• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The Politics of Climate Change: How Data Is Being Manipulated To Fit A Theory

USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2003
42,070
16,820
Dallas
✟918,891.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I have a masters in earth science which includes meteorology, oceanography, geology, & astronomy.

If you say so.

The Himalayas have a lot to do with orienting jet streams.

There are four of them and many more influences on them. Of course jet streams effect weather more than climate, so I'm not sure why they have to do with global warming.

A gaseous compound does not weather make.

Someone with an MS in earth science would know that weather < climate and that a buildup of greenhouse gas does effect global climate.


The sun, at its mid-age, is at its highest peak of intensity.

:doh:The last three solar cycles have been some of the weakest on record and yet we still keep getting warmer.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Paulos23
Upvote 0

JBJoe

Regular Member
Apr 8, 2007
1,304
176
Pacific Northwest
Visit site
✟30,211.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
I have a masters in earth science which includes meteorology, oceanography, geology, & astronomy.

Okay, so let's just run through a few checks to see if your underlying knowledge matches this claim.

The sun is the source of our climate & lo & behold we have an atmosphere & are just the right distance from the sun.

Okay, sounds like you're drifting towards making an Anthropic Principle argument, but I think we can all agree that the sun is the primary driver of the climate.

We have a differentiated layer geoid. We have these things called tectonic plates (land & ocean) that do slowly move around the globe over time. Past records show that the geography looked much different. The masses move by magma convection beneath in the mantle-it's whole cake geology. Faultlines stitch together the plates. The geometry of these masses & seas in turn set up our ocean currents, our wind belts, & our semi-permanent pressure cells. We have an axis with a tilt that produces 4 seasons.

It sounds like you're trying to overwhelm with trivia here. "4 seasons" is an arbitrary convenience, it means the length of day light varies throughout the year and therefore so does the daily total insolation.

It is the differentiation in the pressure gradients that set up cyclones & anticyclones which rotate around the globe. They in turn are affected by mountain ranges, beaches, valleys, forests, open deserts, tundra. That is what drives weather. Carbon dioxide is a gas exhaled by living things, including plants at night (inhaled by them in daytime).

The above items you mentioned are unnecessary for cyclones or anticyclones. We see them on gas giants that are far too large to be affected by what little solid surface exists below the clouds. Also you're mixing in "weather" to a climate discussion which you should not do given your education in meteorology.

We are still coming out of the Ice Age because not every glacier has disappeared. The sun's energy varies with sunspots & power output. The distinct jet streams often distribute themselves sometimes at higher latitudes, sometimes lower.

It's a little difficult to take you seriously when you say "the sun's energy varies with sunspots & power output". It's very imprecise language and is technically wrong.

Sunlight that we receive at surface level is re-radiated back to space at night. It is the re-radiation that creates surface warmth during summer (infrared).

This again raises a bunch of red flags. It's the sort of thing I expect to hear from someone who only paid attention to half of a high school physics lecture. It's again very informal language but is more than just "technically" wrong. It's plain wrong. Why do deserts get colder at night than their less arid neighbors?

The politicians are trying to make an issue of something they cannot control. Man being arrogant (go back to the Galileo story) thinks it can.

More red flags. "The Galileo story" is a favorite of groups with a political objection to AGW, but not to those with scientific objection.

Now co2 can contribute to a greenhouse effect locally (visit a greenhouse in summer) but the little gas put out on the globe cannot change the whole picture.

Even more red flags. There is not nearly enough co2 in a regular greenhouse to account for its temperature. Because of the relatively high number of plants in a greenhouse, it generally has a somewhat lower co2 concentration than the outside atmosphere unless co2 is pumped in. This one isn't even an issue of imprecise language and it is just plain wrong. The temperature inside of a conventional greenhouse in summer has little to nothing to do with its co2 level.

The biggest sink for CO2 is the ocean & lakes, followed by forests. So why all the fuss? Simple. The Democrats want this issue so they find another way to drive a tax into the economy. They want to punish people either at the gas pump, or those with electric heat, or AC. This gives them more money to spend. Imagine that-our own govt wants to punish people. I.E. the govt does not want you to use your AC when its 90+. They want you to suffer all to save planet earth. Ditto in the winter. They want $7 a gallon gas. It's easy for Leo & George to stick their nose in it but do you think it's gonna stop them from using their private jet or Ferrari.

I have no response to unsubstantiated rantings of conspiracy theory.

