The Partial Preterist Believers Safe House

Belly Rumble · Nov 23, 2014

Its a shame, because in it you find answers to : 1.) What is the Day of the Lord 2.) What is the Wrath of the Lamb 3.) What is the Day of His Fierce Anger 4.) When does Jesus Return in all His Glory to receive His Bride to Him 5.) When and What is the Wheat / Tare Threshing 6.) When does Russia become the guard for the Muslim Antichrist 7.) Who are the 144,000 and What is there mission. What are the two visions of people in Rev 7 & Rev 15. 8.) Does Israel bear the brunt of the 7 Trumpets 9.) How many days after the Abomination of Desolation does the 7th Trumpet sound 10.) How many days after the Abomination of Desolation does Jesus Return and Resurrect/Translate us. God Bless

ebedmelech · Nov 23, 2014

Belly Rumble said:
Its a shame, because in it you find answers to : 1.) What is the Day of the Lord 2.) What is the Wrath of the Lamb 3.) What is the Day of His Fierce Anger 4.) When does Jesus Return in all His Glory to receive His Bride to Him 5.) When and What is the Wheat / Tare Threshing 6.) When does Russia become the guard for the Muslim Antichrist 7.) Who are the 144,000 and What is there mission. What are the two visions of people in Rev 7 & Rev 15. 8.) Does Israel bear the brunt of the 7 Trumpets 9.) How many days after the Abomination of Desolation does the 7th Trumpet sound 10.) How many days after the Abomination of Desolation does Jesus Return and Resurrect/Translate us. God Bless

These are things I already know Belly Rumble. The point I make is, put it in some kind of compostion format.

It's hard to read all bunched together like that.

mannysee · Jan 4, 2015

editing

101 · Jan 8, 2015

I see the safe house I created last year did not remain safe from premillennialist invasion.

They just can't contain themselves.

1michael1 · Jan 23, 2015

I listen to Christmas Carols till long after Candlemas, almost to Pascha. And no, I'm not Catholic, I'm just enjoy the liturgical year more than most. This has to do with Partial Preterism because it does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxDZjg_Igoc

JLB777 · Jan 23, 2015

Rev20 said:
I personally believe that John was one of those elect that Christ sent his angels to gather. As for the claims of Polycarp, and/or Irenaeus, I believe the "John" that Polycarp knew was an imposter. We were warned about false apostles:

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." -- 2Cor 11:13-15
One of the churches in Asia had already had to deal with some by the time John wrote the Revelation:

"I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:" -- Rev 2:2
In other words, when Paul wrote this,

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." -- 1Th 4:17
Paul was, knowingly or unknowingly, writing about John when he used the word "we." It also appears that Paul expected to still be alive at the first resurrection, at least when he wrote Thessalonians. He almost made it.

There is only 1 Resurrection of the dead in Christ, and it occurs at His Coming.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:22-23

All those who are His will be resurrected/raptured all at the same time, at His Coming.

He only comes once, at the end of the age.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Hebrews 9:29

He came once and walked this earth and was crucified for our sins.

He will come a second time... at the Resurrection/Rapture to Gather the dead in Christ, and those who are alive and remain.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture are one event that happens at the same time, at His coming.

JLB

jduck1986 · Feb 19, 2015

Hi I'm new to the idea of preterism. I'd like to learn more. I'm also interested in amillenialism and postmillenialism. Not sure which I'm camp I'm in yet. Could anyone recommend websites or books I should read?

Daniel Martinovich · Feb 19, 2015

jduck1986 said:
Hi I'm new to the idea of preterism. I'd like to learn more. I'm also interested in amillenialism and postmillenialism. Not sure which I'm camp I'm in yet. Could anyone recommend websites or books I should read?

