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CaliforniaJosiah

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He is telling Peter to feed his sheep, to care for His flock: giving Peter supremacy to "feed" the Church.


The first two statements are true, the gigantic, olympian leap of the third is entirely baseless.



Also, for those who believe the papacy cam along much later, I present these facts:

- Peter presided over the first Council at Jerusalem


Actually, James (likely the brother of Jesus and not even an Apostle) did.

Peter was just one speaker, and not the one that caused all to be still and quiet and listen to every word.




- The letter of Clement(Pope 92-101) to the Church in Corinth, settling a dispute there. This proves the Pope was regarded as having supremacy over the whole Church.

You'll need to quote the letter where it specifically says that the Bishop in Rome is infallible and is the ONE to "settle all disputes." You'll also need to show where it says that whoever is a bishop in Rome is "supreme" and "infallible." And, of course, this is a rejected, noncanonical, nonauthoritative book.




I'm interested to hear the arguments against the papacy.

Friend, you have it reversed. Since there is one denomination on the planet that embraces the dogma of the Infalliblity of the Bishop of Rome, one denomination that says it is absolutely essential for salvation that every human creature must be subject to the Pope, the "burden of proof" lies with that denomination to substantiate these things. It is NOT the function of others to argue against it, it is the RCC's requirement to substantiate it. One could say that Jesus was 15 feet tall and had 100 children, such is not dogma simply because such cannot be proven to be wrong, it is dogma if it can be substantiation as true. You have things reversed.




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah






.
 
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simonthezealot

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A lot here believe it is an imagined office.
Yes in fact developed in the imagination of Bishop Leo the great.
The proof that Christ constituted St. Peter head of His Church is found in Matthew 16:17-19, and John 21:15-17.
And your suggesting Christ church and your church are one in the same???

- The letter of Clement(Pope 92-101) to the Church in Corinth, settling a dispute there. This proves the Pope was regarded as having supremacy over the whole Church.
That proves nothing as Thekla pointed out Corith was a patriarcate of Rome. There are many letters of authority and advice from many churches yet you only choose to highlight this one because you think it helps your case but the reality is if you have ever even read Clements epistle is that it is proof positive of leadership by a pluraliy of elders and not a monarchal one.
Have you ever read where Corinths bishop Dionysius in speaking to romes bishop Soter writes in regards to Clements epistle...
"Which we will read for its valuable advice"
Dionysius was Bishop in Corinth writing to the Bishop in Rome 70 years or so after Clements letter. So what you would want me to believe is that Dionysius does not know how Corinth viewed it.

T, let's see if you can put your money where your mouth is...
find 1 early church father in the first 500 years of Christianity that acknowledged ALL the following;
Peter was the rock, this set him apart from the other apostles, Peter alone holds the keys separate from binding and loosing, Peter was the bishop of Rome, the only bishop all this is relevant to is the bishop of Rome, and that this established bishop was the universal head of the church.
 
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simonthezealot

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Of course not, but the office of Pope is backed by scriptural and historical references.
Historical? right! while Rome claims its authority has been known for all ages, it is clear from the early christian community that while Rome was respected it surely was NOT given any kind universal authority and nothing in the first couple hundred years after our Lords ascension that was written gives any other indication than that of respect, mainly because it adhered closely at that time to the teaching of the apostles
meaning Paul and Peter.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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So do you believe Rome should be respected as you claim the christians of the early church respected her?
 
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Tu Es Petrus

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From The Catechism Of The Catholic Church:

(BEGIN QUOTE)
IV. THE CHURCH IS APOSTOLIC

857 The Church is apostolic because she is founded on the apostles, in three ways:

- she was and remains built on "the foundation of the Apostles,"362 the witnesses chosen and sent on mission by Christ himself;363

- with the help of the Spirit dwelling in her, the Church keeps and hands on the teaching,364 the "good deposit," the salutary words she has heard from the apostles;365

- she continues to be taught, sanctified, and guided by the apostles until Christ's return, through their successors in pastoral office: the college of bishops, "assisted by priests, in union with the successor of Peter, the Church's supreme pastor":366

