The Pedilian

[GreekGrl]

Do any of you have the CD ROM version of the Rudder? I just ordered it and am wondering Is it understandable for a layperson?

 

[GreekGrl]

oh come on, no one here has a copy???????

 

[Anhelyna]

Well I certainly haven't - and even though I do have all sorts of what some folk would consider ' strange liturgical type 'stuff' that's not on my shelf - though I have always been told it's not for laity .

 

[buzuxi02]

It should be understandable, just rememeber that the canons are not neccesarily up to the layperson to be interpreted or applied.

 

[Damaris]

I used to have a hard copy. It's understandable in that the layperson of average intelligence can process the words on the page into the intended ideas, but it needs to be noted that these canons are not necessarily equal to one another, nor to any directive your bishop might give you, and have not always been applied in the way stated in the Rudder.

 

[Musa80]

Sorry. Don't have it. I was told by Bishop Basil as well as my Priest to stay far away from the Rudder. Apparently they believe misinterpretation or even a proper interpretation can lead a layperson to unnecessary legalism.

 

[Nickolai]

Here's a link to the Rudder in PDF format. http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgics/The_Rudder_or_Pedalion.pdf I don't even own a hard copy, and this has pretty much anything you'd need it for.

Should say though. Most SFs aren't too keen on laypeople reading the Rudder. It can easily lead someone to legalism or to despondency. Neither one is good.

 

[GreekGrl]

Here's a link to the Rudder in PDF format.

http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgics/The_Rudder_or_Pedalion.pdf I don't even own a hard copy, and this has pretty much anything you'd need it for.

Should say though. Most SFs aren't too keen on laypeople reading the Rudder. It can easily lead someone to legalism or to despondency. Neither one is good.

what then should Orthodox use to trace the faith back to the core? We read so many books by apologists who quote other writers and clergy, but where does their source come from? I find that Catholics are always trying to find out what is legit with Orthodox and what is not and when trying to debate, this alwyasy comes up. It would be nice to have 1 universal document to refer back to to solidly explain to those who can't grasp Orthodoxy , how all the differnt groups unify 1 communion. (ie it is more then just a shared liturgy)

 

[buzuxi02]

The pedalion are the canons which span centuries, they dealt with specific situations to deal with the various problems that arose in the church. Theres the liturgical texts which is the core itself (bible included), Church Fathers, Church History, the Ecumenical councils etc. Even a knowledge of the roman-byzantine empire's history is good to have. inorder to understand the background of various circumstances, how they affected the church and what role the church had in them. I dont think theres a single smoking bullet.
Most quotes from apologist and the like are lacking, there taken out of context,they put spins on them and some material of the ealry church used are forgeries.

For instance ive heard apologist claim that the RC and its head the roman pope is the one true church, as evidence is used Ignatius in 108 a.d. said, 'where the catholic church is thats where Christ is'. Ignatius though wasnt speaking about Rome, he made this reference to an epistle to the Church of Smyrna whose friend Polycarp was the bishop of that church.

Common is to quote Cyprian of Carthage when he said that all must be joined to the throne of Peter, in that quote he was speaking of himself, the throne of carhage itself! Cyprian was the bishop of Carthage and viewed all bishops as successors of Peter. Some in his community broke off from him and he made that comment. Many ways to take things out of context.

 

[Lukaris]

This is most basic but may be a good building block http://www.antiochian.org/orthodox-church-history or this maybe http://orthodoxwiki.org/Timeline_of_Orthodox_Church_and_Roman_Catholic_relations

 

[Monica child of God 1]

It would be nice to have 1 universal document to refer back to to solidly explain to those who can't grasp Orthodoxy , how all the differnt groups unify 1 communion. (ie it is more then just a shared liturgy)

That would be like proving a family is a family because of the existance of a shoe box filled with papers. A family is a family because it is made up of ancestors and descendants. We are all part of the same family. Usually, people can't grasp Orthodoxy because they are looking at it the wrong way or asking the wrong questions. They are looking for what they have always known to be true, even though something very different is in front of them. A book or document won't really help them and such a book does not exist.

As for the Rudder, I was told not to read it as well.

M.

 

[Kristos]

? I thought the Rudder was a radio show ?

 

[Damaris]

? I thought the Rudder was a radio show ?

