The paranormal and Christianity

[ebia]

Does that instance suggest to you that after death anyone can manifest as a bodiless spirit floating about the world? It doesn't to me.

It doesn't suggest anything more to me than "be careful of simplistic answers claiming to be biblical".

There seems to be some debate among Bible scholars as to whether or not the witch of Endor actually called up Samuel himself

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Assuming one takes it to be a true story, I can't see any ambiguity in the text itself, which seems to be quite deliberately clear on the point.

There are reasons both for and against such a notion that can be made from the passage in 1 Samuel 28. In any case, you have used the right word - "except" - in referencing the witch of Endor's calling up of Samuel. Taking the rest of what Scripture has to say about what happens to a person upon their physical death, Samuel's "appearance" to Saul (if it was real) was an exception to the rule.

It's true that it's a unique text in the bible, but the text does imply that this is a quite normal practice - just one avoided by God's people. Not that this is an utterly unique event, just an event that doesn't occur very often in the biblical narrative.

If we want to take the broad sweep of the bible only into account what you say is fine, but if one wants to deal with the detail this one instance can't just be swept away.

Peace to you.

Likewise.

 

[aiki]

Assuming one takes it to be a true story, I can't see any ambiguity in the text itself, which seems to be quite deliberately clear on the point.

"The story has led to much discussion whether there was a real appearance of Samuel or not. On the one hand, the woman's profession, which was forbidden by the divine law, the refusal of God to answer Saul by any divinely constituted means, the well-known age, figure, and dress of Samuel, which she could easily represent herself, or by an accomplice -- his apparition being evidently at some distance, being muffled, and not actually seen by Saul, whose attitude of prostrate homage, moreover, must have prevented him distinguishing the person though he had been near, and the voice seemingly issuing out of the ground, and coming along to Saul -- and the vagueness of the information, imparted much which might have been reached by natural conjecture as to the probable result of the approaching conflict -- the woman's representation -- all of this has led many to think that this was a mere deception. On the other hand, many eminent writers (considering that the apparition came before her arts were put in practice; that she herself was surprised and alarmed; that the prediction of Saul's own death and the defeat of his forces was confidently made), are of opinion that Samuel really appeared."

Jamieson, Fawcett and Brown Bible Commentary.

It's true that it's a unique text in the bible, but the text does imply that this is a quite normal practice - just one avoided by God's people. Not that this is an utterly unique event, just an event that doesn't occur very often in the biblical narrative.

Actually, the witch's concern for her well-being reminds the reader that, in Israel at least, necromancy was forbidden and punishable by death. As a result, among the Israelites such practices were not normal. In any event, even if necromancy were a common practice elsewhere, it is by no means thereby certain that necromancers were anything more than charlatans. What the Bible tells us about what comes after physical death suggests that people cannot roam about the earth as ghosts or make an earthly appearance at the command of a necromancer. Consequently, it seems to me that necromancers cannot actually call up the dead and thus, when they appear to do so, are either presenting a clever illusion or are aided by the demonic.

Peace to you.

 

[ebia]

"The story has led to much discussion whether there was a real appearance of Samuel or not. On the one hand, the woman's profession, which was forbidden by the divine law, the refusal of God to answer Saul by any divinely constituted means, the well-known age, figure, and dress of Samuel, which she could easily represent herself, or by an accomplice -- his apparition being evidently at some distance, being muffled, and not actually seen by Saul, whose attitude of prostrate homage, moreover, must have prevented him distinguishing the person though he had been near, and the voice seemingly issuing out of the ground, and coming along to Saul -- and the vagueness of the information, imparted much which might have been reached by natural conjecture as to the probable result of the approaching conflict -- the woman's representation -- all of this has led many to think that this was a mere deception. On the other hand, many eminent writers (considering that the apparition came before her arts were put in practice; that she herself was surprised and alarmed; that the prediction of Saul's own death and the defeat of his forces was confidently made), are of opinion that Samuel really appeared."

