The Palestinian-Jewish issue in a nutsell

[Armoured]

Obviously you have no idea what proportionality is about, because it i most definitely not just simple numbers, because no war is ever like that. Did you know that with the NATO operations in the former Yugoslaviua, that they killed about 5,000 civilians and they investigated the whole thing and found that none of the deaths warranted any further look to see if they are a war crime, that does include the bombing a TV station and the accidental bombing of the Chinese Embassy. Just simply killing civilians isn't a war crime, but the intentional targeting of them. In an urban environment there will always be civilian casualties no matter how precise your are due to the density of the population.

So why don't you explain to me what proportionality is about, since you're obviously such an expert in LOAC?

 

[brewmama]

So why don't you explain to me what proportionality is about, since you're obviously such an expert in LOAC?

Articles: Slouching Toward Palestine

Articles: 'Proportionality' in Israel and Gaza?

Blog: (Dis) Proportionality

 

[Armoured]

Articles: Slouching Toward Palestine

Articles: 'Proportionality' in Israel and Gaza?

Blog: (Dis) Proportionality

How about in your own words, rather than a handful of random articles?

 

[brewmama]

How about in your own words, rather than a handful of random articles?

I've already done it, and I found the articles useful in illustration.

 

[Armoured]

I've already done it, and I found the articles useful in illustration.

You did?

I saw you quote the principle of proportionality, and then say I should look at what it actually means. I must have missed your explaination as you think is relevant to the Palestinian situation.

 

[Phil G]

In a nutshell, the international law regarding "Palestine" is that it belongs to the Jews in its entirety (including most of the land that is now Jordan) for their homeland. This was passed in a resolution at the San Remo Conference in 1920.

The same conference divided up the portion of the Middle East previously controlled by the Ottoman Empire before World War 1. So the legal entitlement of the Arabs to Syria, Lebanon and Iraq stems from the same origin.

Britain illegally divided Mandate Palestine and created a new entity east of the river Jordan for yet another Arab state. Then it tried to divide up yet more of Palestine into two states, one for Jews, the other for Arabs. None of those actions were legal under the League of Nations Mandate.

The San Remo Resolution never intended or mentioned dividing Palestine between Jews and Arabs. It was explicitly for a Jewish homeland with the goal of achieving statehood as with the other mandated lands (of which Arabs got all).

The current conflict, along with all other conflicts against Jews settling in Palestine and attempts to divide the land into two states are illegal because of the San Remo Conference. The decisions made and passed at that time still stand today. Otherwise Syria, Iraq and Lebanon have no legal basis for existence either.

 

[classicalhero]

Proportionality doesn't refer to the number of victims, but to the threat. The threat posed by Hamas is more than sufficient in relation to the casualties.

So why don't you explain to me what proportionality is about, since you're obviously such an expert in LOAC?

I have already eplained it to you, but you seem to think that it is only about the end result, not about the intent. It doesn't matter how bad Hamas are at using these weapons, each one has the potential to kill civilians and Israel has the right to destroy any capability that Hamas has. The threat also does include the fact that with every siren warning Israelis often have only 15 seconds to find a bomb shelter should a rocket get through and they do, because there is not 100% defensive system around, because the Iron Dome is the world's best anti-missile defence system there is and rockets do cause dmage when they get through.

Show me one war where the number of victims is "proportional"?

 

[AMDG]

Seems to also forget that Hamas, itself is using it's people to protect itself from any retaliation. Hama's not only hides and fires its rockets from densely populated areas or hospitals or schools, but it also forbids its people from seeking cover when Israel warns them of retaliation. Then Hamas cries those crocodile tears to the world press (as it assures the families that are hurt in the attack that they have sacrificed for Allah.)

Hamas isn't fooling everyone though. Surrounding Muslims countries have realized how bad Hamas is. The people would be better off without them.

 

[Armoured]

I have already eplained it to you, but you seem to think that it is only about the end result, not about the intent. It doesn't matter how bad Hamas are at using these weapons, each one has the potential to kill civilians and Israel has the right to destroy any capability that Hamas has. The threat also does include the fact that with every siren warning Israelis often have only 15 seconds to find a bomb shelter should a rocket get through and they do, because there is not 100% defensive system around, because the Iron Dome is the world's best anti-missile defence system there is and rockets do cause dmage when they get through.

Show me one war where the number of victims is "proportional"?