How about a little of all three with some answers that none of the three have discovered yet. Here is a link I believe will answer most of your questions.
End Time Prophecy

thecolorsblend · May 17, 2015

I'm surprised that Preterism even has a thread unto itself. Generally Preterists don't go shouting their views from the rooftops... because there's really nothing to shout from the rooftops. In any case, this is the most insightful treatment of partial (ie, orthodox) preterism I've yet found: http://www.tektonics.org/eschhub.html

It's a listing of the various major subjects related to eschatology as interpreted through Preterism. All the major subjects; marks of beasts, AC's, abominations, the whole thing. Those mini-articles really expose how wanting the other forms of eschatological study are. Take pretrib/premill, for example. "The Antichrist is restrained and cannot come until the peace treaty is created. So the Antichrist creates the peace treaty which enables the Antichrist to come." Huh??

What makes preterism work for me is that it accounts for everything mentioned in Sacred Scripture and it does not necessarily rule out a dual-fulfillment of at least certain events. Best of all, orthodox Preterism does not invent anything out of thin air -- I'm looking right at you, "doctrine" of imminence.

Now if God really had wanted to communicate that this event was truly near, truly soon, truly at hand, truly to happen shortly, and truly to happen before all of them died, what other words could He have used to express it if "near, soon, at hand, shortly, quickly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death until, this generation will not pass away until," do not cut it? As DeMar so aptly stated, "If the Bible can be interpreted so 'soon' can mean 'late,' and 'near' can mean 'distant,' and 'shortly' can mean 'delayed,' and vice versa, then the Bible can meaning anything and nothing."

Check out the link. http://www.tektonics.org/eschhub.html You other Preterists don't have to agree with everything but, at a minimum, the articles offer an angle on those passages that make the most sense under a preterist model.

None of the above is to cast aspersions on the faith or motives of those who adhere to other points of view; I simply find those other points of view to be lacking to varying degrees.

muddleglum · May 17, 2015

thecolorsblend said:
In any case, this is the most insightful treatment of partial (ie, orthodox) preterism I've yet found: http://www.tektonics.org/eschhub.html

http://www.tektonics.org/eschhub.html
Thank you!
I'll look at it more deeply than just the titles when I have time. FYI, there is a book in gutenberg.org by F.G. Smith entitled, "The Revelation Explained" (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/13229) He is amill. Interestingly, however, I've read one (non-dispensational) premill that essentially follows the same course as Smith until near the end, when it peels off the 1000 yrs. reign for special treatment.

thecolorsblend said:
So the Antichrist creates the peace treaty which the Antichrist to come." Huh??

What is funnier is when certain types of dispensationalist premills crossed with Eternal Security believers discuss apostates. Seems that the apostates are gnashing their teeth through a bunch of the 1000 years that Christ is supposed to reign physically on earth. They they go to heaven. Yes. I read this! And, no, they didn't notice the incipient doctrine of purgatory.

JLB777 · May 17, 2015

Does at real Christian actually believe the Resurrection of the dead in Christ is past?

JLB

muddleglum · May 18, 2015

JLB777 said:
Does at real Christian actually believe the Resurrection of the dead in Christ is past?

After the Lord comes again and we are resurrected, then ask the very same question. The answer would be no. Why? :-D
Perhaps you should ask, "...trust what Paul said in 1Cor 15 about any resurrection of the dead." Notice that he warns real Christians who seemed to have already been influenced by this doctrine. Apparently he thought that a real Christian could, but with a simple, logical explanation the truth could be accepted.
Or, perhaps you should ask, "...believe that what Paul spoke of in 1 Thess 4:15-17 is already past." That will keep weaseling answers down to a minimum. In this thread, that is believed to be future. Read the initial post. Thank you.

Even better, start your question with, "Does a mature Christian..." Otherwise you will probably attempt to force a babe in Christ along faster than what is good. You would be teaching them that rote memory is what God means by "believe". There are stages in our Christian growth, don't forget.

JLB777 · May 18, 2015

muddleglum said:
After the Lord comes again and we are resurrected, then ask the very same question. The answer would be no. Why? :-D
Perhaps you should ask, "...trust what Paul said in 1Cor 15 about any resurrection of the dead." Notice that he warns real Christians who seemed to have already been influenced by this doctrine. Apparently he thought that a real Christian could, but with a simple, logical explanation the truth could be accepted.
Or, perhaps you should ask, "...believe that what Paul spoke of in 1 Thess 4:15-17 is already past." That will keep weaseling answers down to a minimum. In this thread, that is believed to be future. Read the initial post. Thank you.