The local heat effect in a metropolis is known as a heat island. All the emissions from vehicles, utilities, businesses, restaurants, hospitals, collect in one place & they are blocked in by tall buildings, things that absorb heat like concrete, steel, & asphalt. Of course when you settle more people here-the more the effect on the grid. What would help is maybe more city trees.

Urban heat island effects are fairly well understood as to their cause and effect. Trees won't help much though, unless they displace the things causing the problem in the first place. Given your credentials, you should really know better.

All energy actions lead to entropy. What this means is energy is never 100% efficient. It goes off to waste--heat waste.

Yes, but this is meaningless in context.

Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant; it's an emission which in turn is used by algae, fungi, plants, crops, trees. This is how we make our food.

Red flags again. Being an emission does not mean it isn't a pollutant. The fact that some things can make use it is immaterial. Look up the definition of "pollutant"; given your credentials, you should know better.

Our troposphere is 78% nitrogen 20% oxygen, & the balance a small % of co2, argon, sulfur compounds, maybe some xenon, helium, & hydrogen. The reason we have nitrogen as the highest % is two-fold: if we had 100% oxygen, this gas being highly volatile-we would burn up. The nitrogen is there in a sense to buffer us.

MAJOR red flags - appeal to anthropic principle. We know that oxygen was significantly higher in the past which is one reason fauna back then were generally much larger than they are now.

The nitrogen accrual came earth's early years when bacteria began to fix nitrogen. Now certainly we'd all like a clean earth but you won't get to 100%.

Red flags here: nitrogen fixing refers to taking nitrogen out of the atmosphere. Nitrogen is a relatively inert gas so its accumulation in the atmosphere is an inevitability. Once it's molecular nitrogen it takes a fair bit of energy to break those bonds. Some things can do it, but it's expensive.

CO2 does not create low pressure system such as a tornado; it does not create an Alberta clipper; it does not make a dust storm or cirrus clouds.

Nobody involved in climate research claims that it does. The claim is that CO2 is more opaque at infrared wavelengths and so the energy radiating away from the planet is less. If the energy isn't leaving, it must be staying and that means things get warmer.

The sun is roughly 50% thru it's life cycle as a not so big star.

The sun is an average-sized star.

As it ages, it will begin going thru consecutive shells of hydrogen & helium burning. This will eventually increase its diameter. It will become a red giant & albeit cool off (red is cool), it will absorb the entire solar system & we will all perish.

More red flags - yellow dwarfs of 1 solar mass are predicted to expand to roughly 2 AU at their peak. So, it might reach as far as Mars. Neptune, the most distant "planet", has a mean orbital distance of roughly 30 AU.

At some point it will fuse thru the next elements in the periodic table until it gets to iron. The cost of burning iron is where it ends-it's too great a cost-the sun will blow up as a nova & become a tinier white hot dwarf.

Yet more red flags... Stars of 1 solar mass do not possess enough gravity to overcome the electron degeneracy pressure. They do not fuse anything but hydrogen in appreciable amounts until the very end - after their red giant phase - when they have a "helium flash" what will blow the outer gas layers out into space and form a ring-like "planetary" nebula. But that's it. Also, when a star does "blow up" it's called a "supernova" not "nova". "Nova" is what happens after it is a white dwarf if it is in a binary system, which our sun is not. Also, supernovae do not become white dwarfs, they become neutron stars.

That is the end. Stardust we are born & to stardust we return.

The end indeed. It just doesn't sound like you know this subject very well.
 
Upvote 0

KCfromNC

Regular Member
Apr 18, 2007
30,256
17,181
✟545,630.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I have a degree in math from Rutgers U., a masters in math from Central CT SU, & a masters in earth science, minor geology from Central CT SU.
Any peer-reviewed publications in the field of AGW, or are you just an interested amateur like the rest of the posters in this thread?
 