People like you are why I let my Liberal Party membership lapse.

 

[classicalhero]

You have no counter to my arguments, just ad hominems instead.

Hamas could have protectd the civilians of Gaza, but chose not too, because it delights on getting civilians dead.

 

[MikeK]

I have already eplained it to you, but you seem to think that it is only about the end result, not about the intent. It doesn't matter how bad Hamas are at using these weapons, each one has the potential to kill civilians and Israel has the right to destroy any capability that Hamas has. The threat also does include the fact that with every siren warning Israelis often have only 15 seconds to find a bomb shelter should a rocket get through and they do, because there is not 100% defensive system around, because the Iron Dome is the world's best anti-missile defence system there is and rockets do cause dmage when they get through.

Show me one war where the number of victims is "proportional"?

Your logic is faulty. If you can establish that no wars have proportionate responses by all belligerents, that does nothing to change the requirement for a proportionate response. That it is very rare for a young man to entirely abstain from masturbation is not evidence that The Lord down not call masturbation a grave evil nor does it excuse young men who engage in the practice.

Israel's response must be proportionate to the threat they are under. If a blind man is walking around town throwing punches that in theory could hurt someone but in practice are not, the level of violence in response is far different than the level of response that would be appropriate if Lennox Lewis were walking through town throwing punches at ransoms people with ill intent. Humans have no right to kill other humans who do not need to die, and warning a person that you are going to bomb their village before you do so does not remove your culpability for killing innocent people. Lennox Lewis cannot say "tomorrow I'm going to knock out everyone that walks into Hardee's" and then follow through on it, even if someone who was once at that Hardee's punched his sister.

 

[Zeek]

Your logic is faulty. If you can establish that no wars have proportionate responses by all belligerents, that does nothing to change the requirement for a proportionate response. That it is very rare for a young man to entirely abstain from masturbation is not evidence that The Lord down not call masturbation a grave evil nor does it excuse young men who engage in the practice.

Israel's response must be proportionate to the threat they are under. If a blind man is walking around town throwing punches that in theory could hurt someone but in practice are not, the level of violence in response is far different than the level of response that would be appropriate if Lennox Lewis were walking through town throwing punches at ransoms people with ill intent. Humans have no right to kill other humans who do not need to die, and warning a person that you are going to bomb their village before you do so does not remove your culpability for killing innocent people. Lennox Lewis cannot say "tomorrow I'm going to knock out everyone that walks into Hardee's" and then follow through on it, even if someone who was once at that Hardee's punched his sister.

I think even if Israel went and knocked on the doors of houses in Gaza and the IDF personally escorted all civilians to safe areas, people would still find an argument to condemn them. Compared to any similar type of modern conflict Israel's response cannot be considered disproportionate and the anger people feel about the Arab civilians who are being killed, should be directed at Hamas whose ideology is the direct cause of their present predicament.

Better still leave Israel alone and go and pick a bone with the Sudanese Moslems, or the IS Moslems who slaughter tens of thousands of people believing they are doing the will of G-d.

 

[seekingfreedom]

Better still leave Israel alone and go and pick a bone with the Sudanese Moslems, or the IS Moslems who slaughter tens of thousands of people believing they are doing the will of G-d.

And this is the problem. You said in another post that Israel prays in the Knesset and reads the bible....and has to make hard choices. Are you saying that God sanctions what Israel does because they pray, because they interpret the bible to mean they are entitled to the land?

This is the problem, to me, in a nutshell. I don't know God's mind, but it's my opinion that every person who dies, in the name of God or a religion, is an abomination. This is my gripe with everything going on in the ME. Once we take religion, God, the Bible and the Koran out of the equation, we will be able to see who is really pulling the strings.

 

[Armoured]

I think even if Israel went and knocked on the doors of houses in Gaza and the IDF personally escorted all civilians to safe areas, people would still find an argument to condemn them. Compared to any similar type of modern conflict Israel's response cannot be considered disproportionate and the anger people feel about the Arab civilians who are being killed, should be directed at Hamas whose ideology is the direct cause of their present predicament.

Better still leave Israel alone and go and pick a bone with the Sudanese Moslems, or the IS Moslems who slaughter tens of thousands of people believing they are doing the will of G-d.

Know what a tu quoque is?

