The Partial Preterist Believers Safe House

muddleglum · May 21, 2015

thecolorsblend said:
. http://www.tektonics.org/eschhub.html You other Preterists don't have to agree with everything but, at a minimum, the articles offer an angle on those passages that make the most sense under a preterist model..

I read through most of the site, including the non-eschatology part and think the author needs to grow in certain areas. However, he is essentially sound, thoughtful, well-read, and strong on scripture.

parousia70 · Jul 15, 2015

JLB777 said:
Do you believe the Resurrection of the dead in Christ is past?

Yes or No?

JLB

muddleglum said:
Actually, I'll hedge. Just what do you mean? The physical resurrection? Then no.
But if you mean the "being raised with Christ" then it is recurring and therefore it is in the past and on to the future until Christ returns. It recurs when any person trusts in Christ and abides in Him. Being IN Christ means that he is also raised with Him. That "raised" is a synonym for "resurrection" but conveys the same concept.

Correct Muddle.

Resurrection, in scripture does not mean one thing only.
The bible uses the term "resurrection" to speak of national restorations, personal salvation/baptism, the transfer of departed souls in the O.T. Hades into God's heaven, and the final state of all things.

JLB777 · Jul 16, 2015

parousia70 said:
Correct Muddle.

Resurrection, in scripture does not mean one thing only.
The bible uses the term "resurrection" to speak of national restorations, personal salvation/baptism, the transfer of departed souls in the O.T. Hades into God's heaven, and the final state of all things.

The resurrection means one thing and one thing ONLY!

The resurrection from the dead.

That is why it's called the resurrection.

17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort,
18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 2 Timothy 2:17-18

Those that teach the resurrection is past, are teaching a heretical false doctrine, and have strayed from the truth.

JLB

thecolorsblend · Jul 17, 2015

The post to which you're replying stated that resurrection isn't limited to being raised bodily to life. Certainly that is one meaning but not necessarily the only one. Thus I don't see how posting sacred Scripture passages expounding upon a bodily resurrection is an adequate rebuttal.

JLB777 · Jul 17, 2015

thecolorsblend said:
The post to which you're replying stated that resurrection isn't limited to being raised bodily to life. Certainly that is one meaning but not necessarily the only one. Thus I don't see how posting sacred Scripture passages expounding upon a bodily resurrection is an adequate rebuttal.

I posted scripture that used the phrase "the" resurrection, because it refers to the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ.

That is why it is referred to as "the" resurrection.

No such thing as a "spiritual" resurrection, as the spirit is not resurrected from the dead, but rather the body.

It is a twist that preterist's use to try and validate that things are past and happened in 70 AD when they have not.

JLB

parousia70 · Jul 17, 2015

JLB777 said:
The resurrection means one thing and one thing ONLY!

The resurrection from the dead.

That is why it's called the resurrection.

17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort,
18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 2 Timothy 2:17-18

Those that teach the resurrection is past, are teaching a heretical false doctrine, and have strayed from the truth.

JLB

In YOUR view, what precisely is the error of Hymenaeus that Paul is rebuking? Is it timing that Paul has problems with? If yes, why?

Is it the nature of the event Paul has problems with? If yes, how do you know this from the passage?

LNDavout · Jul 18, 2015

I think I belong here.
I'm pulling off tar and feathers from often heated debate concerning some of the very things you guys are talking about. I study from a Scoffield Study Bible, if that tells you anything. I enjoy seeing in print just how far one can stretch the Word of God in so many directions.

However, I should state that I believe to some extent the following:

1. That the Tribulation has been ongoing since the Death of Christ.
2. That the 7-year tribulation theory is a false teaching
3. That there is no specific anti-Christ
4. That Old Testament prophecy has almost entirely been fulfilled by Christ
5. That many of the end times prophecies concerning Israel were fulfilled in 70 AD
6. That 70 AD was the reason that Christianity exploded across the Roman Empire and led directly to it's fall
7. That Daniel 9, Matthew 24, and most of the 2nd Coming references in Paul's letters were fulfilled(especially as Paul did not live to see the Temple destroyed) including 2 Thessalonians 2

Those are just a few points I hold to. If I do not belong here, let me know, as I recognize it is a safe house

ebedmelech · Jul 18, 2015

LNDavout said:
I think I belong here.
I'm pulling off tar and feathers from often heated debate concerning some of the very things you guys are talking about. I study from a Scoffield Study Bible, if that tells you anything. I enjoy seeing in print just how far one can stretch the Word of God in so many directions.