Upvote 0

brinny

everlovin' shiner of light in dark places
Site Supporter
Mar 23, 2004
249,106
114,203
✟1,378,064.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
Given that this is my educational field I thought I'd chime in. Ok so maybe the average temp has gone up 1 degree. But this is how climate works. The sun is the source of our climate & lo & behold we have an atmosphere & are just the right distance from the sun. We have a differentiated layer geoid. We have these things called tectonic plates (land & ocean) that do slowly move around the globe over time. Past records show that the geography looked much different. The masses move by magma convection beneath in the mantle-it's whole cake geology. Faultlines stitch together the plates. The geometry of these masses & seas in turn set up our ocean currents, our wind belts, & our semi-permanent pressure cells. We have an axis with a tilt that produces 4 seasons. It is the differentiation in the pressure gradients that set up cyclones & anticyclones which rotate around the globe. They in turn are affected by mountain ranges, beaches, valleys, forests, open deserts, tundra. That is what drives weather. Carbon dioxide is a gas exhaled by living things, including plants at night (inhaled by them in daytime). We are still coming out of the Ice Age because not every glacier has disappeared. The sun's energy varies with sunspots & power output. The distinct jet streams often distribute themselves sometimes at higher latitudes, sometimes lower. Sunlight that we receive at surface level is re-radiated back to space at night. It is the re-radiation that creates surface warmth during summer (infrared). The politicians are trying to make an issue of something they cannot control. Man being arrogant (go back to the Galileo story) thinks it can. Now co2 can contribute to a greenhouse effect locally (visit a greenhouse in summer) but the little gas put out on the globe cannot change the whole picture. The biggest sink for CO2 is the ocean & lakes, followed by forests. So why all the fuss? Simple. The Democrats want this issue so they find another way to drive a tax into the economy. They want to punish people either at the gas pump, or those with electric heat, or AC. This gives them more money to spend. Imagine that-our own govt wants to punish people. I.E. the govt does not want you to use your AC when its 90+. They want you to suffer all to save planet earth. Ditto in the winter. They want $7 a gallon gas. It's easy for Leo & George to stick their nose in it but do you think it's gonna stop them from using their private jet or Ferrari. The local heat effect in a metropolis is known as a heat island. All the emissions from vehicles, utilities, businesses, restaurants, hospitals, collect in one place & they are blocked in by tall buildings, things that absorb heat like concrete, steel, & asphalt. Of course when you settle more people here-the more the effect on the grid. What would help is maybe more city trees. All energy actions lead to entropy. What this means is energy is never 100% efficient. It goes off to waste--heat waste. Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant; it's an emission which in turn is used by algae, fungi, plants, crops, trees. This is how we make our food. Our troposphere is 78% nitrogen 20% oxygen, & the balance a small % of co2, argon, sulfur compounds, maybe some xenon, helium, & hydrogen. The reason we have nitrogen as the highest % is two-fold: if we had 100% oxygen, this gas being highly volatile-we would burn up. The nitrogen is there in a sense to buffer us. The nitrogen accrual came earth's early years when bacteria began to fix nitrogen. Now certainly we'd all like a clean earth but you won't get to 100%. CO2 does not create low pressure system such as a tornado; it does not create an Alberta clipper; it does not make a dust storm or cirrus clouds. The sun is roughly 50% thru it's life cycle as a not so big star. As it ages, it will begin going thru consecutive shells of hydrogen & helium burning. This will eventually increase its diameter. It will become a red giant & albeit cool off (red is cool), it will absorb the entire solar system & we will all perish. At some point it will fuse thru the next elements in the periodic table until it gets to iron. The cost of burning iron is where it ends-it's too great a cost-the sun will blow up as a nova & become a tinier white hot dwarf. That is the end. Stardust we are born & to stardust we return.