 

[Zeek]

Originally Posted by Zeek

Better still leave Israel alone and go and pick a bone with the Sudanese Moslems, or the IS Moslems who slaughter tens of thousands of people believing they are doing the will of G-d.
​

And this is the problem. You said in another post that Israel prays in the Knesset and reads the bible....and has to make hard choices. Are you saying that God sanctions what Israel does because they pray, because they interpret the bible to mean they are entitled to the land?

I don't think I have ever said or directly suggested that G-d sanctions what Israel does because some of the leaders in the Knesset pray, have bible studies or follow the teachings of modern Judaism...I believe whatever actions they undertake are judged on their individual merit, but I believe many try to make righteous decisions.

Most Israelis, even if they believe the Bible, do not rest their case for land entitlement solely of ancient texts, there are enough other reasons to establish a solid claim.

This is the problem, to me, in a nutshell. I don't know God's mind, but it's my opinion that every person who dies, in the name of God or a religion, is an abomination. This is my gripe with everything going on in the ME. Once we take religion, God, the Bible and the Koran out of the equation, we will be able to see who is really pulling the strings.

I have found that G-d shares His heart with us through the pages of the Bible, and amongst the Scriptures one thing that is abundantly evident is His everlasting love and faithfulness to the Jewish people/Israel.

 

[seekingfreedom]

Originally Posted by Zeek

Better still leave Israel alone and go and pick a bone with the Sudanese Moslems, or the IS Moslems who slaughter tens of thousands of people believing they are doing the will of G-d.
​

I don't think I have ever said or directly suggested that G-d sanctions what Israel does because some of the leaders in the Knesset pray, have bible studies or follow the teachings of modern Judaism...I believe whatever actions they undertake are judged on their individual merit, but I believe many try to make righteous decisions.

Most Israelis, even if they believe the Bible, do not rest their case for land entitlement solely of ancient texts, there are enough other reasons to establish a solid claim.



I have found that G-d shares His heart with us through the pages of the Bible, and amongst the Scriptures one thing that is abundantly evident is His everlasting love and faithfulness to the Jewish people/Israel.

Thanks for your reply. As you said, most Israelis don't rest their case 'solely' on ancient texts. It is my understanding that when you say that Israelis don't 'solely' base their claim to land entitlement on ancient texts, you are saying it is, in fact, one of the reasons, but there are also other reasons. What is the most important reason of all?

I agree, God does share his heart through the pages of the bible. As I stated before, I believe that Jesus is about the heart. He has shown us in His word that we are to pray for our enemies. Now we all know that we are imperfect people and that is not going to happen in this fallen world, particularly when we are talking about State leaders. But it is the ideal. My problem is with those Christians and Jews who believe that they are fighting in the name of God, Israel, and, as you say, the ancient texts. It is no different than extremist muslims that kill in the name of God.

I also don't believe that God, is in the business of establishing a physical place through wars and killing. However, the New Jersualem will come down from God "out of Heaven". He will come for all people and Jews will recognize Him as the Messiah they have been waiting for. In fact, there are Orthodox Jews who also do not believe in a materialistic salvation and their interpretation of the Torah is not the same.

Lastly, pretty much everyone thinks they are right and that their decisions are "righteous" and that they are fighting for a just cause. Doesn't make it right, though.

I will never believe that this is God's way. Our religions are being played and we are the pawns of the powerful and greedy leaders and the evil one that controls them.

 

[AMDG]

I agree with the professor from Prager University: this has NOTHING at all to do with land. It's about one side (Hamas) wanting the other side (the Jews of Israel) dead. And it's about Hamas doing horrible things just to Kill the Jews in spirit and their reputation with the world as well. It's about Hamas using women and children as human shields as they attack Israelis and fire rockets at Israel from densely populated areas (after forbidding the people to listen to Jewish warnings about leaving the area and seeking shelter when there is going to be retaliation. This is about Hamas crying "crocodile tears" for the cameras when there is retaliation--even though the Israeli's warn of the retaliation.

I suppose you all know that Hamas has stolen from the people to make those "terror tunnels". The concrete that was used in the tunnels was supposed to make about nine UN schools and several UN hospitals. Instead it was used in the making of those tunnels--20? 30? more? UNDER the border fence below Israeli kindergartens and then around Sept 24th there would be a massive attack that was intended to traumatize the Israelis.

