The Partial Preterist Believers Safe House

Quoting more from Adam Maarschalk:
The fourth kingdom of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream wasn’t Rome. It was Israel – “as strong as iron” (Daniel 2:33, 40) at first, and “partly strong and partly fragile” (Daniel 2:33, 41-43) later. It’s important to keep in mind that the timeline of Nebuchadnezzar’s image would only extend until the stone would crush its feet (Daniel 2:34, 44; Matthew 21:44). Greece/Macedonia was the belly and thighs of the image, and the fourth kingdom was the legs and the feet, the final part of that timeline. It was Israel, not Rome, that was later crushed by the stone. ~ Rome Congratulated Israel on Becoming the Fourth Kingdom of Daniel 2

Still more from the same link above:

In 70 AD the Roman general Titus attested to the semi-independence of Israel during the preceding period. He addressed the Jewish Zealot leaders and gave a speech which painted a picture of the privileges, exceptions, and advantages that Israel enjoyed while under the jurisdiction of Rome from 63 BC to 66 AD (a period of 129 years):

Kingdom #4 (Iron & Iron-Clay/Legs & Feet) to the Everlasting Kingdom (Mountain of God)

The transition from the fourth kingdom to the everlasting kingdom of the saints was predicted by Jesus in Matthew 21:42-44. In Matthew 21, we see that the kingdom was going to be taken away from the Chief Priests and the Pharisees. If Rome was the fourth kingdom of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream and the kingdom was in the hands of the Roman Empire, as is so often taught, then how was the kingdom going to be taken away from the leaders of Israel? Jesus uses the language of Daniel here:




Perhaps a similar picture of this transfer is also seen in Matthew 8:10-12, in the words that Jesus spoke to the centurion:

Why did Jesus refer to the people of Israel as “the sons of the kingdom”? Was it merely because of the common assumption that the people of Israel were the rightful heirs of the kingdom? Or was Jesus also referring to the fact that the fourth kingdom of Nebuchadnezzar’s vision was in the hands of Israel? About 40 years later, of course, it would no longer be in their hands. It would be in the hands of the saints. ~ Rome Congratulated Israel on Becoming the Fourth Kingdom of Daniel 2

It's possible, mkgal 1, but - just compare the Jews AS AN EMPIRE to Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Alexander's Greece

It's like comparing a hummingbird to Eagles

mkgal1 said:

It's true that Israel was under Roman occupation - but I'm still wresting with all this. God hadn't given Rome any religious legal authority - that was given to the Israelites (and I'm thinking this is what's front and center on this - religious legal authority). That's why, I believe, it's ancient Jerusalem that's the "harlot" - because there was no expectation for the Roman Empire to be faithful to God.

Click to expand...

Rome had political authority and had the power of life and death over those they ruled.

I would think that Yahweh put Gentile heathens in place to chastise His children if they become lawbreakers disobeying Him
Notice John and Romans

John 19:8 When Pilate heard this statement, he was even more afraid, 9and he went back into the Praetorium. “Where are You from?” he asked.But Jesus gave no answer.
10So Pilate said to Him, “Do You refuse to speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You and authority to crucify You?”

11Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one[Judas/Religious Rulers] who handed Me over to you is guilty of greater sin.”
12From then on, Pilate tried to release Him, but the Jews kept shouting, “If you release this man, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who declares himself a king is defying Caesar.” 13When Pilate heard these words, he brought Jesus out and sat on the judgment seat at a place called the Stone Pavement, which in Aramaica is Gabbatha. 14It was the day of Preparation for the Passover, about the sixth hour.b And Pilate said to the Jews, “Here is your King!”
15At this, they shouted, “Away with Him! Away with Him! Crucify Him!”
“Shall I crucify your King?” Pilate asked.
“We have no king but Caesar,” replied the chief priests.
================================
I appeal to Caesar! Acts 25:11

Romans 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,
4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
=========================
And even He says that His chosen will go thru trials and tribulation

Luk 21:12
“But before all these things, they [1st century Jewish Rulers] will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons<5438>.
You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.

James 1:12
Blessed is the man enduring trial<3986>; for when he has been approved, he will receive the Crown of the Life which the Lord promises to those who love Him.

Revelation 2:10 "fear not...ye shall have tribulation 10 days"

Revelation 2:10 No yet thou be fearing! which-things thou are being about to be suffering
Behold! the Devil is being about to be casting ye into a prison<5438>, that ye may be being tried<3985>. And ye shall be having tribulation ten days,
Be thou becoming faithful until death! and I shall be giving to thee the Crown of the Life.

Tra Phull said:

It's possible, mkgal 1, but - just compare the Jews AS AN EMPIRE to Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Alexander's Greece

It's like comparing a hummingbird to Eagles

Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying - but I don't believe it's about size or strength, I believe it's about God and His covenant with the Israelites - and how they'd been set apart as a nation for His glory from the beginning.