Thank you.
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2015
28,438
9,141
65
✟435,169.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Given that this is my educational field I thought I'd chime in. Ok so maybe the average temp has gone up 1 degree. But this is how climate works. The sun is the source of our climate & lo & behold we have an atmosphere & are just the right distance from the sun. We have a differentiated layer geoid. We have these things called tectonic plates (land & ocean) that do slowly move around the globe over time. Past records show that the geography looked much different. The masses move by magma convection beneath in the mantle-it's whole cake geology. Faultlines stitch together the plates. The geometry of these masses & seas in turn set up our ocean currents, our wind belts, & our semi-permanent pressure cells. We have an axis with a tilt that produces 4 seasons. It is the differentiation in the pressure gradients that set up cyclones & anticyclones which rotate around the globe. They in turn are affected by mountain ranges, beaches, valleys, forests, open deserts, tundra. That is what drives weather. Carbon dioxide is a gas exhaled by living things, including plants at night (inhaled by them in daytime). We are still coming out of the Ice Age because not every glacier has disappeared. The sun's energy varies with sunspots & power output. The distinct jet streams often distribute themselves sometimes at higher latitudes, sometimes lower. Sunlight that we receive at surface level is re-radiated back to space at night. It is the re-radiation that creates surface warmth during summer (infrared). The politicians are trying to make an issue of something they cannot control. Man being arrogant (go back to the Galileo story) thinks it can. Now co2 can contribute to a greenhouse effect locally (visit a greenhouse in summer) but the little gas put out on the globe cannot change the whole picture. The biggest sink for CO2 is the ocean & lakes, followed by forests. So why all the fuss? Simple. The Democrats want this issue so they find another way to drive a tax into the economy. They want to punish people either at the gas pump, or those with electric heat, or AC. This gives them more money to spend. Imagine that-our own govt wants to punish people. I.E. the govt does not want you to use your AC when its 90+. They want you to suffer all to save planet earth. Ditto in the winter. They want $7 a gallon gas. It's easy for Leo & George to stick their nose in it but do you think it's gonna stop them from using their private jet or Ferrari. The local heat effect in a metropolis is known as a heat island. All the emissions from vehicles, utilities, businesses, restaurants, hospitals, collect in one place & they are blocked in by tall buildings, things that absorb heat like concrete, steel, & asphalt. Of course when you settle more people here-the more the effect on the grid. What would help is maybe more city trees. All energy actions lead to entropy. What this means is energy is never 100% efficient. It goes off to waste--heat waste. Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant; it's an emission which in turn is used by algae, fungi, plants, crops, trees. This is how we make our food. Our troposphere is 78% nitrogen 20% oxygen, & the balance a small % of co2, argon, sulfur compounds, maybe some xenon, helium, & hydrogen. The reason we have nitrogen as the highest % is two-fold: if we had 100% oxygen, this gas being highly volatile-we would burn up. The nitrogen is there in a sense to buffer us. The nitrogen accrual came earth's early years when bacteria began to fix nitrogen. Now certainly we'd all like a clean earth but you won't get to 100%. CO2 does not create low pressure system such as a tornado; it does not create an Alberta clipper; it does not make a dust storm or cirrus clouds. The sun is roughly 50% thru it's life cycle as a not so big star. As it ages, it will begin going thru consecutive shells of hydrogen & helium burning. This will eventually increase its diameter. It will become a red giant & albeit cool off (red is cool), it will absorb the entire solar system & we will all perish. At some point it will fuse thru the next elements in the periodic table until it gets to iron. The cost of burning iron is where it ends-it's too great a cost-the sun will blow up as a nova & become a tinier white hot dwarf. That is the end. Stardust we are born & to stardust we return.
Glad to have you on board. It's nice to have someone here with some knowledge other than those parroting the climate catastrophic man made nonsense.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: brinny
Upvote 0

USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2003
42,070
16,820
Dallas
✟918,891.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Glad to have you on board. It's nice to have someone here with some knowledge other than those parroting the climate catastrophic man made nonsense.
Oh the irony.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Allandavid
Upvote 0

FenderTL5

Κύριε, ἐλέησον.
Site Supporter
Jun 13, 2016
5,671
6,639
Nashville TN
✟772,645.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
I remember what the air and water in major cities and industrial areas were like in the late 60s and early 70s.

Whether you agree with Global Warming or not, that history alone should be reason enough to pursue clean energy as opposed to deregulation and promoting more use of fossil fuels. IMHO, YMMV.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Allandavid
Upvote 0

amanuensis63

Newbie
Nov 29, 2014
1,908
846
✟7,455.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Given that this is my educational field I thought I'd chime in


Paragraph breaks are your friend.

. Ok so maybe the average temp has gone up 1 degree. But this is how climate works.

And 1 deg change in average global temperature is extreme. It is not to be passed off as nothing. Yes, climate has changed in the past, and often for known reasons. Now we have a significant rise in temperature that correlates best with human activity. In fact, among the available forcings human activity explains the data the best.

This is how statistics and modeling work. If this is your area of education then you will likely need to learn these things.

Carbon dioxide is a gas exhaled by living things, including plants at night (inhaled by them in daytime).

Again, since this is your area of study you must also know that when excess CO2 goes into the atmosphere it is much harder to get it to come back out of the atmosphere. This is called the carbon cycle. Yes animals and plants exchange CO2 and O2 with the atmosphere but if you were to suddenly, say, pump a huge excess of CO2 into the atmosphere it would tend to accumulate and do what CO2 is known to do (absorb in the IR part of the spectrum) and trap heat in the atmosphere.