And for the life of me I cannot understand the thinking that it is okay to target civilians, the airport, nuclear reactors, and/or the capitol city of Jerusalem because the iron dome will be able to shoot down most of the rockets. The iron dome doesn't always able to get all of the rockets, and knowing that, the Israeli's have minutes, day or night, to run into a shelter each time a siren goes off warning the people of a rocket attack. If the people in my country were having to go through that day after day and night after night, I would hope that my government would attempt to put a stop to it.

If Hamas truly wanted peace, it would simply stop firing the rockets at Israel (Israel has been forced to destroy those terror tunnels) and just admit that Israel has a right to exist. Israel isn't the aggressor. It's all up to Hamas.

 

[Zeek]

Thanks for your reply. As you said, most Israelis don't rest their case 'solely' on ancient texts. It is my understanding that when you say that Israelis don't 'solely' base their claim to land entitlement on ancient texts, you are saying it is, in fact, one of the reasons, but there are also other reasons. What is the most important reason of all?

Most Israelis, even the majority who are not religious, still recognize the historical aspects of their Old Covenant writings, and even refer to them on occasion...but modern Israel was founded on a legitimate claim of Jewish people to have a sovereign State in their historic homeland, where a number of their people had lived since ancient times.

I agree, God does share his heart through the pages of the bible. As I stated before, I believe that Jesus is about the heart. He has shown us in His word that we are to pray for our enemies. Now we all know that we are imperfect people and that is not going to happen in this fallen world, particularly when we are talking about State leaders. But it is the ideal.

My problem is with those Christians and Jews who believe that they are fighting in the name of God, Israel, and, as you say, the ancient texts. It is no different than extremist muslims that kill in the name of God.

Not quite sure of who you are talking about specifically...there are extremists, but in Israel they have very little sway, whereas in Moslem controlled regions they are hailed as heroes.

I also don't believe that God, is in the business of establishing a physical place through wars and killing.

I think there is a case for a 'just war' and for defending your land and your people.

However, the New Jersualem will come down from God "out of Heaven". He will come for all people and Jews will recognize Him as the Messiah they have been waiting for. In fact, there are Orthodox Jews who also do not believe in a materialistic salvation and their interpretation of the Torah is not the same.

For all that trust in G-d and the Bible, no matter what happens in this world there are such glorious things that await us...looking forward to that banquet with the King of Kings.

Lastly, pretty much everyone thinks they are right and that their decisions are "righteous" and that they are fighting for a just cause. Doesn't make it right, though.

Hopefully we will see that some of the things people are fighting for are worth it and are done with the best of intentions.

I will never believe that this is God's way. Our religions are being played and we are the pawns of the powerful and greedy leaders and the evil one that controls them.

In the case of Israel (which is what we are really talking about)...they aren't given a great deal of choice...but all governments are made up of fallible sinful human beings and contain both the good and bad...I try to support the actions of those that I think are right and pray that G-ds purposes will become apparent.

If a man sees his wife and family about to be murdered it would be an ungodly thing not to try and save them, even if it meant killing the attacker...there is a time to kill, and a time to heal...may G-d give us the wisdom to discern between them.

 

[seekingfreedom]

With all due respect, I would rather get my history and information from those Jews who are for peace, not war. They are not self-hating Jews, they are humble and search for truth.
Israel/Palestine 101 | Jewish Voice for Peace

 

[LoAmmi]

With all due respect, I would rather get my history and information from those Jews who are for peace, not war. They are not self-hating Jews, they are humble and search for truth.
Israel/Palestine 101 | Jewish Voice for Peace

Peace should be the goal for everybody. When it comes to Jews, any Jew for war is in violation of the words of the Prophets. A prayer:

Lord of Peace, Divine Ruler, to whom peace belongs!
Master of Peace, Creator of all things!
May it be thy will to put an end to war and bloodshed on earth, and to spread a great and wonderful peace over the whole world, so that nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.
Help us and save us all, and let us cling tightly to the virtue of peace. Let there be a truly great peace between every person and their fellow, and between husband and wife, and let there be no discord between people even in their hearts.
Let us never shame any person on earth, great or small. May it be granted unto us to fulfill Thy Commandment to “Love thy neighbor as thyself,” with all our hearts and souls and bodies and possessions.
And let it come to pass in our time as it is written, “And I will give peace in the land, and you shall lie down and none shall make you afraid. I will drive the wild beasts from the land, and neither shall the sword go through your land.
God who is peace, bless us with peace !!!