The Pasion on 20th Nissan...?

[Goinheix]

I can demostrate that the present composition of the trial of Jesus in one mornig, is not the product of the Apostles, nor of the early church. It is not based on tradition (transmitioon of knowledge) but started in the IV Century out of a very light reading of the Gospels.

I can demostrate that the scriptures indicates a long trial that lasted several days. That each day it is signaled in the Gospels and that nothing is left to the imagination.

I have just done that. Now it is your (all of you) turn to study my posts and try - if you can - to found anything that is not supported in the scripture. Try to found somethig that is coming of my imagination.

 

[Goinheix]

Do somebody found a mistake on my chronology? Can we assume that it is correct? Is it time to correct the traditional chronology? How can we reach all pastors and tell them about the correct chronology? Will you contact your pastor and/or seminar?

 

[Goinheix]

There is thousand books mentioning the pasion in the 14th or the 15th; and every year are millons prechers repeating the same mistake. Dont you think it is time to correct all of them?

 

[Goinheix]

I can demostrate that the present composition of the trial of Jesus in one mornig, is not the product of the Apostles, nor of the early church. It is not based on tradition (transmitioon of knowledge) but started in the IV Century out of a very light reading of the Gospels.

I can demostrate that the scriptures indicates a long trial that lasted several days. That each day it is signaled in the Gospels and that nothing is left to the imagination.

I have just done that. Now it is your (all of you) turn to study my posts and try - if you can - to found anything that is not supported in the scripture. Try to found somethig that is coming of my imagination.

 

[Don Oscar]

The interpretation that Jesus was crucified the very same day of his arrest is traditional but is not what the Gospels say.

"The interpretation that Jesus was crucified the very same day of his arrest" is not traditional at all. It was not the product of knowledge transmition but started several years later; being a big gap in the tradition (transmition of knowledge). We can say that it is main stream, or that it is popular, or that it is the official position; but not traditional at all.

 

[Aquiles]

Do somebody found a mistake on my chronology? Can we assume that it is correct? Is it time to correct the traditional chronology? How can we reach all pastors and tell them about the correct chronology? Will you contact your pastor and/or seminar?

The Pandora dilemma
Do you want us spot problems and mistakes in your exposition? Here goes one. John 19:14 says that Jesus was before Pilates by the 6th hours, while the synoptic place Jesus at the cross by the 3rd hour. You take that as Jesus being at Pilates one day by the 6th hour, and being crucified by the 3rd hour next day. The problem is that the same verse says that Jesus was at Pilates by the 6th hours in the preparation day for Passover; and few verses later, John states that Jesus was crucified on a preparation day for Passover. That is the same day. John is saying that Jesus was crucified the same day as he was before Pilates.

How to understand John 19:14? I have been studying it and can´t avoid the Pandora dilemma. The Pandora dilemma is that whatever answer we try; we open the scriptures to doubt of them. All possible answers include not to trust any more on the scriptures. And we don’t want that. Do we?

First answer:
At the I Century it was not good methods to measure time. At least not a method at hand of everybody, everywhere at all times. John and the synoptic didn’t have a good clock to determine the exact hour. That is a good answer; but it implies that not only John, but the Holy Spirit is inaccurate. And if the Holy Spirit was inaccurate in that detail; how we know He is accurate in others facts? How can we trust in the Bible, the NT and the Gospels if we commence doubting of all we don´t understand.

If the account on the Gospels include inaccurate information; what is the purpose of providing that piece of information?

If the times are not accurate; then we have to figure out what were the actual times of events:
A) Jesus was at Pilates not by the 6th hour, but by the 2nd hour; and he was crucified by the 3rd.
B) Jesus was at Pilates not by the 6th hour, but by the 4th hour; and he was crucified not by the 3rd hour, but by the 5th hour.
C) Jesus was not at Pilates by the 6th hour, but by the 3rd hour; and he was crucified not by the 3th hour, but by the 4th hour.

Second answer:
It is a problem of the copyists. We suppose that we don´t have the original verse as John wrote it. Only that if we commence disbelieving every verse we don´t like, or doesn´t fit with our doctrine; we will lost the only sure source of the truth. We don´t have any alternative reading; any document offering a different text. We cannot commence doubting on every verse we don´t like the way it is.

