The Orthodox Way by Bishop Kallistos

[Orthodox Andrew]

Perhaps you have the hardback edition?

I do, but you think they could have at least given me one of those book sleeves?

 

[MariaRegina]

I do, but you think they could have at least given me one of those book sleeves?

I think if they are damaged, they just remove them.

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

I think if they are damaged, they just remove them.

Oh, too bad. I would have liked to have had one. Oh well.

 

[MariaRegina]

Andreas,

Did either of Bishop Kallistos Ware's books deal specificially with tollhouses? If so, could you please give us the quotes. It would really help to see what they say, as Metropolitan Hierothero seems to be saying that tollhouses are only for the condemned souls as a temporary place (prison) while they await hell at the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

Andreas,

Did either of Bishop Kallistos Ware's books deal specificially with tollhouses? If so, could you please give us the quotes. It would really help to see what they say, as Metropolitan Hierothero seems to be saying that tollhouses are only for the condemned souls as a temporary place (prison) while they await hell at the Second Coming of Christ.

From what I can recall Bishop Kallistos never mentions tollhouses in any of the works I have read by him, sorry. It's very hard to find any mention of tollhouses in any Orthodox works, really.

 

[MariaRegina]

I don't know where Photini and JefftheFinn are getting the notion that all of us must pass through these so-called tollhouses.

Cradle Orthodox don't seem to be obsessed with tollhouses. All the Orthodox Priests I know from the OCA, Greek and Antiochians reject the tollhouses as wrong and/or heretical. A few have called this notion an outright heresy.

When we sing "Christos Anesti" we are saying that Christ has trampled down death by death. Tollhouses belong to the realm of the devil -- and Christ has triumphed over the devil.

So this whole notion of Tollhouses takes away from Christ's victory over death.

Therefore I see this tollhouse belief that everyone, saint and sinner, must pass through as erroneous and dangerous.

Dangerous because a belief in tollhouses can lead to despair and a pathelogical fear of death. However, Christ has trampled upon death and we should not have a morbid fear if we are truly Christians.

Erroneous because this teaching can lead us to the wrong conclusion.

Furthermore, a person mentioned St. Basil's dream of the tollhouse. Since when has the Orthodox Church accepted dreams and visions as a theological proof? I have heard Catholic Priests say that Fatima and Lourdes are proof that the Immaculate Conception is a valid Catholic dogma, because our Lady said that she was "the Immaculate Conception." However, the Church has always cautioned us to beware of dreams and visions as the devil can appear as an angel of light and deceive us. Isn't this whole notion of tollhouses more of a demonic attempt to lead us into despair or apprehension at the thought of death when it should be a time of joyful homecoming?

Furthermore, the Church prays: Blessed in the eyes of the Lord is the death of His saints. Death would not be considered a blessing if it was a terrifying experience called tollhouses, would it?

No, tollhouses are a myth -- a product of a bad imagination.

 

[Reader Nilus]

Orthodox teaching is found in Her services and prayers, and the hymnography of the Church refers to toll houses or way stations in several places. A Saint who was a leading teacher in Orthodoxy, St Ignatius Brianchaninov teaches about them.
Are the references to toll houses in the Church Hymnography fantasy? When I became Orthodox, I was told if one wants to know what the Church teaches then listen to the hymns and prayers of the Church. That is where the toll houses keep popping up, in various hymns and prayers.
Do the passions disappear when a person reposes? If one is double minded at death one is going to be tempted by the various passions. They are indeed a trial.
Jeff the Finn

 

[MariaRegina]

Orthodox teaching is found in Her services and prayers, and the hymnography of the Church refers to toll houses or way stations in several places. A Saint who was a leading teacher in Orthodoxy, St Ignatius Brianchaninov teaches about them.
Are the references to toll houses in the Church Hymnography fantasy? When I became Orthodox, I was told if one wants to know what the Church teaches then listen to the hymns and prayers of the Church. That is where the toll houses keep popping up, in various hymns and prayers.
Do the passions disappear when a person reposes? If one is double minded at death one is going to be tempted by the various passions. They are indeed a trial.
Jeff the Finn

[emphasis mine.]