You are the eternal Shepherd
who never leaves his flock untended.
Through the apostles
you watch over us and protect us always.
You made them shepherds of the flock
to share in the work of your Son. . . .367

The Apostles' mission

858 Jesus is the Father's Emissary. From the beginning of his ministry, he "called to him those whom he desired; . . . . And he appointed twelve, whom also he named apostles, to be with him, and to be sent out to preach."368 From then on, they would also be his "emissaries" (Greek apostoloi). In them, Christ continues his own mission: "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."369 The apostles' ministry is the continuation of his mission; Jesus said to the Twelve: "he who receives you receives me."370

859 Jesus unites them to the mission he received from the Father. As "the Son can do nothing of his own accord," but receives everything from the Father who sent him, so those whom Jesus sends can do nothing apart from him,371 from whom they received both the mandate for their mission and the power to carry it out. Christ's apostles knew that they were called by God as "ministers of a new covenant," "servants of God," "ambassadors for Christ," "servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God."372

860 In the office of the apostles there is one aspect that cannot be transmitted: to be the chosen witnesses of the Lord's Resurrection and so the foundation stones of the Church. But their office also has a permanent aspect. Christ promised to remain with them always. The divine mission entrusted by Jesus to them "will continue to the end of time, since the Gospel they handed on is the lasting source of all life for the Church. Therefore, . . . the apostles took care to appoint successors."373

The bishops - successors of the apostles

861 "In order that the mission entrusted to them might be continued after their death, [the apostles] consigned, by will and testament, as it were, to their immediate collaborators the duty of completing and consolidating the work they had begun, urging them to tend to the whole flock, in which the Holy Spirit had appointed them to shepherd the Church of God. They accordingly designated such men and then made the ruling that likewise on their death other proven men should take over their ministry."374

862 "Just as the office which the Lord confided to Peter alone, as first of the apostles, destined to be transmitted to his successors, is a permanent one, so also endures the office, which the apostles received, of shepherding the Church, a charge destined to be exercised without interruption by the sacred order of bishops."375 Hence the Church teaches that "the bishops have by divine institution taken the place of the apostles as pastors of the Church, in such wise that whoever listens to them is listening to Christ and whoever despises them despises Christ and him who sent Christ."376

The apostolate

863 The whole Church is apostolic, in that she remains, through the successors of St. Peter and the other apostles, in communion of faith and life with her origin: and in that she is "sent out" into the whole world. All members of the Church share in this mission, though in various ways. "The Christian vocation is, of its nature, a vocation to the apostolate as well." Indeed, we call an apostolate "every activity of the Mystical Body" that aims "to spread the Kingdom of Christ over all the earth."377

864 "Christ, sent by the Father, is the source of the Church's whole apostolate"; thus the fruitfulness of apostolate for ordained ministers as well as for lay people clearly depends on their vital union with Christ.378 In keeping with their vocations, the demands of the times and the various gifts of the Holy Spirit, the apostolate assumes the most varied forms. But charity, drawn from the Eucharist above all, is always "as it were, the soul of the whole apostolate."379

865 The Church is ultimately one, holy, catholic, and apostolic in her deepest and ultimate identity, because it is in her that "the Kingdom of heaven," the "Reign of God,"380 already exists and will be fulfilled at the end of time. The kingdom has come in the person of Christ and grows mysteriously in the hearts of those incorporated into him, until its full eschatological manifestation. Then all those he has redeemed and made "holy and blameless before him in love,"381 will be gathered together as the one People of God, the "Bride of the Lamb,"382 "the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God."383 For "the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."384


references:
362 Eph 2:20; Rev 21:14.
363 Cf. Mt 28:16-20; Acts 1:8; 1 Cor 9:1; 15:7-8; Gal 1:1; etc.
364 Cf. Acts 2:42.
365 Cf. 2 Tim 1:13-14.
366 AG 5.
367 Roman Missal, Preface of the Apostles I.
368 Mk 3:13-14.
369 Jn 20:21; cf. 13:20; 17:18.
370 Mt 10:40; cf. Lk 10:16.
371 Jn 5:19, 30; cf. Jn 15:5.
372 2 Cor 3:6; 6:4; 5:20; 1 Cor 4:1.
373 LG 20; cf. Mt 28:20.
374 LG 20; cf. Acts 20:28; St. Clement of Rome, Ad Cor. 42,44 : PG 1,291-300.
375 LG 20 § 2.
376 LG 20 § 2.
377 AA 2.
378 AA 4; cf. Jn 15:5.
379 AA 3.
380 Rev 19:6.
381 Eph 1:4.
382 Rev 21:9.
383 Rev 21:10-11.
384 Rev 21:14.
 
