgatory and without ever having faith in Christ or being a member of Christ's Church, but Roman Catholics have to do and believe everything Rome says or else they go to hell.

Seems to be that Lumen Gentium gives the Muslims a better deal than it does Roman Catholics.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Is a forum ban sort of a beheading?
I feel a draft on my neck.

That was cute

 

[Dark_Lite]

Roman Catholics think that their "venial sins" are not really very offensive to God, and have no eternal consequences, therefore are free to commit all the "little sins" they want since they get them burned off in purgatory.

That fallacious thinking of sin being mortal and venial stems from a perverse understanding of both the Holiness of God and the nature of sin.

God is so Infinitely Holy that one, teeny, tiny sin is infinitely offense to an Infinitely Holy God, and will take all eternity to suffer for.

How sad when Roman Catholics land in purgatory and discover it is really hell.
[/INDENT]

 

[ViribusUnitis]

Seems to be that Lumen Gentium gives the Muslims a better deal than it does Roman Catholics.

It seems to me that you might have ment the declaration "Nostra Aetate"

Lumen Gentium is a "constitution" about the Catholic Church

Btw this what Nostra Aetate says about Muslims.

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.

 

[Standing Up]

--

 

[ViribusUnitis]

..

 

[Fireinfolding]

Yall finally out of steam or what?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It seems to me that you might have ment the declaration "Nostra Aetate"

Lumen Gentium is a "constitution" about the Catholic Church

Btw this what Nostra Aetate says about Muslims.

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself;

It seems to me that a certain Evangelical got in trouble concerning whether other religions could get to heaven without believing in Jesus Christ, no matter how "Good" they were in this life.

Some have even called him a "universalist" because of the way he answer L.K. on an interview.

Joel Osteen Exposed

*snip*

KING: Because we've had ministers on who said, your record don't count. You either believe in Christ or you don't. If you believe in Christ, you are, you are going to heaven. And if you don't no matter what you've done in your life, you ain't.
OSTEEN: Yeah, I don't know. There's probably a balance between. I believe you have to know Christ. But I think that if you know Christ, if you're a believer in God, you're going to have some good works. I think it's a cop-out to say I'm a Christian but I don't ever do anything ...

KING: What if you're Jewish or Muslim, you don't accept Christ at all?
OSTEEN: You know, I'm very careful about saying who would and wouldn't go to heaven. I don't know ...

KING: If you believe you have to believe in Christ? They're wrong, aren't they?
OSTEEN: Well, I don't know if I believe they're wrong. I believe here's what the Bible teaches and from the Christian faith this is what I believe. But I just think that only God with judge a person's heart. I spent a lot of time in India with my father. I don't know all about their religion. But I know they love God. And I don't know. I've seen their sincerity. So I don't know. I know for me, and what the Bible teaches, I want to have a relationship with Jesus.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

--

..

Yall finally out of steam or what?

Had to chunk some wood into the steam furnace

 

[ebia]

We all sin.

1 John 1:7-10
7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of His Son Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous that He may forgive us the sins, and may cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us.

If we ask for forgiveness Christ will cleanse us from our sin because when Christ died on the cross he dies for all our sins once and for all, past, presence and future. So when you die Christ has already made you white as snow (Isaiah 1:18 and Ephesians 5:25-27).

You've avoided the question.

• We still sin.
• In the fullness of God's kingdom we will not
• That is a change
• Purgatory is really no more than a label for that change

To go to an imaginary place to be purified is the same as saying Christ as failed miserably in doing what He come to do.

Spe Salvi doesn't talk about it as a place we go to or a time spent there - it's what happens when we finally enter God's full presence.

 

[ebia]

Of the billion or so RC, if the world ended today, what percentage do you think would go directly into God's presence, rather than purgatory?

According to Spe Salvi purgatory is entering into God's presence, so the question stops making much sense.

 

[Trento]

Augustine Believed the Mass to be a Sacrifice

"In the sacrament he is immolated for the people not only on every Easter Solemnity but on every day; and a man would not be lying if, when asked, he were to reply that Christ is being immolated. For if sacraments had not a likeness to those things of which they are sacraments, they would not be sacraments at all; and they generally take the names of those same things by reason of this likeness" (Letters 98:9 [A.D. 412]).


​

Immolated is sacrifice. Now is this what JM is speaking about? Not lying to reply CHRIST IS BEING IMMOLATED. Not resacrificed, but is being sacrificed again and again and again and again.