Even better, start your question with, "Does a mature Christian..." Otherwise you will probably attempt to force a babe in Christ along faster than what is good. You would be teaching them that rote memory is what God means by "believe". There are stages in our Christian growth, don't forget.

See post #226

muddleglum · May 18, 2015

Late last year (long enough ago that I didn't check that far back) Rev20 wrote:

Rev20 said:
Paul was, knowingly or unknowingly, writing about John when he used the word "we." It also appears that Paul expected to still be alive at the first resurrection, at least when he wrote Thessalonians. He almost made it.

You brought up, I think in reply to that (please correct me if I'm wrong.)

JLB777 said:
There is only 1 Resurrection of the dead in Christ, and it occurs at His Coming.
The resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture are one event that happens at the same time, at His coming.

Then you, several months afterward (which made it seem out of thin air) said:

JLB777 said:
Does at real Christian actually believe the Resurrection of the dead in Christ is past?

Correct? I'm not sure that was what you had in mind.

I think my reply would even cover this. Our salvation is trusting in God's provision of the Lord Jesus Christ's crucifixion and resurrection.
After that should be growth. However:

2 Timothy 2:15-19 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

According to Paul, in the above passage, the idea that the resurrection is past can overthrow the faith of someone. If one believes that salvation is lost, then your question is pertinent, I think.

The two chaps that he named, however, point back to the problem "they will increase to more ungodliness. Paul also considered them Christians:

1 Timothy 1:18-20 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Compare with a similar situation in 1 Cor 5. So it seems that Hymenaeus was also assumed to be a Christian, earlier was delivered to Satan, but continued to pursue his own course, as evidenced later in the above passage from 2 Timothy. Again, your question is pertinent if one believes in the loss of salvation. OTOH, Alexander isn't named in the passage in 2 Timothy. Did he repent?

However, if you are asking about baby Christians, I would have to hedge. Thrusting meat on the poor guys can give them awful indigestion, but I think that with patience, they can get past it, just as Paul assumed in 1 Cor 15.

In other words, there is not a clear yes or no answer to the question. The answer might well hinge on the resulting fruit you see. I don't know exactly. Last I checked, I didn't think that God made me an apostle. (-:

JLB777 · May 18, 2015

muddleglum said:
Late last year (long enough ago that I didn't check that far back) Rev20 wrote:

You brought up, I think in reply to that (please correct me if I'm wrong.)

Then you, several months afterward (which made it seem out of thin air) said:

Correct? I'm not sure that was what you had in mind.

I think my reply would even cover this. Our salvation is trusting in God's provision of the Lord Jesus Christ's crucifixion and resurrection.
After that should be growth. However:

2 Timothy 2:15-19 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."
According to Paul, in the above passage, the idea that the resurrection is past can overthrow the faith of someone. If one believes that salvation is lost, then your question is pertinent, I think.

The two chaps that he named, however, point back to the problem "they will increase to more ungodliness. Paul also considered them Christians:

1 Timothy 1:18-20 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Compare with a similar situation in 1 Cor 5. So it seems that Hymenaeus was also assumed to be a Christian, earlier was delivered to Satan, but continued to pursue his own course, as evidenced later in the above passage from 2 Timothy. Again, your question is pertinent if one believes in the loss of salvation. OTOH, Alexander isn't named in the passage in 2 Timothy. Did he repent?

However, if you are asking about baby Christians, I would have to hedge. Thrusting meat on the poor guys can give them awful indigestion, but I think that with patience, they can get past it, just as Paul assumed in 1 Cor 15.

In other words, there is not a clear yes or no answer to the question. The answer might well hinge on the resulting fruit you see. I don't know exactly. Last I checked, I didn't think that God made me an apostle. (-:

Do you believe the Resurrection of the dead in Christ is past?

Yes or No?

JLB

muddleglum · May 18, 2015

JLB777 said:
Do you believe the Resurrection of the dead in Christ is past?
Yes or No?

