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The pinnacle of Evolution (to the faith), is basically just Disciples, without Christ

Gottservant

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Hi there,

So I had another mini-revelation that was quite amazing: the pinnacle of Evolution (to the faith), is basically just Disciples, without Christ. I mean if you had a bunch of disciples and no Christ, that would basically be the message of Evolution. A "no rules, no point" faith, that substitutes the religiosity of every other attempt to harness the spiritual, for the absence of God, regardless of what any one else might say is true, relevant or consequential.

I don't know what you think about this... In one sense it is bad, an insult, an affront to the attempts of believers to win converts; but in another sense it is good, a distraction, even slightly constructive, for unbelievers that would spend all their time attacking the faith for no reason, if they did not have better work to do, whatever it may mean to them, that it remains God's will; and in another sense, it is exactly what Christ would have wanted, if He was an uncaring and unmotivated gentile, that had no regard for the integrity of the species of the world and only wanted to experiment on Creation to prove He was above something briefly, before we all die anyway - which is completely unlike the Christ we know, but for those with no faith an introduction to Christ that would exist in a world without faith (which is a scary prospect, but for the disciples, who continue to remind people that Christ was Himself - despite all poor imitations - far better than that - which is a joy to know really, and something that people without such faith should not, indeed, be able to enjoy).

The point is, that as distractions go, you could not ask for one more obtuse and unhelpful, than Evolution. I mean it really destroys any notion of momentum for one's life and is so "anything goes" it hardly means anything. If you wanted something to act as filler, while you went about trying to find disciples who wanted words of truth to live by, that would be it - I mean I hardly know why the world complains about the faith now, at all! They can do their experiments all they like, it doesn't amount to more than a kind of mechanically functional humility that could not exist without God anyway - which I suppose is why some believers are enticed to say that it is part of God's will, though perhaps not discerning what it is that God actually likes or dislikes about it, viz., that his disciples take up their cross and follow Christ, regardless of what they think may or may not be evolved enough). But I digress, the point is that it is basically a practical alternative to doing nothing and if there were a simple way to show people that higher is better, that would be the icing on cake.

And I suppose the icing on the cake is that we have the Holy Spirit, in that sense - higher is always better, for Christ (and not for the world)

Thoughts?:pray:
 

Gottservant

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You can completely contradict me if you want, but you look foolish in doing so.

Christ is basically the Word and Evolutionists say "we are a word" without Christ (a word, without the Word).

That that "word" is said to reflect nature is immaterial (you may say there is a connection with God, but that is not how the word is shared) - certainly nothing is said on behalf of that word that necessitates the sharing of the past with the future, which is the necessary condition for that to be true.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are basically saying "there is a wholly fictional way of imagining that what you said isn't true" - well, I hate to break it to you, but they would prefer that you give up.

"and they worshipped the creation rather than the Creator"
 
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Willtor

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You can completely contradict me if you want, but you look foolish in doing so.

Christ is basically the Word and Evolutionists say "we are a word" without Christ (a word, without the Word).

...

I'm an evolutionist and I don't say that.
 
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Willtor

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It's identical to the relationship between the Word and the weather models I "believe in." The Word is the Son of God. Evolution, like meteorology, is a field of science. The Word underlies all of nature. Science describes it.
 
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Willtor

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So as soon as I ask, you say "no the mechanism is created, but not by a mechanism"

that is disingenuous

I'd rather you didn't put words in my mouth. Thanks.
 
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Gottservant

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how else am I supposed to understand you? when you make no effort to summarize your own words coherently?

in any case, it is after all, a form of argument that serves the conversation if it remains close to the truth, and as far as your backflip is concerned I think it is

I appreciate that you do not know everything, but in the meantime you are saying "I know the truth" which is a disservice to those that genuinely want to be able to interpret the truth, that you do not provide

and I am one of those people
 
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Willtor

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how else am I supposed to understand you? when you make no effort to summarize your own words coherently?

in any case, it is after all, a form of argument that serves the conversation if it remains close to the truth, and as far as your backflip is concerned I think it is

I appreciate that you do not know everything, but in the meantime you are saying "I know the truth" which is a disservice to those that genuinely want to be able to interpret the truth, that you do not provide

and I am one of those people

I know the truth. The truth is Christ.