In no way do we as Catholics believe that Christ continues to be crucified physically or die a physical death in heaven over and over again. However, we do believe that the Mass does participate in the everlasting sacrifice of Christ.
First, one must not separate the sacrifice of our Lord on the cross from the events which surround it. The sacrifice of our Lord is inseparably linked to the Last Supper. Here Jesus took bread and wine. Looking to St. Matthew's text (26:26ff), He said over the bread, "Take this and eat it. This is My body"; and over the cup of wine, "This is My blood, the blood of the covenant, to be poured out on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins."
The next day, on Good Friday, our Lord's body hung on the altar of the cross and His precious blood was spilt to wash away our sins and seal the everlasting, perfect covenant. (note)The divine life our Lord offered and shared for our salvation in the sacrifice of Good Friday is the same offered and shared at the Last Supper. The Last Supper, the sacrifice of Good Friday and the Resurrection on Easter form one saving event.
Read that over again and let it sink in.
One must have a nuanced understanding of time. One must distinguish chronological time from kairotic time, as found in sacred Scripture. In the Bible, <chronos> refers to chronological time—past, present and future—specific deeds which have an end point. <Kairos>, or kairotic time, refers to God's eternal time, time of the present moment which recapitulates the entire past as well as contains the entire future. Therefore, while our Lord's saving event occurred chronologically around the year AD 30-33, in the kairotic sense of time it is an ever-present reality which touches our lives here and now. In the same sense, this is why through baptism we share now in the mystery of Christ's passion, death and resurrection, a chronological event that happened almost 1,965 years ago, but is still efficacious for us today.
With this in mind, we also remember that our Lord commanded, as recorded in the Gospel of St. Luke (22:14ff) and St. Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians (11:23ff), "Do this in remembrance of Me." Clearly our Lord wanted the faithful to repeat, to participate in and to share in this sacramental mystery. The Last Supper, which is inseparably linked to Good Friday (and the Resurrection), is perpetuated in the holy Mass for time eternal.
The Mass therefore is a memorial. In each of the Eucharistic prayers, the <anamnesis>, or memorial, follows the consecration, whereby we call to mind the passion, death, resurrection and ascension of our Lord. However, this memorial is not simply a recollection of past history in chronological time, but rather a liturgical proclamation of living history, of an event that continues to live and touch our lives now in that sense of kairotic time.
Just as good orthodox Jews truly live the Passover event when celebrating the Passover liturgy, plunging themselves into an event which occurred about 1,200 years before our Lord, we too live Christ's saving event in celebrating the Mass. The sacrifice which Christ made for our salvation remains an ever-present reality: "As often as the sacrifice of the cross by which 'Christ our Pasch is sacrificed' is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is a memorial and because it applies its fruit carried out.

 

[ebia]

Originally Posted by Standing Up

Is it fair to say that Benedict's vision is not what the earlier RC was? Have they repented and recanted, chopping at the root of their tree?
​

So we have a new and improved infallible teaching that replaces the older, defective infallible teaching from the infallible church that says its dogmas are directly communicated to and it's magesterium infallibly led by the Holy Spirit, so that it's teachings are infallible divine truth..

Gotcha!

Either the Holy Spirit was confused in the earlier teachings or Rome was.

You be the judge.

Surely if the RCC's teaching has improved that should be a good thing. Or are you more interested in an enemy to fight?

 

[ebia]

However, we do believe that the Mass does participate in the everlasting sacrifice of Christ. ,...

Just as good orthodox Jews truly live the Passover event when celebrating the Passover liturgy, plunging themselves into an event which occurred about 1,200 years before our Lord, we too live Christ's saving event in celebrating the Mass.

I've snipped the middle out to emphasise this - viewing the mass/communion/lord's supper as being about our participation in the once for all event of the cross and resurrection is precisely the same as the Jews (including Jesus presumably) viewing the passover meal as participation in the one-time-event of Passover and Exodus. "This is the night we...." not "That was they night they..."

 

[Yarddog]

Didn't you get the Vatican II memo?

Purgatory and Roman Catholic dogmas only apply to Roman Catholics now.

Muslims can go to heaven by "living a good life" as Lumen Gentium says, without any stay in purgatory and without ever having faith in Christ or being a member of Christ's Church, but Roman Catholics have to do and believe everything Rome says or else they go to hell.

Seems to be that Lumen Gentium gives the Muslims a better deal than it does Roman Catholics.

What part of Lumen Gentium says that? Scripture does tell us that God will show mercy on those that show mercy.

 

[ebia]

Originally Posted by ebia

For pity's sake. If the RCC teaches something you disagree with you want to condemn it for doing so, if it doesn't you want to condemn it for not doing so.

Really? I thought the opposite.



We have here a good example of postmodernists in Christian garb, in which the truth is irrelevant. How sad.
​

Because I'm not going to spend time rewatching the video to reproduce what others have already done somehow that makes me uninterested in truth? You've been given a whole long list of problems with the video. I've concentrated on one of those problems - the misrepresentation of purgatory - because its particularly clear-cut and central to his whole presentation.

 

[Standing Up]

According to Spe Salvi purgatory is entering into God's presence, so the question stops making much sense.

So, the RC do not believe in purgatory, they've repented and recanted all those old teachings

 

[Standing Up]

Augustine Believed the Mass to be a Sacrifice

"In the sacrament he is immolated for the people not only on every Easter Solemnity but on every day; and a man would not be lying if, when asked, he were to reply that Christ is being immolated. For if sacraments had not a likeness to those things of which they are sacraments, they would not be sacraments at all; and they generally take the names of those same things by reason of this likeness" (Letters 98:9 [A.D. 412]).


​

Immolated is sacrifice. Now is this what JM is speaking about? Not lying to reply CHRIST IS BEING IMMOLATED. Not resacrificed, but is being sacrificed again and again and again and again.

In no way do we as Catholics believe that Christ continues to be crucified physically or die a physical death in heaven over and over again. However, we do believe that the Mass does participate in the everlasting sacrifice of Christ. -snip-

Not trying to get into it, but obviously RC has a different view than Augustine. "IS BEING", Augustine said. No problem, not trying to Clintonesque the thing. After all, RC distances herself from the "let the reader decide" recant also.

 

[Standing Up]

Surely if the RCC's teaching has improved that should be a good thing. Or are you more interested in an enemy to fight?

Ya gotta love her ebia. Unfortunately, it's not how the very early church decided heresy. An "improvement" is proof in and of itself of its non scriptural and non apostolic source.

 

[Standing Up]

What part of Lumen Gentium says that? Scripture does tell us that God will show mercy on those that show mercy.

Seems like a pretty good link: Lumen Gentium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life." (Lumen gentium 16)

That's the point I was agreeing with Trento about earlier. He said it, but apparently it's not really an RC teaching, assuming the above is RC teaching. Amongst other points, certain ones were the ones at Mt. 27:52-53, which is not exactly what LG above is saying. Oh well, a bit off subject.