The Passion- No flames please

Thank you, I appreciate that. I just did not want you to think I was coming of sarcastic because again it was not intended that way and did not want you to be mad at me.

moogirl said:

Heaven_Bound,

I'm so sorry. I was just being overly sensitive. I post on other message boards which are not christian, and Im used to flames and posts dripping with sarcastic and rude remarks.

Truly, I think its a movie that people should see if they are inclined to do so.

Not everyone is going to be affected by the violence like I was. I don't think we need to sugar-coat the last 12 hours of Jesus' life, that was not what I intended to convey.

But, it just seems that if you so much as say it was a bit too much, you get remarks like, "WELL THATS HOW IT WAS!! THATS WHAT HAPPENED!! DONT YOU GET IT?!"

The fact is, I think there are plenty of christians who realized even before the movie came out, the intense suffering Jesus went through for us. Yes, the movie illustrated it in technicolor, but I'm tired of the idea that if some folks found it to be a bit much, then somehow we want to mimimize the account. Sugar-coat, I believe, was the adjective.

For some of us, the violence was so much so that the message was nearly lost in all of it, is all that I'm saying.

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moogirl said:

scene: Jesus praying in garden. satan asks, "who is your father?", "who are you?"

- scriptures indicate that demons know exactly who He is. Artistic license, okay. Bibically sound? No. Maybe Mel's way of opening up those questions for answers, but it could have been done within the confines of scripture and not a distortion of it.

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Remember that Satan tempted jesus with this before -- "If you are the Son of God . . ." It is possible and likely that the devil continued in that vein. In fact, some of the Enemy's people stood at the cross with the same temptation -- "If you are the Son of God . . ."

cs may appreciate the prominence of Mary, mother of Jesus, even though in the New Testament she appears only briefly at the foot of the cross, in just one Gospel. Mary also seems to have some sort of "connection" to Jesus, as she senses him beneath the floor.

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The fact that she was at the cross (even if "only one Gospel" reports it is highly significant. Did she just materialize there? It was very dangerous to be there and Jesus' disciples (except John) had all headed for the tall grass. No, the fact that she was there indicates she was on top of events as they were happening. It is possible -- and certainly not unscriptural -- to show her as being there. Gibson used her as a way to bring in some breaks in the horror and some points of teaching that were biblical.

The movie depicts a Catholic version of Mary. Before the flames begin, understand, I am not Catholic, and therefore I do not esteem her as Catholics do. I count her blessed among women, as having bourne the Lord Jesus Christ, however, I do not view her as a co-redeemer, or as a spiritual being to whom I offer prayers. So yes, this depiction of Mary (be it subtle) didn't sit well with me.

This is not a slam on Catholics. I am only expressing my beliefs and how they conflicted with what was depicted in the film.

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The version was not all that Catholic. I am definitely NOT Catholic but was raised such in the pre-Vatican Catholic world Gibson lives in. There was no co-redeemer here. The "connection throufg the floor scene was touching but nothing that miraculous. We all know of stories where people wake up at 3 a.m. KNOWING someone they love is in trouble.

Also, I believe the most agonizing aspect of the cross was not in it's physical torture as this movie seemed to stress, as it was the the agony He endured in having the sins of the world imputed upon Him, the innocent Son of God.

There are other scenes and aspects of the movie that didn't sit well with me, but I wont nitpick this film to death.

Like I said, I'm glad I went to see it, and I can't deny that it was a powerful movie.

Peace-

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The spiritual suffering was probably a huge issue. How do you put it on film?

It is very violent but it gets the point across well and the Garden is Satan tempting Jesus and maybe in the Catholic bible Jesus does get beat on the way to the city.

Lbiagm said:

It is very violent but it gets the point across well and the Garden is Satan tempting Jesus and maybe in the Catholic bible Jesus does get beat on the way to the city.

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These were the people that hated Christ. I don't think they took him out for dinner before they handed him over.

moogirl said:

It wasn't the violence in and of itself that was numbing, it was the stringing it out, for example- 20 minutes in the scourging scene alone.

I think we all got the message after the first 10 minutes.

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But I think that's what needed to be shown, because without it, we would have subconsciously played it off as just another violent scene in a movie.

Lbiagm said:

maybe in the Catholic bible Jesus does get beat on the way to the city.

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The Catholic New Testament is the same as the Protestant one.

Helen

moogirl said:

it just seems that if you so much as say it was a bit too much, you get remarks like, "WELL THATS HOW IT WAS!! THATS WHAT HAPPENED!! DONT YOU GET IT?!"

The fact is, I think there are plenty of christians who realized even before the movie came out, the intense suffering Jesus went through for us. Yes, the movie illustrated it in technicolor, but I'm tired of the idea that if some folks found it to be a bit much, then somehow we want to mimimize the account. Sugar-coat, I believe, was the adjective.

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I'm glad that I've hardly heard anyone say that those who didn't want to watch the violence in this movie were trying to 'deny' or 'sugar-coat' Jesus' suffering.

That's really not the point. The point is, we do know about it and we don't believe that watching a depiction of it will be beneficial to our faith.

