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<blockquote data-quote="Yahweh Nissi" data-source="post: 2002111" data-attributes="member: 7848"><p>Let us look at the whole passage from which that quote is taken.</p><p></p><p>1 Corinthians 15</p><p></p><p><em>The Resurrection of Christ</em></p><p></p><p>1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.</p><p>3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.</p><p>9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.</p><p></p><p><em>The Resurrection of the Dead</em></p><p></p><p>12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.</p><p>20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.</p><p>29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31I die every day--I mean that, brothers--just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,</p><p> "Let us eat and drink,</p><p> for tomorrow we die." 33Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character." 34Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God--I say this to your shame. {Rest of chapter talking about resurection body - not relevent.}[NIV]</p><p></p><p></p><p>First note the first few verses "I want to remind you of the gospel ... By this gospel you are saved ... I passed on to you as of first importance: that <strong>Christ <u>died</u> for our sins</strong> according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures ..." In the very same chapter as 15:17 Paul makes it clear that, whilst the resurrection is a crucial part of the gospel, it is Christ's death that achieves the forgiveness of sins.</p><p></p><p>So, gospel summary to v8, which makes clear death = forgiveness, and stressing in v5-8 just how many people saw Christ risen. Then talks about his and other apostle's preaching of this message which Corinthians believed. Then, starting from v12, goes on to talk about resurection. But in v12 he tells us why he is talking about this "how can some of you say that there is no resurection from the dead?" Therefore, we see that the reason for this next passage is to counter the heretical idea that has been going around that Jesus was not resurected. That is why earlier Paul was as such pains to stress that the risen Jesus had appeared to many different people on many occasions. But as this is the main point of the passage we aught to be cautious in trying to say what "the crux of the gospel" is from one verse in it as this is not primarily what the passage is talking about - especially when just before Paul did give a gospel summary in which he contradicted your interpretation of v17, that the resurrection is the crux of the gospel message and that no resurrection = no forgiveness of sin.</p><p></p><p></p><p>So what does v17 mean? There are two ways of looking at it that avoid this contradiction; indeed these ways are not exactly contradictary, but either interpretation on their own avoids the contradiction.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Looking at v12-16, we see that Paul considers their preaching "useless" if Christ has not been raised, that they are "found to be false witnesses about God". But what was it they preached? The gospel! (v1 & v2) And what does the gospel do? Save sins! - by Christ's death (v3) But the resurrection is a crucial part of the gospel (v4). Therefore, if the resurection did not occur then the whole gospel preached by the apostles is invalidated, because they preached it did occur and so are false witnesses if it did not, and so they can trust none of this preaching of the gospel - including the forgivness of their sins. So, (v17), they "are still in your sins". But, it is not the resurrection itself, or lack of it, which brought this forgivness, or lack of it, but the death on the cross.</p><p></p><p></p><p>But if you do not accept this, if you think that it is the lack of resurrection which directly causes the fact that "you are still in your sins" - what does "you are still in your sins" mean?</p><p></p><p>Word-to-word translations give:</p><p></p><p>"ye are yet in your sins" [KJV]</p><p>"you are still in your sins" [NIV, NASB, ESV]</p><p></p><p>Now, let us look at some translations that aim to interpret/amplify that:</p><p></p><p>"you are still in your sins [under the control and penalty of sins]" [AMP]</p><p>So - the amplified Bible sees this conveying two distinct meanings - one is the fact that they are still under the penalty of sin, i.e. they are unforgiven. But the other is to do with how they are living their lives there and then - they are still under sin's control, still tending to do sinful things.</p><p></p><p>"you are still under condemnation for your sins" [NLT]</p><p>The New Living Translation just takes the former of those meanings.</p><p></p><p>"you are still living in your sins" [CEV and NLV]</p><p>But the Contemporary English Version and New Life Version both see it to mean just the latter of the AMP's interpretations.</p><p></p><p>"And if Christ wasn't raised, then all you're doing is wandering about in the dark, as lost as ever" (all v17) [MSG]</p><p>And The Message also seems to focus on their situation there and then rather then any future forgiveness, or lack thereof, but the language used could contain both meanings - the ultimate one if a metaphorical sense.</p><p></p><p>So, which meaning is correct, or are both? I believe that there is a strong case for saying that it is just the latter. See v30-34 - particularly "If the dead are not raised, 'Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die'" and "Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning". Paul is quite clearly saying that not believing in the resurrection of Christ (and therefore no resurection of man) leads to temptation to sin now and ignore God, because they will just die anyway so what is the point of trying to lead a godly life. This is therefore what he is talking about in v17 - their believing the Christ is not raised is causing them to sin. It is not saying that no resurrection = no forgiveness from that sin.