Okay, this seems to clarify things.

If one is double-minded, then he is a liar and not repentant. Perhaps a person is not aware that he is double-minded but lives in delusion or prelest.

In that sense, I can see a person going through "purgatory" or "a test' because such a person is not yet worthy of heaven, but if and only if that person has not seriously sinned and cut himself off from Christ's Holy Church by willful and deliberate serious sins. In that case he will be saved, but only through fire.

However, the Saints or Holy Ones of God do not have to face such trials and purifications. Otherwise, the Church would not pray "Blessed in the eyes of the Lord is the death of His Saints." They die a holy death.

Indeed, a terminal illness is often a blessing, because I have seen and heard of people changing and dying a true Christian death, with a beatific smile on their face. Truly, they would not be smiling if horrors immediately awaited them.

Nevertheless, death is a mystery -- and the church has not ruled definitively on the Last Things, except that there will be a Final Judgment, and there is a heaven and a hell.

The only doctrine on the temporary period between our Immediate Judgment and the Final Judgment is "purgatory" which was defined by the Catholic Church, but never defined by the Orthodox Church. The idea of tollhouses remains an unproven theory at best, but not a doctrine.

 

[MariaRegina]

Orthodox teaching is found in Her services and prayers, and the hymnography of the Church refers to toll houses or way stations in several places. A Saint who was a leading teacher in Orthodoxy, St Ignatius Brianchaninov teaches about them.

Jeff the Finn

Dear Jeff:

In the Greek and Antiochian Orthodox Churches, none of the Holy Services and prayers allude to the idea of tollhouses. There is a profound silence here.

From what you are telling me, even the OCA menaion does not mention tollhouses but only books from non-canonical churches allude to tollhouses. Therefore, the idea of tollhouses seems a myth, definitely not a dogma or a part of our Holy Tradition that is necessary for our salvation.

Saints are not infallible -- so even their mention of tollhouses is not a definition.

What is important here, however, is to be prepared for death -- to really strive to be repentant. To spend more time in prayer, and less time arguing here on the Internet.

Let our lives be a holy witness to the Resurrection of Christ where Christ trampled down death by death. May everyone experience true repentance and celebrate the Pascha Meal in heaven.

Yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

 

[Reader Nilus]

but only books from non-canonical churches allude to tollhouses

Since when is the Russian Orthodox Church non-canonical?
Jeff the Finn

 

[Reader Nilus]

The menaion that the prayer to St Nilus came from is indeed used in the OCA. St Spiridon's Orthodox Cathedral in Seattle has the whole set from St John of Kronstadt Press, and St Spiridon's is OCA.
I find listening to St Ignatius Brianchaninov on the matter far more weighty than say a HOCNA Bishop, who we know are schismatic, or the New Ostrog Monastery.
Jeff the Finn

 

[MariaRegina]

The menaion that the prayer to St Nilus came from is indeed used in the OCA. St Spiridon's Orthodox Cathedral in Seattle has the whole set from St John of Kronstadt Press, and St Spiridon's is OCA.

With the exception of the St. Nilus prayer, these references to toll houses, I have not seen. Needless to say, simply because a saint says there are toll houses, doesn't make it so as saints are NOT INFALLIBLE. Nevertheless, Father John of the OCA says that the belief in tollhouses is not a doctrine and never has been.

I find listening to St Ignatius Brianchaninov on the matter far more weighty than say a HOCNA Bishop, who we know are schismatic, or the New Ostrog Monastery.
Jeff the Finn

Touche! The HOCNA bishop did not write that essay. It was written by a very scholarly Orthodox lady who works at the Library of Congress as a Librarian. I trust her research.

Besides, in none of the articles, prayers, etc. that you have produced does it mention that the Saints and the devout have to undergo the trials of the tollhouses -- only the double-minded liars are indicated.

 

[Reader Nilus]

The following is from the patron of this forum St Athanasius's life of St Antony the Great. This should answer the remark:

Chanter wrote:
Besides, in none of the articles, prayers, etc. that you have produced does it mention that the Saints and the devout have to undergo the trials of the tollhouses -- only the double-minded liars are indicated.