We are still coming out of the Ice Age

Actually you are not really correct. We should be starting into the next ice age because of how the Milankovich Cycle works. But ironically enough we are getting warmer instead of colder.

because not every glacier has disappeared.

I have never heard that point made before. I don't believe it is accurate. Glaciers can exist even at peak interglacials. The existence of glaciers in mountains and even large landmasses like Greenland does not mean you are not in an interglacial.

The politicians are trying to make an issue of something they cannot control.

Again, if this is your area of study then you certainly know that it was a SCIENTIST (Roger Revelle) who approached the government back in the 50's and 60's to get the government alerted.

Now co2 can contribute to a greenhouse effect locally (visit a greenhouse in summer)

If you are actually interested in this topic you will surely know that an actual greenhouse is not a particularly technically solid comparison to the "Greenhouse Effect". First off: the literal greenhouse holds heat in due to the GLASS. In the greenhouse effect the CO2 holds the heat in but ultimately it re-radiates back out into space just at higher and higher elevations.

but the little gas put out on the globe cannot change the whole picture.

You will have to get over this "incredulity due to small numbers" fallacy. There are many things which occur at low levels but have a large effect.

The biggest sink for CO2 is the ocean & lakes

-sigh- And if this is your area of education you know that when CO2 enters the ocean it is likely simply exchanging with another CO2 molecule.

I might also suggest you read up on the Revelle Factor.
 
Upvote 0

amanuensis63

Newbie
Nov 29, 2014
1,908
846
✟7,455.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Glad to have you on board. It's nice to have someone here with some knowledge other than those parroting the climate catastrophic man made nonsense.

Based on what I read in the giant paragraph mash-up it looked to me like the poster had only a moderate understanding of the topic and was largely incorrect in the conclusions they drew from their incomplete knowledge.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Allandavid
Upvote 0

iluvatar5150

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2012
29,664
29,394
Baltimore
✟776,190.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
I have a degree in math from Rutgers U., a masters in math from Central CT SU, & a masters in earth science, minor geology from Central CT SU.

Interesting. If I may ask, how long ago did you receive your masters in Earth Science from Central CT State? I ask, because they no longer offer that (or any kind of non-biological science) as a Masters program. It's now only offered at the undergraduate level.


Graduate Studies - Programs
Degree Programs
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

amanuensis63

Newbie
Nov 29, 2014
1,908
846
✟7,455.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
I have a degree in math from Rutgers U., a masters in math from Central CT SU, & a masters in earth science, minor geology from Central CT SU.

Very good, so we have something to work with.

In your geology classes, like Historical Geology, surely you learned about Milankovich Cycles and the fact that we should, indeed, be heading into the next ice age. But clearly we aren't. The temperatures are not falling in any way. In fact rising.

And your comments about CO2 also indicate that you may have not accounted for the carbon cycle. You surely have studied that in your geology classes, if not as extensively as in a chemistry or geochemistry class.
 
  • Like
Reactions: archer75
Upvote 0

Cearbhall

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2013
15,118
5,744
United States
✟129,824.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Single
If it's not real and we do something about it...nothing bad happens.
I'll take that one step further. No one can reasonably argue that it's not happening at all. The only debate that anyone who knows what they're talking about is having is to what degree it's occurring, how quickly it's accelerating, etc. So there's really no reason not to do something about it.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: archer75
Upvote 0

amanuensis63

Newbie
Nov 29, 2014
1,908
846
✟7,455.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Interesting. If I may ask, how long ago did you receive your masters in Earth Science from Central CT State? I ask, because they no longer offer that (or any kind of non-biological science) as a Masters program. It's now only offered at the undergraduate level.


Graduate Studies - Programs
Degree Programs

I too am somewhat confused by the "masters in earth science, minor in geology". The universities that I am most familiar with usually just renamed their geology departments "earth science" (being as that is common synonym). But also I am sort of fascinated by a "minor" in a directly related field at the masters level.

I would be interested in understanding the poster's actual geologic understanding of this topic since the earlier post didn't really belie any detailed understanding.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: iluvatar5150
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2015
28,438
9,141
65
✟435,169.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
I remember what the air and water in major cities and industrial areas were like in the late 60s and early 70s.

Whether you agree with Global Warming or not, that history alone should be reason enough to pursue clean energy as opposed to deregulation and promoting more use of fossil fuels. IMHO, YMMV.