However, I should state that I believe to some extent the following:

1. That the Tribulation has been ongoing since the Death of Christ.
2. That the 7-year tribulation theory is a false teaching
3. That there is no specific anti-Christ
4. That Old Testament prophecy has almost entirely been fulfilled by Christ
5. That many of the end times prophecies concerning Israel were fulfilled in 70 AD
6. That 70 AD was the reason that Christianity exploded across the Roman Empire and led directly to it's fall
7. That Daniel 9, Matthew 24, and most of the 2nd Coming references in Paul's letters were fulfilled(especially as Paul did not live to see the Temple destroyed) including 2 Thessalonians 2

Those are just a few points I hold to. If I do not belong here, let me know, as I recognize it is a safe house

Welcome aboard LNDavout! I might tell you the very first church I attended after salvation was a Scofield Reference Bible church. They gave one to every graduate of their Bible College. It was a true Independent Fundamental, literal interpretation Independent Baptist church.

What I thank them for the most...is they stressed reading your bible. Well...I did read my bible...and I departed from their dispensational theology and eschatology, because I read my bible.

JLB777 · Jul 19, 2015

parousia70 said:
In YOUR view, what precisely is the error of Hymenaeus that Paul is rebuking? Is it timing that Paul has problems with? If yes, why?

Is it the nature of the event Paul has problems with? If yes, how do you know this from the passage?

Since there is the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and these were teaching that the resurrection was past, Paul pointed out to all of their heretical doctrine, noting that they had turned from the truth and were overthrowing the faith of some.

The timing of the resurrection of the dead in Christ will occur at His coming.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23

Since Christ comes a second time only, and all those who are Christ's will be resurrected from the dead, and every eye will see Him when He comes, we know only a liar would teach the resurrection is past.

That's why Paul could say;

Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past;

JLB

LNDavout · Jul 19, 2015

12 “At that time Michael,A)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-22083A"> the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distressB)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-22083B"> such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the bookC)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-22083C">—will be delivered.D)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-22083D"> 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake:E)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-22084E"> some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.F)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-22084F"> 3 Those who are wisea]' data-fn="#fen-NIV-22085a">[a]G)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-22085G"> will shineH)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-22085H"> like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness,I)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-22085I"> like the stars for ever and ever.J)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-22085J"> Daniel 12:1-3

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Matthew 5:24-29

It seems to me that both of these passages are talking about the resurrection at Christs' death on the cross, which is distinct from the resurrection concerning His return. The difference here is that in both cases it was before HIS resurrection and therefore a direct result of Christ conquering hell and death and clearing out all the believers and none-believers in the bowels of the Earth. From His resurrection onward the game had changed, and that is why it would seem it had passed, but in fact has not.

JLB777 · Jul 20, 2015

LNDavout said:
12 “At that time Michael,A)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-22083A"> the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distressB)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-22083B"> such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the bookC)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-22083C">—will be delivered.D)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-22083D"> 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake:E)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-22084E"> some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.F)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-22084F"> 3 Those who are wisea]' data-fn="#fen-NIV-22085a">[a]G)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-22085G"> will shineH)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-22085H"> like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness,I)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-22085I"> like the stars for ever and ever.J)' data-cr="#cen-NIV-22085J"> Daniel 12:1-3

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Matthew 5:24-29

It seems to me that both of these passages are talking about the resurrection at Christs' death on the cross, which is distinct from the resurrection concerning His return. The difference here is that in both cases it was before HIS resurrection and therefore a direct result of Christ conquering hell and death and clearing out all the believers and none-believers in the bowels of the Earth. From His resurrection onward the game had changed, and that is why it would seem it had passed, but in fact has not.

No resurrection from the dead has taken place except Jesus Christ, the first-fruit's... Whose body has been resurrected.