Jamieson, Fawcett and Brown Bible Commentary.

As I say, the text seems pretty unambiguous to me. I suspect any 'discussion' is really stimulated by prior assumptions brought to it.

Actually, the witch's concern for her well-being reminds the reader that, in Israel at least, necromancy was forbidden and punishable by death. As a result, among the Israelites such practices were not normal.

It was forbidden, yes. Whether or not it went on anyway is another question. But either way it's quite clear that the practice went on in other places quite regularly.

In any event, even if necromancy were a common practice elsewhere, it is by no means thereby certain that necromancers were anything more than charlatans.

Except that this one worked on this occasion (according to the text), and nothing in the text indicates that to be exceptional.

What the Bible tells us about what comes after physical death suggests that people cannot roam about the earth as ghosts or make an earthly appearance at the command of a necromancer. Consequently, it seems to me that necromancers cannot actually call up the dead and thus, when they appear to do so, are either presenting a clever illusion or are aided by the demonic.

Which of course amounts to bringing prior assumptions to this text and not letting this text speak for itself.

 

[aiki]

Which of course amounts to bringing prior assumptions to this text and not letting this text speak for itself.

One understands Scripture both by immediate context and the larger context of the entire Bible. That larger context seems to preclude (or at least make very unlikely) an actual calling of Samuel's spirit from beyond the grave. Those things that would seem to preclude such an event are not "assumptions," however, but a framework within which to understand what is recounted in 1 Samuel 28.

 

[ebia]

One understands Scripture both by immediate context and the larger context of the entire Bible. That larger context seems to preclude (or at least make very unlikely) an actual calling of Samuel's spirit from beyond the grave. Those things that would seem to preclude such an event are not "assumptions," however, but a framework within which to understand what is recounted in 1 Samuel 28.

That's true to a point, but overdone we preclude the possibility of a text properly challenging our preconceptions.

It still strikes me that the text of 1 Samuel is so unambiguous when one reads it without bringing the preconceptions to it that claiming "oh, it wasn't really Samuel" is nothing but a cop-out.

I should "own up" that I don't really believe that Samuel was conjoured up, but I do think that's what the text clearly says happened.

 

[DarkProphet]

You know this discussion would be nice in a apologetics forum, especially one that allowed non-Christians to have a say. But I'm afraid the mods do not take kindly to discussion.

 

[heron]

I heard a Christian spiel about how ghosts are related to demons and how Ouija boards are satanic. He went on to say that UFOs are connected to demons as well and something about demons manifesting as creatures, like the chupacabra or bigfoot. Do all Christians believe in the paranormal in this way?

According to religioustolernce.org, there are 30,000 branches of Christianity in the world. So do all Christians think the same way... I'm sure you know the answer.

The ones who are fascinated by the unusual are often individuals who love the research. Then they get very excited about the connections they find, and want to talk about it.

Scriptures talk boldly about demons and angels. That is not Christians making things up -- it is part of the doctrine.

Ironically, if you look at the other world religions, you will find similar creatures. Jinn, demons, demigods, spirits, muló, Rada and Petro... every culture has a term in their language for supernatural beings.

While people may scoff at this as primitive, superstitious and anti-intellectual, could it be that those above it all, are ignoring the research done by millions of people through history? What is documented research anyway? First hand accounts.

As for bigfoot and demons, gee, I wouldn't put the two together. Why would a demon waste their time living in an animal that refuses contact with other beings?

I have heard a few Christians tie UFOs in with demons, but it's more of a theory they want to explore, not an official teaching.

Another mention of ghosts in the Bible -- before Peter walked on the water, the disciples thought Jesus was a ghost.
Mt 14:26
Mr 6:49

But immediately He spoke with them and said to them, "Take http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mr+6&t=nas&st=1&new=1&l=en#R217 courage; it is I, do not be afraid."

Apparently it was an accepted part of the culture, and a negative that people feared. Jesus did not reprimand them for believing ghosts might exist.