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simonthezealot

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We have God inspiring and "backing them up," so to speak.

Us friend, US.
We have God inspiring US!

Bible says acknowledge HIM in all your ways,
and HE will direct your paths.

EXACTLY

1 John 3:24 (New International Version)
24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Galatians 4:6 (New International Version)
6Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba,[a] Father."
1 Corinthians 3:16-17 (New International Version)
16Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? 17If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
Romans 8:9 (New International Version)
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:16 (New International Version)
16Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?
2 Timothy 1:14 (New International Version)
14Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.
 
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simonthezealot

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So do you believe Rome should be respected as you claim the christians of the early church respected her?
NO because as of the mid 4th century she started varying WAY off from scripture and has continued down that road for 1600 years, as i mentioned she was respected for her close following to the teachings of the apostles (plural) through ireneaus' time.
 
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Tu Es Petrus

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The catechism is not scripture. Do you have any proof from the scriptures.

1) The Catechism is the interpretation of Christ's teachings. Your posts have your interpretation, my posts have the correct intepretation.

2) Scripture quotes are referenced at the end of the post.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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The catechism is not scripture. Do you have any proof from the scriptures.


The Catechism uses scripture as proof. It is there already for anyone with eyes to see.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Just in case you still cannot see it:

references:
362 Eph 2:20; Rev 21:14.
363 Cf. Mt 28:16-20; Acts 1:8; 1 Cor 9:1; 15:7-8; Gal 1:1; etc.
364 Cf. Acts 2:42.
365 Cf. 2 Tim 1:13-14.
366 AG 5.
367 Roman Missal, Preface of the Apostles I.
368 Mk 3:13-14.
369 Jn 20:21; cf. 13:20; 17:18.
370 Mt 10:40; cf. Lk 10:16.
371 Jn 5:19, 30; cf. Jn 15:5.
372 2 Cor 3:6; 6:4; 5:20; 1 Cor 4:1.
373 LG 20; cf. Mt 28:20.
374 LG 20; cf. Acts 20:28; St. Clement of Rome, Ad Cor. 42,44 : PG 1,291-300.
375 LG 20 § 2.
376 LG 20 § 2.
377 AA 2.
378 AA 4; cf. Jn 15:5.
379 AA 3.
380 Rev 19:6.
381 Eph 1:4.
382 Rev 21:9.
383 Rev 21:10-11.
384 Rev 21:14.
 
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Tu Es Petrus

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Us friend, US.
We have God inspiring US!

Then why are you split up into multiple denominations, and why are you all arguing amongst yourselves as to the meaning of various scriptures? You call that "Inspiration"? The empirical evidence proves that this is not how the Holy Spirit works, for if it were, you would all be illuminated equally and be of one mind.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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So there are not Catholics that disagree on their own teachings?

I find that hard to believe...especially considering there was a liberal Catholics forum recently created here on CF.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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So there are not Catholics that disagree on their own teachings?

I find that hard to believe...especially considering there was a liberal Catholics forum recently created here on CF.


Catholics are required to believe doctrines and dogmas. They are not allowed to openly contest them. However they are encouraged to come to an understanding.

For those that follow SS this will seem too controlling. And I understand because I was there at a time. But it make perfect sense when realization strikes. This realization can come from God alone from my experience.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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SS = Sola Scriptura, I assume?

I would suppose that a Catholic could not openly contest doctrines or dogmas. What I would be wondering is why would someone who doesn't agree with the doctrine and dogma of the Catholic want to be Catholic in the first place?