The Rudder is also the name of an exhaustive compilation of church canons going back to the earliest days of the Church.

 

[gzt]

what then should Orthodox use to trace the faith back to the core? We read so many books by apologists who quote other writers and clergy, but where does their source come from?

Well, I'll tell you this, it's not The Rudder and that's not what The Rudder is for.

 

[GreekGrl]

wow, I just recieved the Rudder CD ROM today and I skimmed throuh it. Now I know why so many of you were told to stay away from it.

It was written before the Anthamas were lifted and before Eucemism. It is very obvious when you scroll to the marriage section. Or antyhing regarding the Papacy.
I am surprised This document does not have any type of additional notes saying ...what has changed.
Do all Priests still use or read this document?

 

[gzt]

I think it would be safe to assume very few do. It doesn't have additional notes because that's a very complex question. It's just a collection of, essentially, everything ever. You can't expect it to be something it's not intended to be.

 

[Nickolai]

Well, nothing HAS changed, all of those canons are just as valid as they ever were. Some of them just aren't enforced by the Bishops (who are the people that apply the canons). And the Rudder is in no ways exhaustive. It's just a compilation of canons put together by St. Nikodemos the Hagiorite. He's the same Saint that compiled the Philokalia. There are far more canons from smaller councils around the world. The Rudder is just the ones St. Nikodemos felt were Church wide.

The reason laypeople shouldn't read them is not because of them being outdated or anything like that. Laypeople shouldn't read them because they could fall into legalism and become very judgmental of others. That's kind of the Old Calenderists bag for the most part. They feel that the "world" Orthodox aren't following the Canons strictly enough, so they this we're out of the Church. So yeah, the Rudder can really screw up your spiritual life, so read with caution, and preferably with the blessing of your SF.

And to answer the question about whether or not all priests read it. Some do some don't. I think most my canon law class hasn't, I'm one of a few, but then again, I find that stuff interesting. Puts you life in perspective. You look at what kind of stuff the Church has historically considered wrong and it really humbles you. And that's another area where the Rudder can screw you up, you can become hopeless and despondent at how sinful you are. Same with the Exomologetarion.

 

[Philothei]

So yeah, the Rudder can really screw up your spiritual life, so read with caution, and preferably with the blessing of your SF.

what he said^...

 

[GreekGrl]

Well, nothing HAS changed, all of those canons are just as valid as they ever were. Some of them just aren't enforced by the Bishops (who are the people that apply the canons). And the Rudder is in no ways exhaustive. It's just a compilation of canons put together by St. Nikodemos the Hagiorite. He's the same Saint that compiled the Philokalia. There are far more canons from smaller councils around the world. The Rudder is just the ones St. Nikodemos felt were Church wide.

The reason laypeople shouldn't read them is not because of them being outdated or anything like that. Laypeople shouldn't read them because they could fall into legalism and become very judgmental of others. That's kind of the Old Calenderists bag for the most part. They feel that the "world" Orthodox aren't following the Canons strictly enough, so they this we're out of the Church. So yeah, the Rudder can really screw up your spiritual life, so read with caution, and preferably with the blessing of your SF.

And to answer the question about whether or not all priests read it. Some do some don't. I think most my canon law class hasn't, I'm one of a few, but then again, I find that stuff interesting. Puts you life in perspective. You look at what kind of stuff the Church has historically considered wrong and it really humbles you. And that's another area where the Rudder can screw you up, you can become hopeless and despondent at how sinful you are. Same with the Exomologetarion.

Yea but this goes beyond that, there are rules in this document that have (from what I understand changed). There are detailed explanations of certain things that through the grace of Eucamism have changed. If you read it you would understand what I mean. Then again, don't !

 

[Nickolai]

There is not really anything I know of contained in the Rudder that has changed. Ecumenism has been a horrible failure for the Church. It's caused the Orthodox nothing but problems. And many elders of the Past 100 years have considered it the greatest heresy of our times, including St. Justin (Popovich), numerous Romanian Elders, Elder Cleopa, Elder Arsenie, even Elder Ephraim in Arizona.

I've read the whole Rudder cover to cover, stared a few years ago when I started Seminary and have read little bits in the past few years. And I'm not entirely sure what stuff you're referring to.