Those in the heart of the earth, Abraham's Bosom, were raised to heaven and are awaiting their return to earth with Jesus on the last Day, as they will receive their resurrected body that is just like the Lord's.

JLB

parousia70 · Jul 21, 2015

JLB777 said:
Those in the heart of the earth, Abraham's Bosom, were raised to heaven

When did this take place in your view?

I am of the view that 1 Thess 4:13-17 is a discussion of when the O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies. In short, Paul says that their release from Hades was about to happen, as the impending historic change of the covenants (Heb 8:13/2 Cor 3:6-11) was to be marked by the Temple's profanation/desecration (2 Thess 2:3-4/Matt 23:33-24:2) and God's wrath on their disobedient Jewish countrymen (1 Thess 2:15-16/Mt 23:33-38/Acts 3:22-24).

As your position seems to affirm, Just about everyone who studies NT theology knows that a major change took place for the dead back in the first century. In OT times, the dead did *not* ascend into Heaven but rather were prevented from doing so by the absence of a covenant that cleansed them fully. Moreover, nearly all christian groups admit that a change has occurred for the dead between the OT times and the NT times. I am making the case that the bible teaches it took place when the Temple was destroyed during their "visitation" (Luke 19:40-44), in the days of vengeance (Luke 21:20-22).

The destruction of the Temple was hugely significant in that it was the historic signifier that the Old Covenant had vanished and the New had replaced it. Moreover, the destruction of the Temple was a key teaching of Christ, and one St. Paul picks up on at 2 Thess 2:3-4. And so I believe the most obvious and biblical understanding of 1 Thess 4 is that the dead in Hades were to be united to Christ when the Temple was profaned and desecrated. The "change" was huge, for it was the precise "change" that we think of when we distinguish the Old Covenant from the New Covenant.

So now that I've made mine, make your case for WHEN you believe this "raising" of the OT Dead into Christs presence in the heavenlies took place, if you don't agree with me..

parousia70 · Jul 21, 2015

JLB777 said:
That's why Paul could say;

Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past;

JLB

Why didn't Paul simply take them to the graveyard and show them that the graves were still sealed?

thecolorsblend · Jul 21, 2015

parousia70 said:
The destruction of the Temple was hugely significant in that it was the historic signifier that the Old Covenant had vanished and the New had replaced it.

To tangent for a moment, this event was what caused me to abandon Pre-Trib theology.

A key component of PTT is the third temple. The Antichrist supposedly storms in, does his thing, desecrates the place and there is an abomination.

Track that out.

According to the PTT view, the desecration is what causes REAL JUDGMENT in Revelation. Up to then, you could view the judgments as the leash being taken off natural causes, natural events and so forth. But after that point, according to pre-tribbers, God actively begins pouring out GENUINE WRATH. It gets pretty crazy.

Clearly God is very angry at this point in the PTT model and it shows in His judgments, plagues and so forth.

Think about that. The only logical way God could get that angry about desecration would be if it's a valid temple. Logically the sacrifices going on there would have to be acceptable to God and that temple would have to be His legitimate dwelling place on Earth according to the PT view.

This runs contrary to so much of Protestant Christian theology, the primary adherents of PTT. They at least say that Our Lord's sacrifice is complete, perfect and sufficient for all time. It was made once and for all and needs no further modifications or additions. They profess that belief.

But that raises the question... which of those two is it? Is Our Lord's sacrifice perfect and eternal? Or will God someday accept animal sacrifices in a temple? The PTT adherents can't have it both ways. They can't argue on the one hand that Our Lord's death on the cross is the eternal, definitive remedy for sin on the one hand and, on the other, wittingly or unwittingly argue for the viability of animal sacrifices at some point in the future.

Logically it must be one or the other. Right?

JLB777 · Jul 22, 2015

parousia70 said:
When did this take place in your view?

I am of the view that 1 Thess 4:13-17 is a discussion of when the O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies. In short, Paul says that their release from Hades was about to happen, as the impending historic change of the covenants (Heb 8:13/2 Cor 3:6-11) was to be marked by the Temple's profanation/desecration (2 Thess 2:3-4/Matt 23:33-24:2) and God's wrath on their disobedient Jewish countrymen (1 Thess 2:15-16/Mt 23:33-38/Acts 3:22-24).