The way I'm seeing it now - instead of the religious leaders (and especially the zealot movement) relying on God to be their strength.....they, instead, relied on appeasing the Roman government (which led to more and more corruption). Remember this passage:

Tra Phull said:

It's possible, mkgal 1, but - just compare the Jews AS AN EMPIRE to Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Alexander's Greece

It's like comparing a hummingbird to Eagles

Click to expand...

Something Jesus said about the contrast:

.....and fighting is exactly what the zealots were doing in order to try to maintain control over the Romans.

mkgal1 said:

Something Jesus said about the contrast:

John 18:36 ~ Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world; if it were, My servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews. But now, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

​

.....and fighting is exactly what the zealots were doing in order to try to maintain control over the Romans.

Click to expand...

I would suggest a little reading of Josephus’s account of what led up to the war. As I said before the Jews were the only people excempt from mandatory government imposed worship of the Gods. The emperor Caligula didn’t like that. So he sent an army with his statue to be placed in the temple. When they started their march into Judea they were met by Jewish elders who begged and wept before the general to please do not do this. The general had compassion on them and took his life in his own hands to disobey the emperor. Caligula died before he returned to Rome. But Nero, I gather being angry with the Jews about the whole episode sent a series of horribly cruel and corrupt governors over it. The last one, the one who actually started the war released the bandits, thugs and murders from prison and told them to steal kill murder who ever they want. They just had to give a percentage of whatever they got, gold or estates to the governor. They regularly assassinated leading citizens during temple worship to steal their estates.

One time 5000 men, woman and children appeared before the governor on their hands and knees weeping to beg the governor to stop what he was doing. His response was to ride his calvary through them killing hundreds.

So that was what what brought them to war and gave rise to the zealots. Who by the way were spurned on by false prophets telling them and the people that God would now deliver them from the Romans. They, the Jews, the Zealots hadn’t control over Rome or what was happening to them.

Daniel Martinovich said:

So that was what what brought them to war and gave rise to the zealots. Who by the way were spurned on by false prophets telling them and the people that God would now deliver them from the Romans. They, the Jews, the Zealots hadn’t control over Rome or what was happening to them.

Click to expand...

From what I understand - there was a lot brewing under the surface (for over a century). Ray Vander Laan (IMO - from what I can tell) does a great job at describing the varying factions that had risen up from about 64 BC, when the Romans began to occupy Israel.

Quoting Ray Vander Laan:
Jewish people of Jesus' day had a passionate desire for freedom from the domination of the pagan Romans and the oppressive Herod dynasty that had ruled them for many years. Revolt seethed continuously, mostly underground, for more than 100 years from the time Herod became king (37 BC) until the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple (AD 70).It is helpful to realize that this underlying struggle is the backdrop for Jesus' ministry, and why so many hoped he would be a conquering king. This helps us understand why the adulation of the crowds during the triumphal entry reduced Jesus to tears, and probably why many rejected his message.

THE RISING STORM Ever since the Romans arrived on the scene in 64 BC, the Jewish people were divided over how to respond to the rule of their often corrupt governors or the Herod family who served them. The religious community, particularly the Pharisees, believed the Jewish people were to be God's instruments on earth, from whom the Messiah would come to institute that glorious age when Israel would be a great and free nation. Many others, especially the secular community and apparently some of the Sadducees, noted the present reality of the rule of Rome and determined that cooperation was the best policy. The tyrannical rule of Rome and the paganism of its religious and Hellenistic culture heightened the contrast between the situation at hand and the messianic hopes. This difference produced increasing fragmentation of the people, and several movements developed in response.

The Zealots, an ultra-nationalistic group, proclaimed revolution to be God's solution (Acts 5:37). The Essenes withdrew, waiting anxiously for the Messiah to lead a violent overthrow of the Romans and their Jewish supporters. The Sadducees apparently practiced a form of cooperation since it was Rome who kept them securely in their position over the Temple and therefore over the people (John 11:49-50). The Herodions appeared satisfied with the Herod dynasty (Matt. 22:16). The Pharisees, condemning Rome's pagan excesses, were removed from politics and viewed the foreign oppressors as God's hand punishing his people for their unfaithfulness to the Torah. The country was in turmoil, each faction longing in a different way for the freedom they desired. To this climate of confusion, hatred, and division, many so-called messiahs came, each preaching his own brand of salvation (Acts 21:38). Jesus presented his unique message of redemption. Some followed his lead, but many did not. During feast days, especially Passover, tensions reached fever pitch and the Romans increased their military presence to prevent open revolt. The climate existed, however, for revolution to begin.

Herod Agrippa I, grandson of Herod the Great, died in AD 44 (Acts 12:19-23). The Romans appointed a series of governors called procurators, each apparently more corrupt and cruel than the previous ruler. Groups of rebel sicarii (assassins) were everywhere, killing Romans and the Jews who cooperated with them. Jonathan the high priest was assassinated. During this time, Paul was arrested (Acts 21:27-37) and accused of being one of the rebels (Acts 21:38). Popular support for the Zealots grew. The priesthood became more dependent on the Romans for security and support, and in so doing, they grew increasingly corrupt. This drove the common people toward the radical approach of the Zealots. ~ The Jewish Revolts



From “Life and Ministry of the Messiah,” Ray Vander Laan (p. 130)

I didn't know the "adulation of the crowds" brought Jesus to tears - Jesus wept on the way to resurrect Lazarus, and we don't know WHY He wept. But I see nothing about "adulation of the crowds" making Jesus cry. Where did THAT come from?