Helen

JC 101 FM said:

These were the people that hated Christ. I don't think they took him out for dinner before they handed him over.

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They struck Him during the Sanhedrin (illegal) trial according to Scripture. Does anyone really think that they suddenly got mean at that point?

moogirl said:

I'm not sure why modern Christians are so caught up in "emotional experiences" to begin with, actually.

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Because the faith is young no matter how long they have been a Christian. The faith never matured. That's the biggest problem in modern day Christianity...young faith that needs an excess of emotions like teenagers tend to be overly emotional. Sooner or later we patiently expect teens to grow up and mature and allow wisdom to take the place of some emotions and the same is true for Christians. At some point folks need to grow their faith up and allow wisdom to take the place of all these emotions being promoted as faith.

Christ has been around from the beginning of time till the end of time and has had a ministry every since the beginning of time. The 24 hours he was arrested, tried, beaten and crucified is just ONE day in Christ's eternity. Yes it is an important day but people are crying over this. What if Jesus died peacefully in his sleep? He still died. As long as he arose then the HOW he died to my knowledge is not the biggest factor. Jesus said nobody takes his life he willfully gave it up. So be it him dying in his sleep or on a cross either way he gave up his life. But if he died in his sleep nobody would be crying like they are doing now. People are focusing on HOW he died instead of WHY he died. If Jesus never rose again then how he died would not even matter in terms of salvation.

Remember that these were the Temple guards -- people who were in the employ of those who most wanted to "get" Jesus. Why is simple: To make the bosses happy.

I would add that they came to Him carrying swords and staves even though He preached openly in the day and was visible as a non-violent type. I don't think these guys were in a peaceful mood. I know how cops think. They get themselves psyched up for large, important arrests.

Consider also that one of His disciples had fought and even wounded one of thier guys. Cops tend to take that personally.

It is simply more likely to have happened than not.

its ok moogirl you make good points.

This is a great movie because it has so many thinking and talking about Christ. Non-Christian forums are filled with conversation about this movie because of it's incredible success. Christians are in those forums talking about why Christ died. God is using this, the message is greater than the medium.


Phil 1:18.. Just in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is being proclaimed, and because of this I rejoice..

I've seen the movie a second time.

The scourging scene.
The scourging took place ON SCREEN for 5 minutes, then there was a cut away of Mary and Magdalen and John.. then we go back to ON SCREEN scourging.

So it is NOT 20 uninteruppted minutes of on screen scourging.

go kenny.

Hello,

I am new here. I came looking for answers I have about this movie and the characters as they were portrayed. I apologize if this is inappropriate in some way perhaps considered "hijacking" the thread. The title referred to the movie, I read each post and my questions fall in line with your comments. I also apologize for not taking time to read through the other thread on The Passion movie with 5000+ posts (if I am not mistaken). At the risk of asking questions answered and comments made elsewhere this seems to be a friendly thread.

Quick background: There may be a term describing my place in the world of the Christian community. I have not routinely attended church or study groups and have a limited knowledge of the bible. I have only read portions of it. I read rule #7 when registering and did consider myself Christian according to that outline.

I saw this movie the day it opened. This is a film that requires you to have read the book. In this case a very important book. General knowledge is not quite enough. Even though I have listened to many points of view I am still only piecing together an understanding. I might be someone's victory/success because I now have a strong interest in understanding these events as a result of viewing the movie.

A few questions: In the film, who was the young man with Mary and Mary Magdalene? Reading this thread I suspect it may have been John. Immediately following Jesus' death is an earthquake and storm. Is this mentioned in the bible? Is Pontius Pilate's wife mentioned? Did Judas kill himself?

I liked the movie but I think it would have been more universally powerful if it had been written and filmed without plans to provide subtitles and instead shown as a moving painting using symbolism, gestures, facial nuances, activities, lighting, music, etc. Paintings have said volumes without text or dialogue. The sound track is robust with effective use of sounds, variable spacial placement and music. The opening scenes in the garden have so much potential as a base to flash back and forward so more of what lead to the crucifixion could be included, (Yes, using only Aramaic and Latin). It is possible to make a film that could convey the events without needing subtitles. And it may have been more widely accepted, even appealing to non-religious people. This idea may require that you see what I imagine to appreciate it.

There is power in certain scenes. Had the scourging been broken up with flashes forward and backward it could have remained central yet avoided the excessive attention given the beating rather than what it represented. Many of the scenes were postcard poses without soliciting true involvement from the actors playing Mary, Mary Magdalene and the young man. The Jesus depicted is more of a tough guy taking a beating. I think of Jesus as a man with power in his presence, full of love and grace so strong and clear of purpose that common people would take notice. In the few scenes prior to his arrest these qualities are not effectively displayed in the character of Jesus.

Overall, there is a strength to the film unlike previous attempts to depict events in the life of Jesus. Personally, the openning scene with Jesus talking to God and experiencing anxiety over what is about to happen is very powerful. I wish there was more like that and less dwelling on drunken soldiers having fun beating a man.

Thank you