Life of St Antony paragraph 65
For once, when about to eat, having risen up to pray about the ninth hour, he perceived that he was caught up in the spirit, and, wonderful to tell, he stood and saw himself, as it were, from outside himself, and that he was led in the air by certain ones. Next certain bitter and terrible beings stood in the air and wished to hinder him from passing through. But when his conductors opposed them, they demanded whether he was not accountable to them. And when they wished to sum up the account from his birth, Antony's conductors stopped them, saying, 'The Lord hath wiped out the sins from his birth, but from the time he became a monk, and devoted himself to God, it is permitted you to make a reckoning.' Then when they accused him and could not convict him, his way was free and unhindered. And immediately he saw himself, as it were, coming and standing by himself, and again he was Antony as before. Then forgetful of eating, he remained the rest of the day and through the whole of the night groaning and praying. For he was astonished when he saw against what mighty opponents our wrestling is, and by what labours we have to pass through the air. And he remembered that this is what the Apostle said, 'according to the prince of the power of the air .' For in it the enemy hath power to fight and to attempt to hinder those who pass through. Wherefore most earnestly he exhorted, 'Take up the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day,' that the enemy, 'having no evil thing to say against us, may be ashamed.' And we who have learned this, let us be mindful of the Apostle when he says, 'whether in the body I know not, or whether out of the body I know not; God knoweth .' But Paul was caught up unto the third heaven, and having heard things unspeakable he came down; while Antony saw that he had come to the air, and contended until he was free.
St Antony had to wrestle with the powers and he was one of the greatest saints of the Church.
Jeff the Finn

 

[MariaRegina]

The following is from the patron of this forum St Athanasius's life of St Antony the Great. This should answer the remark:

Life of St Antony paragraph 65
For once, when about to eat, having risen up to pray about the ninth hour, he perceived that he was caught up in the spirit, and, wonderful to tell, he stood and saw himself, as it were, from outside himself, and that he was led in the air by certain ones. Next certain bitter and terrible beings stood in the air and wished to hinder him from passing through. But when his conductors opposed them, they demanded whether he was not accountable to them. And when they wished to sum up the account from his birth, Antony's conductors stopped them, saying, 'The Lord hath wiped out the sins from his birth, but from the time he became a monk, and devoted himself to God, it is permitted you to make a reckoning.' Then when they accused him and could not convict him, his way was free and unhindered. And immediately he saw himself, as it were, coming and standing by himself, and again he was Antony as before. Then forgetful of eating, he remained the rest of the day and through the whole of the night groaning and praying. For he was astonished when he saw against what mighty opponents our wrestling is, and by what labours we have to pass through the air. And he remembered that this is what the Apostle said, 'according to the prince of the power of the air .' For in it the enemy hath power to fight and to attempt to hinder those who pass through. Wherefore most earnestly he exhorted, 'Take up the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day,' that the enemy, 'having no evil thing to say against us, may be ashamed.' And we who have learned this, let us be mindful of the Apostle when he says, 'whether in the body I know not, or whether out of the body I know not; God knoweth .' But Paul was caught up unto the third heaven, and having heard things unspeakable he came down; while Antony saw that he had come to the air, and contended until he was free.
St Antony had to wrestle with the powers and he was one of the greatest saints of the Church.
[/font]Jeff the Finn

Again, this is from the lives of the saints and involves private revelation, and is therefore not an INFALLIBLE source.

Again, please point to the Ecumenical Council that defined "Tollhouses", "Custom Houses" or "Way Stations" -- perhaps the Anglicans defined this, but Orthodoxy has never done so.

 

[Photini]

LoL! Are we talking about toll-houses on this thread too?

 

[MariaRegina]

LoL! Are we talking about toll-houses on this thread too?

Yes, I wanted to be less conspicuous and really understand where the whole idea of tollhouses originated -- and I know that Bishop Kallistos Ware talked about them -- I have the videos to prove it.