I don't think anyone want dirty air or water. I know I don't. Pursuing clean energy is not a problem for me. But what we need is a smooth transition not a hammer where you cause such destruction in the fossil fuels that it drives up the cost and causes people hardship. There is another way. Develope a reasonable clean energy that is affordable and people will move to it.
I'd have no problem having a solar house. But the cost is prohibitive.
 
Upvote 0

amanuensis63

Newbie
Nov 29, 2014
1,908
846
✟7,455.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
I don't think anyone want dirty air or water. I know I don't. Pursuing clean energy is not a problem for me. But what we need is a smooth transition not a hammer where you cause such destruction in the fossil fuels that it drives up the cost and causes people hardship. There is another way. Develope a reasonable clean energy that is affordable and people will move to it.

The market will have difficulty moving away from fossil fuels since fossil fuels are what our energy systems are built around. Right now the EROEI for most fossil fuels means they are relatively cheap to procure.

I'd have no problem having a solar house. But the cost is prohibitive.

Couple problems there:

1. The prices are dropping rather dramatically on solar panels. We bought 8 years ago in California and we just recently moved to another state. We are looking at solar here and the prices are amazingly lower than they were.

2. Conservative groups like ALEC have been working to undercut the "net metering" systems which make installing solar good for home owners. They effectively collapsed the Nevada solar industry when they gutted Net Metering. In Nevada.

The fossil fuel industries really don't want to let go of their control.

At some point we have to wrest the control from them.

And that isn't even mentioning the fact that current fossil fuel costs don't factor in the damage fossil fuels do. So in a sense there's a giant subsidy that fossil fuels get already. We aren't paying for the real cost of fossil fuels.
 
Upvote 0

iluvatar5150

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2012
29,664
29,394
Baltimore
✟776,190.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
I don't think anyone want dirty air or water. I know I don't. Pursuing clean energy is not a problem for me. But what we need is a smooth transition not a hammer where you cause such destruction in the fossil fuels that it drives up the cost and causes people hardship. There is another way. Develope a reasonable clean energy that is affordable and people will move to it.
I'd have no problem having a solar house. But the cost is prohibitive.

Who's driving up the cost of fossil fuels? Oil prices are fairly low, and coal is being undercut by natural gas.

Additionally, fossil fuels cause pollution, the costs of which are (typically) not accounted for in the price of the fuel. It is wholly appropriate, and in fact necessary for the market to function efficiently, for the government to tack on some kind of surcharge to a product to ensure that its sell price accounts for all of its costs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: amanuensis63
Upvote 0

DaisyDay

I Did Nothing Wrong!! ~~Team Deep State
Jan 7, 2003
42,199
20,098
Finger Lakes
✟315,129.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Interesting. If I may ask, how long ago did you receive your masters in Earth Science from Central CT State? I ask, because they no longer offer that (or any kind of non-biological science) as a Masters program. It's now only offered at the undergraduate level.


Graduate Studies - Programs
Degree Programs
Well, there is the Post-Baccalaureate Program:
Science for Secondary Education Program prepares students for Secondary teacher certification in Science Education: Chemistry, Earth Sciences, General Science and Physics.

So maybe that's the course she 's taking completed?
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2015
28,438
9,141
65
✟435,169.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Who's driving up the cost of fossil fuels? Oil prices are fairly low, and coal is being undercut by natural gas.

Additionally, fossil fuels cause pollution, the costs of which are (typically) not accounted for in the price of the fuel. It is wholly appropriate, and in fact necessary for the market to function efficiently, for the government to tack on some kind of surcharge to a product to ensure that its sell price accounts for all of its costs.
I wasnt just talking about fossil fuels. I was talking about energy in general. Remember what Obama said? Energy prices would necessarily skyrocket.

In order to make people get into more clean energy they have to do one of two things. To make clean energy competitive they have to drive up the cost of other energy or drive down the cost of clean energy. And we see from Obama's statement what they generally prefer to do.
 
Upvote 0

USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2003
42,070
16,820
Dallas
✟918,891.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I wasnt just talking about fossil fuels. I was talking about energy in general. Remember what Obama said? Energy prices would necessarily skyrocket.

And yet, until the election oil and gasoline prices had been historically cheap when adjusted for inflation. And utility bills haven't gone up either.

In order to make people get into more clean energy they have to do one of two things. To make clean energy competitive they have to drive up the cost of other energy or drive down the cost of clean energy. And we see from Obama's statement what they generally prefer to do.

How does this effect the fact that 9 of the 10 hottest years have occurred since 2000 and the outlier is 1998?
 
Upvote 0