As your position seems to affirm, Just about everyone who studies NT theology knows that a major change took place for the dead back in the first century. In OT times, the dead did *not* ascend into Heaven but rather were prevented from doing so by the absence of a covenant that cleansed them fully. Moreover, nearly all christian groups admit that a change has occurred for the dead between the OT times and the NT times. I am making the case that the bible teaches it took place when the Temple was destroyed during their "visitation" (Luke 19:40-44), in the days of vengeance (Luke 21:20-22).

The destruction of the Temple was hugely significant in that it was the historic signifier that the Old Covenant had vanished and the New had replaced it. Moreover, the destruction of the Temple was a key teaching of Christ, and one St. Paul picks up on at 2 Thess 2:3-4. And so I believe the most obvious and biblical understanding of 1 Thess 4 is that the dead in Hades were to be united to Christ when the Temple was profaned and desecrated. The "change" was huge, for it was the precise "change" that we think of when we distinguish the Old Covenant from the New Covenant.

So now that I've made mine, make your case for WHEN you believe this "raising" of the OT Dead into Christs presence in the heavenlies took place, if you don't agree with me..

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Matthew 27:51-53

These were taken into heaven and are awaiting the return of Jesus Christ at the end of the age when He returns to Gather His people at the resurrection and Rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Paul explains the OT saints raised to heaven.

7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:7-10

The OT saints were raised to heaven when Jesus ascended there.

The await the Day of the Lord, whereby they will return with Him to receive their immortal bodies that will never die, along with those who are alive and remain at the Coming of the Lord, when every eye will see Him.

The Apostle John lived to see the Lord coming in His kingdom, just as the Lord predicted to His disciples.

Here is what John saw into the future and recorded for us...

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,followed Him on white horses.
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Revelation 19:11-21

The Day of the Lord, when Jesus returns with His saints and removes the wicked.

A Day we are all looking forward to.

JLB

parousia70 · Jul 23, 2015

JLB777 said:
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Matthew 27:51-53

Where does scripture teach that these "raisings' were of any different nature than a resuscitation like Lazarus' rising, the rising of Jarius' daughter, or the boy raised by Elijah? According to Hebrews 11:35, such resuscitations are not the "better resurrection." In the "better resurrection," there is no way to die again. You have no scriptural basis to claim these people, like Lazarus, et al, did NOT go on to die again after being raised.

These were taken into heaven and are awaiting the return of Jesus Christ at the end of the age when He returns to Gather His people at the resurrection and Rapture.

What scripture teaches that the people who came out of their graves after Christ's Resurrection were subsequently "taken into heaven"? Where is this taught beyond your assumptions?

Paul explains the OT saints raised to heaven.

7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:7-10

The OT saints were raised to heaven when Jesus ascended there.

No. The "captivity" that a triumphant King would "lead captive" was his bound enemies. The victorious king would lead a parade through town, marching his bound prisoners in a public display to shame them and gloat over them (Col 1:15 uses this concept too). That is why bible expositors discussing Eph 4:8 often point to the broken dominion of the enemies Satan (1 Jn 3:8; Col 1:15), sin (Rom 6:14), and death (Rom 6:9) -- these were the "captivity" that Christ led away as his captives. So the "captivity" one leads captive are one's enemies who have been triumphed over. This notion is also the sense of Psalm 68:17-18 concerning the exodus, Sinai and the defeat of the pagans in the promised land.

Additionally, in the spectacle of the public parade the King receives gifts in homage (Ps 68:18,29,31) and he generously distributes the spoils of war to his own citizens (Ps 68:19). With Christ, he distributes the spoils of his war unto the Church in the form of the charismata given unto mankind, making them Chosen apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, and teachers with him (Eph 4:8,11)

JLB777 · Jul 23, 2015

parousia70 said:
Where does scripture teach that these "raisings' were of any different nature than a resuscitation like Lazarus' rising, the rising of Jarius' daughter, or the boy raised by Elijah? According to Hebrews 11:35, such resuscitations are not the "better resurrection." In the "better resurrection," there is no way to die again. You have no scriptural basis to claim these people, like Lazarus, et al, did NOT go on to die again after being raised.