If that is not the original reading of John 19:14; then it could be:
A) The original verse did not mention the day or hour.
B) The original verse did not mention the day.
C) The original verse did not mention the hour.
D) The original verse did mention hour and then day (backward as it is)

 

[Aquiles]

W. Hendriksen have demostrated that John is using roman hours. The 6th hour is 6 am; 3 hour before crucifixion.

Romans, Greeks, Hebrews, Asirians and Egyptians had the same time system from sunrise to sunset. The midnight to noon and noon to midnight system was created with the invention of the mechanical clocks.

John 11:9 According to Jesus (and John), tte day has 12 hours, from sunrise to sunset.

John 1:39 The 10th hour is not 10AM, nor is 10PM. Jesus is asking the disci`ples to stay because it was geting late. Obviously is not 10AM, and also 10PM is way too late. The 10th hour is 4PM, 2 hours before sunset.

John 4:6 The 6th hour is not 6AM, nor is 6PM. It is noon and Jesus is thursty and hungry. It is noon.

John 19:14 The 6th hour is not 6AM nor 6PM. The jew did prepare the Passover Lamb bt 12 noon. John is saying that Jesus was at Pilates by noon not by 6Am.

We are stack with the Pandora problem.

 

[granpa]

Thank you Aquiles.

I'm going to add that to my article (in a ref)

Gospel harmony (based on Matthew) - Religion-wiki

 

[Aquiles]

John 19:14 is saying it was the preparation day. It is not that the Jew have something to preapare but that it was the day previous to a sabbath, to a High Sabbath actually.

Not only that. If we read chapter 19, we will read it in a continuity, without jumping into a new day. From Pilates to the cross there is not any break. It is the same day. Jesus were crucified on a preparation day, and was at Pilates a preparation day. It is always the same preparation day. isn-t it?

 

[Zeleste]

First answer:
At the I Century it was not good methods to measure time. At least not a method at hand of everybody, everywhere at all times. John and the synoptic didn’t have a good clock to determine the exact hour. That is a good answer; but it implies that not only John, but the Holy Spirit is inaccurate. And if the Holy Spirit was inaccurate in that detail; how we know He is accurate in others facts? How can we trust in the Bible, the NT and the Gospels if we commence doubting of all we don´t understand.

If the account on the Gospels include inaccurate information; what is the purpose of providing that piece of information?

If the times are not accurate; then we have to figure out what were the actual times of events:
A) Jesus was at Pilates not by the 6th hour, but by the 2nd hour; and he was crucified by the 3rd.
B) Jesus was at Pilates not by the 6th hour, but by the 4th hour; and he was crucified not by the 3rd hour, but by the 5th hour.
C) Jesus was not at Pilates by the 6th hour, but by the 3rd hour; and he was crucified not by the 3th hour, but by the 4th hour.

In that case we can not trust our eternal life in a book with severe inacuracies. Did Christ died in the cross? Probably that is another inacuracy. Did Christ resurrect? We can not be sure... the so called "Book of God" is full of mistakes and inacuracies as any other book.

Accusing the Bible and the Holy Spirit of inacuracy is not the answer.

 

[Zeleste]

Second answer:
It is a problem of the copyists. We suppose that we don´t have the original verse as John wrote it. Only that if we commence disbelieving every verse we don´t like, or doesn´t fit with our doctrine; we will lost the only sure source of the truth. We don´t have any alternative reading; any document offering a different text. We cannot commence doubting on every verse we don´t like the way it is.

If that is not the original reading of John 19:14; then it could be:
A) The original verse did not mention the day or hour.
B) The original verse did not mention the day.
C) The original verse did not mention the hour.
D) The original verse did mention hour and then day (backward as it is)

We have hundres of documents containing that verse but no one of those copies make us suspect of a copying mistake. What you are proposing is that we Christians can formulate any doctrine or truth, and declare that all verses contradicting us are copying mistakes. At the end of the day we can not trust in the Bible we read every day.

 

[Zeleste]

The only answer is to believe what we read: Jesus was before pilates by noon, and was crucified by mid-morning (next day). He was crucified on Nisan 20th, preparation of the Passover Sabbath on the 21st. Jesus was before Pilates the 19th at noon, and in that afternoon (as well all afternoons of that week) the Jew have to prepare that night Passover diner.