Tra Phull said:

I didn't know the "adulation of the crowds" brought Jesus to tears - Jesus wept on the way to resurrect Lazarus, and we don't know WHY He wept. But I see nothing about "adulation of the crowds" making Jesus cry. Where did THAT come from?

Click to expand...

Luke 19:37-38 ~
Now He came near the path down the Mount of Olives, and the whole crowd of the disciples began to praise God joyfully with a loud voice for all the miracles they had seen: Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord.

Luke 19:41-44 ~
As He approached and saw the city, He wept over it,
saying, "If you knew this day what [would bring] peace-but now it is hidden from your eyes.
For the days will come on you when your enemies will build an embankment against you, surround you, and hem you in on every side.
They will crush you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave one stone on another in you, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation."

OK, He cried over the City cuz they were rejecting everything, that is still not "adulation of the crowds..." as the reason for tears

I see 3 different things,

1. adulation of crowds - Jesus tells people, " I am not gonna shut them up, rocks and hills would cry out" but there are no tears about cheering crowds

2. Weeping over Jerusalem is " how often would I have gathered you as hen does chicks, but ye would not"

3. Crying about Lazarus, who He knew He would raise, is a different matter

I am not trying to poo-poo the guy's whole article, mkgal, I just reject this one item of adulation of crowds causing tears

Daniel Martinovich said:

They, the Jews, the Zealots hadn’t control over Rome or what was happening to them.

Click to expand...

From what I've read - it looks that the zealots *did* seize control of Jerusalem over Rome from 66 A.D. to 70 A.D. after the victory over Cestius Gallus in November AD 66.


Quoting from linked article: A classic article by the Israeli historian, Menahem Stern (1925-1989), “Zealots and Sicarii,” proposed a distinction between the Sicarii and the Zealots in terms of their loyalty:

“The Sicarii continued to be loyal to the dynasty of Judah the Galilean, their last leaders being Menahem and Eleazar b. Jair, who were scions of that house; in contrast the Zealots showed no particular loyalty to any house or dynasty.”

This article also pointed out that a “revolutionary government” was set up in Jerusalem near the beginning of the Jewish-Roman War (AD 66-73), but lasted for only about six months. This was the same temporary government that, just after the Jews defeated Cestius Gallus in November AD 66, appointed 10 Jewish generals to lead the inevitable war with Rome (Wars 2.20.3-4):


This revolutionary government soon gave way to the Zealot leaders who seized control of Jerusalem over the following 3.5 years: Eleazar ben Simon, John Levi of Gischala, and Simon Bar Giora. ~ Revelation 13:3 and the Wounded Head of the Zealot Movement

I consider myself a Partial Preterist, but don't like the label..

I am interested in mkgal' s statement that Orthodox Study Bible was instrumental in her considering Preterism - I read it, my son became Greek Orthodox 3 years ago.

Tra Phull said:

I consider myself a Partial Preterist, but don't like the label..

I am interested in mkgal' s statement that Orthodox Study Bible was instrumental in her considering Preterism - I read it, my son became Greek Orthodox 3 years ago.

Click to expand...

I can't recall where this all began, but it may have been at this point (prior to that - I never knew about the Jewish Revolts....the flight of the early church to Pella.... and even the destruction of Jerusalem - except things said in passing - and how that ties into Scripture especially prophecy):

mkgal1 said:

in looking up Rev 12:5 it states:

Quoting the Greek Orthodox Study Bible ---->

12:5 ~True Israel brings forth Christ, who after completion of His saving work, ascends to heaven (Ps 2:7-9; 46:6)

12:6 ~ The flight of the woman may refer to the flight of the Jerusalem church (embodying true Israel) to Pella before the outbreak of the Roman war. END

Click to expand...

Due to circumstances I won't go into, I now have only a KJV, a NRSV and Orthodox Study Bible.

Flight to Pella, I knew of long ago. The OSB maintains a good attitude that prophesied things happened, they are happening, and they will happen.

Tra Phull said:

Due to circumstances I won't go into, I now have only a KJV, a NRSV and Orthodox Study Bible.

Click to expand...

I don't know when the last time was that I cracked open my paper-bound Bibles. I use online Bibles now.....with all the different translations. My OSB is on my Kindle account, too.

Tra Phull said:

Flight to Pella, I knew of long ago. The OSB maintains a good attitude that prophesied things happened, they are happening, and they will happen.

Click to expand...

I agree. This article from an Eastern Orthodox author really helped me to see the whole NT in a different light:

CHRIST, ISRAEL AND THE FALL OF JERUSALEM

Well I use online Bibles now too, that made it not as terrible when I lost over 20 versions of t h e Bible, I still want a paper Bible with HUGE PRINT

Tra Phull said:

when I lost over 20 versions of the Bible,

Click to expand...

Oh no!!