What scripture teaches that the people who came out of their graves after Christ's Resurrection were subsequently "taken into heaven"? Where is this taught beyond your assumptions?

No. The "captivity" that a triumphant King would "lead captive" was his bound enemies. The victorious king would lead a parade through town, marching his bound prisoners in a public display to shame them and gloat over them (Col 1:15 uses this concept too). That is why bible expositors discussing Eph 4:8 often point to the broken dominion of the enemies Satan (1 Jn 3:8; Col 1:15), sin (Rom 6:14), and death (Rom 6:9) -- these were the "captivity" that Christ led away as his captives. So the "captivity" one leads captive are one's enemies who have been triumphed over. This notion is also the sense of Psalm 68:17-18 concerning the exodus, Sinai and the defeat of the pagans in the promised land.

Additionally, in the spectacle of the public parade the King receives gifts in homage (Ps 68:18,29,31) and he generously distributes the spoils of war to his own citizens (Ps 68:19). With Christ, he distributes the spoils of his war unto the Church in the form of the charismata given unto mankind, making them Chosen apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, and teachers with him (Eph 4:8,11)

The saints are now in heaven, and are awaiting the return of Jesus Christ that they may return with Him, at the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

the Lord Himself will descend from heaven...God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

The Lord returns with His saints, who have been raised to heaven, and are awaiting their immortal body that will never die, which all the dead in Christ will receive at His Coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
Revelation 19:11-14

The saints are seen in heaven, following the Lord back to earth.

John was one of the ones standing there with Jesus when he said -

Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:28

John saw Jesus Coming in His kingdom and recorded it for us, here in Revelation 19.

Now the burden is on you to prove these saints that are seen following the Lord as He returns to earth, were not raised from the graves, as Matthew 27 records...
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Prove to me from the scriptures that these who came out of their graves did not ascend to Heaven, when Jesus ascended.

JLB

parousia70 · Jul 24, 2015

JLB777 said:
Prove to me from the scriptures that these who came out of their graves did not ascend to Heaven, when Jesus ascended.

JLB

The onus is not on me to prove a negative JLB, the onus is on you, the claimant, to prove your claim, which you have not done.

JLB777 · Jul 26, 2015

parousia70 said:
The onus is not on me to prove a negative JLB, the onus is on you, the claimant, to prove your claim, which you have not done.

Yes I did that quite thoroughly, which is why you have no scripture to prove that the saints in heaven, that return with Jesus, are not among those who came out of their tombs when He was resurrected.

The saints who came out of the tombs when Jesus was resurrected, are now in heaven, and are awaiting the return of Jesus Christ that they may return with Him, at the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

the Lord Himself will descend from heaven...God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
The Lord returns with His saints, who have been raised to heaven, and are awaiting their immortal body that will never die, which all the dead in Christ will receive at His Coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
Revelation 19:11-14

The saints are seen in heaven, following the Lord back to earth.

John was one of the ones standing there with Jesus when he said -

Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:28

John saw Jesus Coming in His kingdom and recorded it for us, here in Revelation 19.
Now the burden is on you to prove these saints that are seen following the Lord as He returns to earth, were not raised from the graves, as Matthew 27 records...
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ is for all of those who are His, and happens for all at the same time...

at His Coming.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23

all shall be made alive... at His Coming.

those who are Christ's ... not part of those who are Christ's, but all those who are Christ's will be Resurrected/Raptured at His Coming, and shall all be changed in a moment.

JLB

random person · Jul 26, 2015

JLB777 said:
The resurrection means one thing and one thing ONLY!

The resurrection from the dead.

That is why it's called the resurrection.

17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort,
18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 2 Timothy 2:17-18

Those that teach the resurrection is past, are teaching a heretical false doctrine, and have strayed from the truth.

JLB

Yeah, because they said the resurrection was already past way back before Paul even composed his letter. And that letter was written pre 70 AD.

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