The Plagiarism Claim

Lebesgue

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So what you are saying is that even though the same words and thoughts are used...she did not plagerize?

And your reasons are: 1. She did not have the books in her library? and 2. She also was given the same inspiration as the other writers?

My other question would be...Why do we need other thoughts, scenarios and embelishments that are not found in the Bible in the first place? Is not the Bible adequate for our salvation, understanding of God and spiritual growth?

Let's take the Judas hanging thing. The Bible says that Judas went out and hanged himself. What is the importance in knowing that there was a crowd passing by and they saw dogs eating his intestines or whatever?

Why do we need more insight into his thoughts and emotions?

Why do we need more revelations on how we will be spending eternity and on end time events? Isn't the book of Revelation clear enough. Don't we have the words of Jesus, Himself when He talks about end times?

I guess I'm not questioning the plagerization (or lack of) so much as I am questioning the need for any further "light" from any so called "inspired" writers.

Joey

I totally agree with you Joey, the Bible is ALL I need.

I DO NOT need a "flashlight" to see the "sun".

Whether EGW plagarised or not(I think she did), I don't need her, I have the Bible.

Regarding the end times, we have the Words of Y'shua. They are MORE than sufficient.

Shalom,

Lebesgue
 
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Jon0388g

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I guess I'm not questioning the plagerization (or lack of) so much as I am questioning the need for any further "light" from any so called "inspired" writers.

Joey

Hi Joey. You raise a good point.

The honest answer: we don't need any other light than the Bible. Mrs White herself said if we knew the Bible well enough, we wouldn't even need her writings.

However, the Bible does say,

"Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22

We haven't got to reject everything that isn't Canonical; the Bible gives us the test to prove all things, if they speak not according to the Word.

Nice to meet you,



Jon
 
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Lebesgue

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Hi Joey. You raise a good point.

The honest answer: we don't need any other light than the Bible. Mrs White herself said if we knew the Bible well enough, we wouldn't even need her writings.

However, the Bible does say,

"Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22

We haven't got to reject everything that isn't Canonical; the Bible gives us the test to prove all things, if they speak not according to the Word.

Nice to meet you,



Jon

I do not despise prophesying, I just do not think there has been a prophet since John the Revelator.

When Y'shua gave the Revlation to John the Revelator the Bible was COMPLETE. No need for any further revelation IMHO.

We have Messiah Y'shua, the Holy Spirit, and the Bible.
That's ALL I need.

G-d Bless.

Shalom,

Lebesgue
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Hi Joey. You raise a good point.

The honest answer: we don't need any other light than the Bible. Mrs White herself said if we knew the Bible well enough, we wouldn't even need her writings.

However, the Bible does say,

"Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22

We haven't got to reject everything that isn't Canonical; the Bible gives us the test to prove all things, if they speak not according to the Word.

Nice to meet you,



Jon

If we are to "prove all things," is it appropriate to test post-canonical prophets? If so, upon what basis can we test them? For example, if a post-canonical prophet directly contradicts Scripture, can we conclude that such prophet is not of God?

BFA
 
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Jon0388g

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If we are to "prove all things," is it appropriate to test post-canonical prophets? If so, upon what basis can we test them? For example, if a post-canonical prophet directly contradicts Scripture, can we conclude that such prophet is not of God?

BFA

Yes, I believe so.

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1




Jon
 
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Jon0388g

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I do not despise prophesying, I just do not think there has been a prophet since John the Revelator.

When Y'shua gave the Revlation to John the Revelator the Bible was COMPLETE. No need for any further revelation IMHO.

We have Messiah Y'shua, the Holy Spirit, and the Bible.
That's ALL I need.

G-d Bless.

Shalom,

Lebesgue


"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams, and on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:" Acts 2:18-19



Jon
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Yes, I believe so.

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1

Jon

If a prophet writes that it is left with us to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement, can we conclude that such a prophet is not of God?

BFA
 
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NightEternal

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Whether EGW plagarised or not(I think she did)

Of course she did Lebesgue. Many of us who are still in the church can see it pretty plainly:

Honor, if your online world extended to other forums besides this place, you would know that Conklin has posted this very same information on every SDA website from CARM to Adventist Tomorrow, and has been taken to the cleaners already as well as had his views soundly refuted. Just ask RC.