</p><p></p><p></p><p>So, two interpretations (which are not contradictory, but only one of which is required) of v17 that do not suggest that the resurrection is the crux of the gospel and do not suggest that no resurrection = no forgiveness of sin. And these are not twisting the passage, but simply looking at it in context, looking at what Paul is saying in the verses lead up to it and from it, to deduce its meaning.</p><p></p><p>God bless,</p><p>YN.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Yahweh Nissi, post: 2002111, member: 7848"] Let us look at the whole passage from which that quote is taken. 1 Corinthians 15 [I]The Resurrection of Christ[/I] 1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born. 9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed. [I]The Resurrection of the Dead[/I] 12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. 20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. 29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31I die every day--I mean that, brothers--just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die." 33Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character." 34Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God--I say this to your shame. {Rest of chapter talking about resurection body - not relevent.}[NIV] First note the first few verses "I want to remind you of the gospel ... By this gospel you are saved ... I passed on to you as of first importance: that [B]Christ [U]died[/U] for our sins[/B] according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures ..." In the very same chapter as 15:17 Paul makes it clear that, whilst the resurrection is a crucial part of the gospel, it is Christ's death that achieves the forgiveness of sins. So, gospel summary to v8, which makes clear death = forgiveness, and stressing in v5-8 just how many people saw Christ risen. Then talks about his and other apostle's preaching of this message which Corinthians believed. Then, starting from v12, goes on to talk about resurection. But in v12 he tells us why he is talking about this "how can some of you say that there is no resurection from the dead?" Therefore, we see that the reason for this next passage is to counter the heretical idea that has been going around that Jesus was not resurected. That is why earlier Paul was as such pains to stress that the risen Jesus had appeared to many different people on many occasions. But as this is the main point of the passage we aught to be cautious in trying to say what "the crux of the gospel" is from one verse in it as this is not primarily what the passage is talking about - especially when just before Paul did give a gospel summary in which he contradicted your interpretation of v17, that the resurrection is the crux of the gospel message and that no resurrection = no forgiveness of sin. So what does v17 mean? There are two ways of looking at it that avoid this contradiction; indeed these ways are not exactly contradictary, but either interpretation on their own avoids the contradiction. Looking at v12-16, we see that Paul considers their preaching "useless" if Christ has not been raised, that they are "found to be false witnesses about God". But what was it they preached? The gospel! (v1 & v2) And what does the gospel do? Save sins! - by Christ's death (v3) But the resurrection is a crucial part of the gospel (v4). Therefore, if the resurection did not occur then the whole gospel preached by the apostles is invalidated, because they preached it did occur and so are false witnesses if it did not, and so they can trust none of this preaching of the gospel - including the forgivness of their sins. So, (v17), they "are still in your sins". But, it is not the resurrection itself, or lack of it, which brought this forgivness, or lack of it, but the death on the cross. But if you do not accept this, if you think that it is the lack of resurrection which directly causes the fact that "you are still in your sins" - what does "you are still in your sins" mean? Word-to-word translations give: "ye are yet in your sins" [KJV] "you are still in your sins" [NIV, NASB, ESV] Now, let us look at some translations that aim to interpret/amplify that: "you are still in your sins [under the control and penalty of sins]" [AMP] So - the amplified Bible sees this conveying two distinct meanings - one is the fact that they are still under the penalty of sin, i.e. they are unforgiven. But the other is to do with how they are living their lives there and then - they are still under sin's control, still tending to do sinful things. "you are still under condemnation for your sins" [NLT] The New Living Translation just takes the former of those meanings. "you are still living in your sins" [CEV and NLV] But the Contemporary English Version and New Life Version both see it to mean just the latter of the AMP's interpretations. "And if Christ wasn't raised, then all you're doing is wandering about in the dark, as lost as ever" (all v17) [MSG] And The Message also seems to focus on their situation there and then rather then any future forgiveness, or lack thereof, but the language used could contain both meanings - the ultimate one if a metaphorical sense. So, which meaning is correct, or are both? I believe that there is a strong case for saying that it is just the latter. See v30-34 - particularly "If the dead are not raised, 'Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die'" and "Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning". Paul is quite clearly saying that not believing in the resurrection of Christ (and therefore no resurection of man) leads to temptation to sin now and ignore God, because they will just die anyway so what is the point of trying to lead a godly life. This is therefore what he is talking about in v17 - their believing the Christ is not raised is causing them to sin. It is not saying that no resurrection = no forgiveness from that sin. So, two interpretations (which are not contradictory, but only one of which is required) of v17 that do not suggest that the resurrection is the crux of the gospel and do not suggest that no resurrection = no forgiveness of sin. And these are not twisting the passage, but simply looking at it in context, looking at what Paul is saying in the verses lead up to it and from it, to deduce its meaning. God bless, YN. [/QUOTE]
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