Shouldn't you assume that I'm on this thread honestly? But to assure you:
No, not yet, but I won't vouch what would happen before that "no" gets to your eyes, if ever. <-:
But, then, I could be lying, couldn't I? :-D

muddleglum · May 18, 2015

JLB777 said:
Do you believe the Resurrection of the dead in Christ is past?

Actually, I'll hedge. Just what do you mean? The physical resurrection? Then no.
But if you mean the "being raised with Christ" then it is recurring and therefore it is in the past and on to the future until Christ returns. It recurs when any person trusts in Christ and abides in Him. Being IN Christ means that he is also raised with Him. That "raised" is a synonym for "resurrection" but conveys the same concept.

random person · May 18, 2015

Do any of you actually realize "New Heavens and New Earth" only appears in 4 bible verses?

Look it up, they are in Isa. 65:17; 66:22; 2 Pet. 3:13; & Rev. 21:1!

COUNT'EM FOUR!

And why does sin still exist in Rev. 21:27 & 22:15?

Why aren't all nations healed ALREADY in Rev. 22:2?

Why does child-births still occur in Isa. 65:20? (Aren't we to be like the angels, not given to marriage?)

Why do people still age in Isa. 65:20?

Why do people still die in Isa. 65:20?

Why are people actively still constructing, farming, and planting in Isa. 65:21? (Working by the sweat of their brows?)

random person · May 18, 2015

A repost!

The number 7 connotes a fullness of quality in Biblical imagery, the number 10 contains the idea of a fullness of quantity; in other words, it stands for manyness. A thousand multiplies and intensifies this (10x10x10), in order to express great vastness (c.f. 5:11; 7:4-8; 9:16; 11:3,13; 12:6; 14:1,3,20). Thus God claims to own "the cattle on a thousand hills" (Ps. 50:10). This of course does not mean that the cattle on the 1,001st hill belongs to someone else. God owns all the cattle on all the hills. But He says "a thousand" to indicate that there are many hills, and much cattle (c.f. Deut. 1:11; 7:9; Ps. 68:17; 84:10; 90:4). Similarly, the thousand years of Revelation 20 represent a vast, undefined period of time. It is a round number, but stands for an indefinite period, an eon whose duration it would be a folly to attempt to compute. Its beginning dates from the great catastrophe of this book, the fall of mystic Babylon (Jerusalem, A.D. 70).

- from Days of Vengeance, pgs. 506-507.

muddleglum · May 18, 2015

random person said:
A repost!

The number 7 connotes a fullness of quality in Biblical imagery, the number 10 contains the idea of a fullness of quantity; in other words, it stands for manyness. A thousand multiplies and intensifies this (10x10x10), in order to express great vastness (c.f. 5:11; 7:4-8; 9:16; 11:3,13; 12:6; 14:1,3,20). Thus God claims to own "the cattle on a thousand hills" (Ps. 50:10). This of course does not mean that the cattle on the 1,001st hill belongs to someone else. God owns all the cattle on all the hills. But He says "a thousand" to indicate that there are many hills, and much cattle (c.f. Deut. 1:11; 7:9; Ps. 68:17; 84:10; 90:4). Similarly, the thousand years of Revelation 20 represent a vast, undefined period of time. It is a round number, but stands for an indefinite period, an eon whose duration it would be a folly to attempt to compute. Its beginning dates from the great catastrophe of this book, the fall of mystic Babylon (Jerusalem, A.D. 70).

- from Days of Vengeance, pgs. 506-507.

144,000 also applies. JW's make a big deal out of that number and it's put to use in a sad way.

And 1/10th connotes "All". So a tithe is a picture in the O.T. that indicates everything in the N.T. IOW, 1/10th "contains the idea of a fullness of" the quantity one. Is your all given to Christ? See Rom 12:1 for more on this. (-:

BTW, there is one place (at least) in the O.T. that this doesn't hold for 10. The reason is that in that place the subject is divided into 7 and 3, which add up to 10. Therefore, it should be an actual 10. I think that is in Daniel.

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