Here is what others in the online world are saying about the issue:

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/mess...tml?1200188065

Where are the facts?? No references to what Rea said, no references for what his supporters say and David has not seen the book Night Scenes, but he is willing to find it. Amazing how critics fail to check out original sources.

You have been doing this for years as I recall David, but your work is still as sloppy as ever.

The best you can do is argue the amount of ideas copied, because the facts are clear that she did copy.

David, you say that the White Estate says that EGW did not refer to people on Saturn. I thought you were skeptical of their claims!!!! How do you choose what to be skeptical of and what to accept? It seems to me that you accept at face value whatever the White Estate says that defends the inspiratio n of EGW and are skeptical of anything they say that admits problems with reference to EGW. At least that is how you respond to each and every question put to you regarding comments from the White Estate.

You neatly avoided my very direct question to you and the questions others put to you. Your comments are slick and clever, but not persuasive . You pretend to be objectivel y studying the evidence, but your work is that of an apologist. There is no shame in that, but there is shame in pretending to be objective when it is obvious you are not.

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/mess...tml?1132984641

David, you ask for proof that material in "Desire of Ages" was rewritten repeatedly . In so asking, you reveal your lack of study of the topic. If you had studied the available materials, you would know the answer. You have either not educated yourself or you are intentiona lly deceiving people.

Again, it is hard to say whether you really haven't read the source materials or whether you are attempting to mislead. In any event, it illustrate s why you are not to be trusted in your work on source materials. You are unqualifie d and you are either ignorant or deceptive. Perhaps, I should have used "and" rather than "or."

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/mess...tml?1135188143

And yet he keeps plugging away at that forum in spite of the thrashing he recieves there. That is what amazes me...

Besides, for those of us who actually believe the evidence shows EGW did in fact plagiarize, this whole thing is a non-issue to us. We have no reason to read this thread, let alone take the time to offer rebuttals to those who are convinced otherwise.

Like I said before on another thread, the question for me personally is no longer "did she plagiarize." It has not been for years. The question for me right now is "what do I do with the fact that she did plagiarize, and do I hold it against her."

So, have fun preaching to the choir.

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=42518163&postcount=249

For me, the question is do I hold the fact that she did plagiarize against her or not?

I choose not to. Others choose to.

C'est la vie.
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Can you find that in the Scriptures?


Jon

Not only am I unable to find that in the Scriptures, it is clear that the Scriptures do not teach that it is left with us to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement. The Scriptures teach that human righteousness is as filthy rags; that there is only One who is good; that anyone who sins is slave to sin; that there is no one righteous, not even one; that it is the Spirit who convicts with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment and that it is the Spirit who sanctifies.

What should we do with a prophet who teaches that it is left with us to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement?

BFA
 
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Jon0388g

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Not only am I unable to find that in the Scriptures, it is clear that the Scriptures do not teach that it is left with us to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement. The Scriptures teach that human righteousness is as filthy rags; that there is only One who is good; that anyone who sins is slave to sin; that there is no one righteous, not even one; that it is the Spirit who convicts with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment and that it is the Spirit who sanctifies.

What should we do with a prophet who teaches that it is left with us to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement?

BFA

Start a new thread on what this prophet said or did not say, and we can discuss it further.


Note it is essential to be able to "rightly divide" the word of truth, before we can even test the spirits. Can you rightly divide Scripture? :)



Jon
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Start a new thread on what this prophet said or did not say, and we can discuss it further.

I notice that you didn't offer a direct answer to my question. Is there a reason for that?

Note it is essential to be able to "rightly divide" the word of truth, before we can even test the spirits. Can you rightly divide Scripture? :)

If you have any concerns about my conclusion, please demonstrate where I went wrong and I'll be happy to listen and respond.

BFA
 
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Jon0388g

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I notice that you didn't offer a direct answer to my question. Is there a reason for that?

Yes, there is a reason. I do not want to derail DJ's thread any longer. Hence, I said "start a new thread".