 

[William Priebe]

A Demonstration Turns Deadly



Originally posted by Aquilles
“The Pandora dilemma
Do you want us spot problems and mistakes in your exposition? Here goes one. John 19:14 says that Jesus was before Pilates by the 6th hours, while the synoptic place Jesus at the cross by the 3rd hour. You take that as Jesus being at Pilates one day by the 6th hour, and being crucified by the 3rd hour next day. The problem is that the same verse says that Jesus was at Pilates by the 6th hours in the preparation day for Passover; and few verses later, John states that Jesus was crucified on a preparation day for Passover. That is the same day. John is saying that Jesus was crucified the same day as he was before Pilates.”

• The Gospel of John shows that the Council conversed back and forth with Pilate on a couple occasions. Thus Jesus was first seen by Pilate on Tuesday morning (JHN 18:28) with much disputing to follow.
• On Wednesday morning He was flogged in a mock-like crucifixion manner at 9 am. in the 3rd hour (MRK 15: 25). He was than seen lastly by Pilate and condemned by the the Sanhedrin Council to be crucified in the 6th hour (JHN 19:14) at 12pm.
  
  * This is the only possible reconciliation between MRK 15:25 and JHN 19:14 .

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[Tim316]

Nissan 20th as the crucifixion date is so far only my proposal, very controversial and rejected (so far)

This theory is based actually on the obstacles of the other two proposals: 14 and 15. If Jesus was not crucified on the 14 or the 15, then He was crucified some other date. It happens that reading the Pentateuch, the Passover fest was not restricted to the first day, but last a week long, being a lamb sacrificed every day. That makes possible – just possible – for Christ being the Lamb if crucified any date of that week long Passover. The point is that the only days that are preparation days are the 14th and the 20th. If is not the 14th, then is the 20th.

The problem with the 20th is that besides being a logical and smart solution, it seems not to have any support on the Gospels. But it has. The interpretation that Jesus was crucified the very same day of his arrest is traditional but is not what the Gospels say.

The Gospels recorded that Jesus was before the Sanhedrin by sunrise; and also he was before Pilates by sunrise. That makes at least two sunrises between the arrest and the crucifixion. The Gospels also states that Jesus was before Pilates by noon, and that Jesus was crucified by 9 AM. The only explanation is that Jesus was crucified next day morning after being at Pilates. Searching for more evidence I found that Peter did denied Jesus along two days.

Not only that. Paul says that Jesus kept appearing to the disciples for 40 days. That is the exact numbers of days between the Sunday after the 20th and Pentecost.

Also there are external evidence. The judicial system of the Roman Empire makes impossible for a man being crucified with a few hours trial. The same happens with the Jew judicial system. Both denies a crucifixion the same day of the arrest.

Additionally there is some practical problem. It is hard to have Jesus at the cross by 9 AM if he has to be trialed for Anas, Caiaphas, the Sanhedrin, Pilates, Herod, and Pilates again. Not only that, but the Gospels describe the trial at the Sanhedrin as way too long. And not to forget Jesus being presented to the multitude, and all the punishment that both the Jew and the Roman applied on Jesus. It is impossible for all that to happens in about three hours.

 

[Tim316]

Until now I have presented evidence of several days (minimum of 3) that necessarily separate the day of the arrest from the day of the crucifixion. Now I will point out some more facts that are based not on evidence as the above, but in the good understanding and common sense. I want to emphasize the difference between the above evidence and the following interpretation.


In Matthew 27:18 we read of the Pilates wife that had have bad dreams concerning Jesus trial. It can be interpreted as dreams give by God to her. But that is not what the text says. Also makes not sense since God intentions were not to save Jesus from the crucifixion.

For a moment imagine that instead of having bad dreams she was experimenting stomach pain. How do you interpret it? Is it God giving her that pain? Probably a Christian doctor will suggest that she eat something that gives that pain. What a Christian doctor will suggest as cause of those bad dreams? Probably he will suggest that she went to sleep very concern about that Jew claiming to be the son of some god; and worried with the consequences of being killed by her husband.

The possibility that Matt 27:18 is opening is that Jesus was before Pilates one day; before Herod next day; and back to Pilates one day later. That gives to the Pilates wife all the conditions to be concerned and worried. In that condition she went to sleep the night and woke up next morning with the bad dreams.

Does it sound OK or too crazy?

(I have divided post #10 in to parts)