 

[Reader Nilus]

If we believe only that which was asserted by the 7 ecumenical councils and nothing more, where is the Tradition? Are you saying that testimony by saints such as Athanasius and Antony are of no value? What is the difference between that and the Assumption of the Blessed Theotokos, which also has never been defined as dogma? Why is Fr John the answer guy on the OCA website more authorative than St Ignatius Brianchaninov? The account by St Athanasius implied that St Antony was astounded at what kind of troubles there were in the air, for us knowing that because of St Antony's experience are indeed helped, so why dismiss the testimony of St Antony?
Jeff the Finn

 

[Photini]

I agree Jeff. Luckily Orthodoxy is in no way limited to "official documents."

Which reminds me...I read this the other day and wanted to share it with all of you...
http://www.orthodoxwitness.org/Articles/Attributes_of_the_Church/The_Attributes_of..html

 

[Photini]

Also, isn't it said that St. Ignatius Brianchaninov after his death appeared in a vision to someone and stated that his teachings were inspired by God? I heard this from a hieromonk but didn't think to ask where I could look up info on it.

 

[Photini]

This is the conclusion of the chapter in Met Hierotheos' book Life After Death...the chapter is entitled The taxing of souls.


"So the whole problem is not to be afraid of the customs demons, but as long as we live, to cure our soul and our whole being of passions, to partake of the uncreated grace of God, so that the departure of our soul from our body may be a matter of joy and delight.

Of course there are some who maintain that such notions as customs houses and aerial spirits have come into Christianity from Gnostic theories and pagan myths which prevailed during that period.

There is no doubt that such views can be found in many Gnostic texts, in pagan ideas which are found in Egyptian and Chaldaean myths. However, it must be emphasized that many Fathers adopted the teaching about customs houses, but they cleared it of idolatrous and Gnostic frames of reference and placed it in the ecclesiastical atmosphere. The holy Fathers were not afraid to do such creative work.

It is a fact that the Fathers were working creatively and productively when they took many views and theories from the pagan world, but gave them an ecclesiastical content. It is well known that the Fathers took the teaching about the immortality of the soul, about the ecstasy of man and the dispassion of the soul and body, and teaching about the tripartite soul and many other things from the ancient philosophies, as well as from ancient traditions, but clearly they gave them another content and a different perspective. We cannot discard the teaching about the immortality of the soul just because the ancient philosophers spoke of it. We must look at the content in which the holy Fathers gave to it.

Therefore what happened to other topics happened also to the subject of customs houses. It is true that ancient traditions and heretical views spoke of "rulers of the astral sphere", about "gates of an astral journey", about "aerial spirits", and so forth. We find several of these phrases in the Bible and in patristic texts. As we have mentioned in this chapter, many Fathers of the Church speak of customs houses an aerial spirits, but they have given them different content and different meanings. The patristic teaching about customs houses must be interpreted within the following four points:

First, The symbolic language of the Bible requires the necessary interpretation. Anyone who only keeps to the images used distorts the Gospel message. For instance, we must say that words in the Bible can be misinterpreted if we only look at their theological meaning. The same thing is true in the case of the custom houses. We should not be thinking only of today's customs houses, through which everyone has to pass at the national borders. The symbolic image is intended to present something, but it must be interpreted in an orthodox way.

Second. There are demons, which are dark angels. They are persons and therefore have freedom, and with God's permission, but also through the wrong use of freedom by man, they have been able to dominate him. That is to say, after the soul's departure from the body, the demons demand to possess a soul which they have mastered because of its unrepentance. In Christ's well-known parable about the foolish rich man there is the sentence: "Fool! This night your soul will be required of you; then whose will those things be which you have provided?" According to the patristic interpretation it is the demons who demand possession of the soul of the foolish rich man after its departure from the body.

Third. The demons have no authority over the men of God. All who are united with God and have within their soul and heart the uncreated energy of God are outside the control of the demons. So the deified will not go through the so-called customs houses.

Fourth. According to the teaching of the Fathers, as we have seen before, the demons, which are real spirits, act by means of the passions. The fact that the passions cannot be gratified after the soul's departure from the body is a suffocation of the soul.

When we examine the customs houses in these theological frames, the use of this teaching is not inappropriate. But if we have other conceptions, we are on the wrong path.