Do you perceive evolution as competition to that? If so, do you also perceive meteorology (or some other science) as competition?
 
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BobRyan

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I know the truth. The truth is Christ.

Do you perceive evolution as competition to that? If so, do you also perceive meteorology (or some other science) as competition?

Is Christ in favor of scripture - or opposed to it???
 
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BobRyan

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Is this a game of Questions? If not, how about you answer my question, and then I'll answer yours?

you did not ask me a question on this thread. I asked you one.

You made a statement about the cosmos - what have you "observed over time" in the cosmos?

That the universe is expanding? I think we all agree with that.

That the universe of space time expanded 30 x 10^17 times faster than light at the moment of the big bang? I suppose you did not "observe it" but since that is how the story goes - it would be hard to claim that size defined age without knowing how long that initial rate lasted -- for dead sure.

Now.. since my question was first - and you are avoiding it...

Is Christ in favor of scripture - or opposed to it???
 
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Willtor

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you did not ask me a question on this thread. I asked you one.

You made a statement about the cosmos - what have you "observed over time" in the cosmos?

That the universe is expanding? I think we all agree with that.

That the universe of space time expanded 30 x 10^17 times faster than light at the moment of the big bang? I suppose you did not "observe it" but since that is how the story goes - it would be hard to claim that size defined age without knowing how long that initial rate lasted -- for dead sure.

Now.. since my question was first - and you are avoiding it...

Is Christ in favor of scripture - or opposed to it???

I'm sorry, I should have used 3 question marks at the end of my question instead of 1, as you do. Let me restate the question I asked you:

Do you perceive evolution as competition to that??? If so, do you also perceive meteorology (or some other science) as competition???
 
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ebia

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I'm sorry, I should have used 3 question marks at the end of my question instead of 1, as you do. Let me restate the question I asked you:

Do you perceive evolution as competition to that??? If so, do you also perceive meteorology (or some other science) as competition???

Obviously meteorology is in completion.

Scripture clearly states "the wind blows where it will".
 
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Willtor

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Obviously meteorology is in completion.

Scripture clearly states "the wind blows where it will".

Right on. The irony is that when Jesus says that his Father causes "his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous," (Mat 5:45), I think these particular things actually are from God by His specific intention. And yet, I don't feel threatened by natural explanations of them. I see no need for the two perspectives to be in conflict.

Hence, the confusion when creationists see a conflict between natural explanations of origins and God's intentions, but no conflict in, e.g., meteorology.
 
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BobRyan

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Hi there,

So I had another mini-revelation that was quite amazing: the pinnacle of Evolution (to the faith), is basically just Disciples, without Christ. I mean if you had a bunch of disciples and no Christ, that would basically be the message of Evolution. A "no rules, no point" faith, that substitutes the religiosity of every other attempt to harness the spiritual, for the absence of God, regardless of what any one else might say is true, relevant or consequential.

Step 1 - admit to the obvious facts in the Bible itself.

Originally Posted by BobRyan ============================================
[FONT=&quot]One leading Hebrew scholar is James Barr, Professor of Hebrew Bible at Vanderbilt University and former Regius Professor of Hebrew at Oxford University in England. Although he does not believe in the historicity of Genesis 1, Dr. Barr does agree that the writer's intent was to narrate the actual history of primeval creation. Others also agree with him. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1-11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience; . . . Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know. [/FONT]

James Barr, letter to David Watson, 1984.
================================

Step 2 -- deal with the obvious as we see stated above - by either accepting the Bible as reliable - or rejecting the historicity of the Bible as James Barr does.

Simply "wishing" the bible were "vague" so we can "make stuff up when evolutionism needs it so the Bible fits the story of evolution" does not make any kind of sense.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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you did not ask me a question on this thread. I asked you one.

You made a statement about the cosmos - what have you "observed over time" in the cosmos?

That the universe is expanding? I think we all agree with that.

That the universe of space time expanded 30 x 10^17 times faster than light at the moment of the big bang? I suppose you did not "observe it" but since that is how the story goes - it would be hard to claim that size defined age without knowing how long that initial rate lasted -- for dead sure.

Now.. since my question was first - and you are avoiding it...

Is Christ in favor of scripture - or opposed to it???

I added the 3 question marks that you requested.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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