If you have any concerns about my conclusion, please demonstrate where I went wrong and I'll be happy to listen and respond.

BFA

Again, "start a new thread". Just be sure to post the prophet's statements in context, and also Scriptural references in context. Then we'll talk.


Jon
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Yes, there is a reason. I do not want to derail DJ's thread any longer. Hence, I said "start a new thread". Again, "start a new thread". Just be sure to post the prophet's statements in context, and also Scriptural references in context. Then we'll talk.

Derail? There's no discussion in this thread.

BFA
 
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djconklin

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So what you are saying is that even though the same words and thoughts are used...she did not plagerize?

First of all, there is no evidence that she used the thoughts of others. Secondly, if we look at how other writers of her day and age (not today) and in her genre (not academic) and see how they handled the borrowing of material then we can tell what was called plagiarism back then (virtually verbatim). The _kind_ and amount of legitimate literary borrowing (the critics don't know that there is a difference) we see EGW's writings aren't even close to what would have been called plagiarism.

And your reasons are: 1. She did not have the books in her library? and 2. She also was given the same inspiration as the other writers?

In the chapter I examined for the article I was able to find 3 phrases that were similar to what we can find in books she didn't have in her library--so what does that say about the rest of the examples (9, one of which is a biblical paraphrase)?

On the question of inspiration: have you ever noticed that none of the critics have proved that the other writers weren't inpsired? They simply assume it. I now suspect that we will find out in the hereafter that many people were inspired and possibly most of them without knowing that it was God who inspired them.

My other question would be...Why do we need other thoughts, scenarios and embelishments that are not found in the Bible in the first place? Is not the Bible adequate for our salvation, understanding of God and spiritual growth?

Where the Bible speaks to things that were known in their day and age it is quite complete--that's why Ellen whoite points her readers to it as the sole rule for our faith and practice. But, back then they knew nothing about inappropriate contentography, and today's addictive drugs.

I guess I'm not questioning the plagerization (or lack of) so much as I am questioning the need for any further "light" from any so called "inspired" writers.

I can agree that the extra insight isn't all that helpful to me in my daily life--so when Robert Bird says that Pilate had "short black hair, wearing a white robe, embroided with a broad purple fringe" I really could care less.

To me, God inspired EGW for a reason. That's what we should be looking for.

Since I now know that the critics didn't tell me tghe truth about the plagiarism question I know I won't find "light" by listening to them ab't her inspiration.

BTW, we are told that in the last days there would be visions and dreams--I suspect that the best is yet to come! The question then is will we hear it or will we have closed our eyes and ears?

On a personal note: Thanks Joey for a good conversation!
 
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djconklin

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Whether EGW plagarised or not(I think she did),

I know by the facts that she did not.

I just do not think there has been a prophet since John the Revelator.

When Y'shua gave the Revlation to John the Revelator the Bible was COMPLETE. No need for any further revelation IMHO.

You may "think" it but that doesn't make it so. See Joel.
 
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djconklin

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David has not seen the book Night Scenes

Say what?!? I own it!!!--see item #141 in my biblio!

And LOC by Geikie, Fleetwood, Farrar, Hanna, and Ingraham's fictional account; Life of Paul by Conybeare and Howson and Farrar. For an outdated biblio of stuff I have either on my shelf or in my files see http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/David/bibliography.html -- this has 260 items, I now have 427.

I once had a boss who said "If you are going to lie, lie well." Of course, it would be even better to be as fully informed on a subject as is possible so you don't get slapped down and look like an idjut in public.
 
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djconklin

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David, you ask for proof that material in "Desire of Ages" was rewritten repeatedly . In so asking, you reveal your lack of study of the topic. If you had studied the available materials, you would know the answer. You have either not educated yourself or you are intentiona lly deceiving people.


I have researched the subject. No one has ever been able to show that the book DA has been repeatedly re-written--probably because it never was. It isn't me that is intentionally trying to deceive people.
 
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djconklin

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Show me where I went astray . . . .


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon0388g
Start a new thread on what this prophet said or did not say, and we can discuss it further.

I notice that you didn't offer a direct answer to my question. Is there a reason for that?

Quite obvious reason: wrong thread.
 
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