I mean, I'm Lutheran because I believe in the doctrine of the Lutheran Church, and that it's the most biblical denomination - if I didn't believe that I wouldn't be a member.

So what's the difference between a Catholic who disagrees with doctrine but stays a Catholic anyway, and a Lutheran who disagrees with the doctrine so leaves the Lutheran church? Theoretically, they both have rejected the doctrine of the their church.
 
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simonthezealot

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JacktheCatholic

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I have asked the same question as well.

I know there is more facet to this question and the sides are many.

I know for myself when I became Catholic I was ignorant to many things about Catholcism. I openly did not approve of things and found that SS (Sola Scriptura or bible alone) study groups supported my defiances. I was one of ignorance and when I finally learned I had to make a decision and it was to be Catholic.

Others are born Catholic and grow up with what their parents gave them which is at times very little. They go through life calling themselves Catholic without ever really knowing or caring what it means to be Catholic. This is found in all groups from my experience and these people are the misinformation people because they provide answers to people as to what it means to be whatever their faith is.

I have also witnessed Catholcis that are very educated and know the Catholic teahcings and even teach Catechism who are defiant in full knowledge. Sometimes these Catholics are called "Cafeteria Catholics" because they pick and choose what they want and digest only that and reject the rest. Kind of like picking and choosing at a buffet style restaurant. In some cases these Catholics excommunicate themselves informally, the church does not do it. In rare cases the Catholic Chruch may excommunicate someone formally, such as a politician that openly supports abortion. The Catholic Church has written as much and the present Pope has spoken on it.

But there are more cases and many are varied.

The bottom line is that to be Catholic means accepting all doctrines and dogmas that come with the title.
 
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simonthezealot

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Tu, there has been differing views and splits from even the earliest of times, an example is this if there was only one church why did certain parts of this "Church" have a different canon? If the "Church" had authority and Sacred Tradition on its side, why all the problems?


This wiki article demonstrates clearly the point...

"[Diatessaron: c. 173, a one-volume harmony of the four Gospels, translated and compiled by Tatian the Assyrian into Syriac. In Syriac speaking churches, it effectively served as the only New Testament scripture until Paul's Letters were added during the 3rd century. Some believe that Acts was also used in Syrian churches alongside the Diatessaron , however, Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History 4.29.5 states Tatian rejected Paul's Letters and Acts. In the 4th century, the Doctrine of Addai lists a 17 book NT canon using the Diatessaron and Acts and 15 Pauline Epistles (including 3rd Corinthians). The Diatessaron was eventually replaced in the 5th century by the Peshitta, which contains a translation of all the books of the 27-book NT except for 2 John, 3 John, 2 Peter, Jude and Revelation and is the Bible of the Syriac Orthodox Church where some members believe it is the original New Testament, see Aramaic primacy.

Orthodox Synod in Trullo: in 692, rejected by Pope Constantine, approved Gregory Theologus' 22 book OT and 26-book NT (excludes Revelation) and the Canons of the Apostles of the Apostolic Constitutions of which Canon #85 [18] is a list of the 27-book OT plus Judith, Sirach, 1-3Maccabees, Didache, 1-2Clement, and 26-book NT (excludes Revelation), and the Apostolic Constitutions which themselves were rejected because they were said to contain heretical interpolations.

Nicephorus: the Patriarch of Jerusalem, 806-815, in a Stichometria [19] appended to the end of his Chronography rejected Esther, Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, Maccabees, Psalms of Solomon, Enoch, Didache, Barnabas, Hermas, Clement, Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of the Hebrews, 3rd Corinthians, Acts of Paul, Revelation, Apocalypse of Peter."

Wikipedia article on the Canon
 
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simonthezealot

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The same can be asked of yourself.
Yep, the very same...So now lets think about what Paul wrote afterall
when it comes to interpretting scripture how could I or you or anyone else today know to whom to look for the correct interpretation of the Bible?
If you are suggesting that no one can know, then God has given us a worthless book.
Paul writes, "If any man think himself to be a prophet or spiritual,let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" (1 Cor 14:37).The Eunuch had NO idea Phillip was an apostle, so don't bother going there.
 
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