• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The Orthodox Way by Bishop Kallistos

Status
Not open for further replies.

CopticOrthodox

Active Member
Mar 16, 2003
344
6
Visit site
✟515.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
I only read this book once quickly a while ago... Everyone always speaks very highly of this book, but, does anyone have any negative thoughts about it? I admit that it is a wonderful book, and that it helped me understand a lot of stuff, but I remember reading a few things in it and thinking they were problamatic... I can't remember exactly what for most of them... I think something about implying that it might be possible for Satan to be saved was one of them. I remember thinking that the way he described doctrinal progression seemed more Catholic than Orthodox, although perhaps he was just being brief & not in depth. What did other people think about the book? Is it a perfect exposition of the Orthodox faith, or does it have some shortcomings? Should I read it again and see if I understand things better now that I know more? Thanks.
 

MariaRegina

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2003
53,283
14,159
Visit site
✟115,460.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Dear Coptic:

I had problems with it also. I lost the book somewhere so I didn't get another copy.

The Heresy of Universal Salvation

A Priest told me that Bishop Kallistos is very close to the heresy of Universal Salvation; however, we cannot say that he has fallen into heresy. He probably has read the teachings of St. Silouan and is concerned for the salvation of all.

St. Silouan was so concerned for the salvation of souls that he even prayed for the salvation of Satan. I think there is a difference between praying for someone's salvation and believing that everyone will be saved.

Toll Houses

Another idea is toll houses. This is not a dogmatic teaching in the Orthodox Churches. It stems from the ancient Kabbalistic teaching of the Jews. My priest doesn't believe in toll houses as he believes that it is more of an Anglican belief, which is where Bishop Kallistos was raised as a youth.

When I was in the Catholic Church, I never heard of toll houses. They spoke of purgatory. At least the purgatorial belief states that you will be saved once you have been purified.

The toll house theory is scary - they believe that you can actually lose your salvation while you go from toll gate to toll gate in the afterlife. This idea was never mentioned in the Sacred Scriptures. Furthermore, I think it will cause terror at death when the Church prays for a peaceful death.

Jeff the Finn is probably going to object -- so, Jeff, here is your opportunity to explain why you think the theory of Toll Houses is valid and consistent with the liturgical prayers for a peaceful death.

Your sister in Christ,
Elizabeth
 
Upvote 0

Photini

Gone.
Jun 24, 2003
8,416
599
✟33,808.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Dear Elizabeth--
I believe in the toll houses, in that there are demons that will try to bring false witness against us and do everything they can to try and drag us away with them....
Here's a prayer by Saint Eustratios:
Most highly do I praise you, Lord, for you have taken notice of my lowliness and have not delivered me into the hands of my enemies but have relieved my sould of its needs. Now, Master, let your hand shelter me, and let your grace descend upon me, for my soul is distracted and pained at the departure from this, my miserable and sordid body, that the end design of the adversary may not overtake her and make her stumble into the darkness for the unknown and known sins amassed by me in this life. Be gracious to me, Master and to not let my soul see the dark countenance of the evil spirits, but let her be received by your angels bright and shining. Glorify your holy name, and by your might set me before your divine judgement seat. When I am being judged, do not allow the hand of the prince of this world to take hold of me, to throw me, a sinner, into the depths of hell, but stand by me and be a savior and mediator to me. Have mercy, Lord, on my soul, defiled through the passions of this life, and receive her cleansed by penitence and confession, for you are blessed to the ages of ages. Amen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Reader Nilus
Upvote 0
Jun 24, 2003
3,870
238
72
The Dalles, OR
✟5,260.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
We pray for the reposed for 40 days, for a reason. Toll Houses are an extension of how we lived our life. If we have chosen to good, then we may well be tempted but will pass on by, if in this life our true love was money, sex, fame or what have you, then we will indeed succumb to the temptations that the toll houses offer. Peaceful death is one that one knows is coming and can prepare for by confession and communion of the Holy Mysteries, an unpeaceful death is being killed by a car wreak or murdered or some other sudden death.
Jeff the Finn
 
Upvote 0

MariaRegina

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2003
53,283
14,159
Visit site
✟115,460.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Dear Photini,

I don't think that prayer describes Toll Houses per se, but is a vivid description of the judgment which we will face as sinners. If we have lived good lives and are repentant, I believe that we can trust in God's mercy. If we have lived for ourselves, then, yes, we should be fearful that the devil will claim us.

I also believe that we will be purified in this life or in the next as our God is a consuming fire.

Frankly I don't like that prayer. It sounds more like the Dies Irae of my Roman Catholic past. My priest told me to focus on prayers that help me grow in the Lord. So, I favor the Jesus Prayer and the prayer of Metropolitan Philaret.
 
Upvote 0

CopticOrthodox

Active Member
Mar 16, 2003
344
6
Visit site
✟515.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
I don't wish to argue, only to learn, I'm only asking this as a questin. Are you sertain that the tradition of the 40 days comes from the idea of toll houses? As far as I know the 40 days predates the idea of toll houses. In Egypt for example a 40 day period was part of the cultural way of morning, and that period continued on into Christianity. My priest said that the Liturgy on the 40th day was to reasure the family and to help them close thier mourning. Are you certain that the idea of toll houses wasn't incorporated into the preexisting practice of the 40 day period, rather than the 40 day period coming out of the teaching of toll houses? Do you have any sources?
 
Upvote 0

Photini

Gone.
Jun 24, 2003
8,416
599
✟33,808.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Either way, many of the saints and holy elders requested that God reveal to them the time of their death so that they may properly prepare for it.
Instead of being concerned so much about how to live, we should be learning also how to die.
I saw a horrible wreck a few weeks ago in front of my workplace. It involved an elderly woman and a semi-truck. Looking out over it, I realised how very fragile we are, and how in a matter of a few seconds, we could also be facing this particular judgement. O God, help us to be prepared.
 
Upvote 0

MariaRegina

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2003
53,283
14,159
Visit site
✟115,460.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Dear Jeff and Photini:

Perhaps we should question why the Orthodox Church never defined either purgatory or tollhouses to be a dogma. Death and the afterlife is one topic of which we know little because we cannot die and come back from the death. Death is usually final, unless you know something I don't!

I've just been searching the web on tollhouses and read several essays written by various Orthodox Priests and college professors. The consensus seems to be that we Orthodox must believe in a particular judgment which will take place soon after we die, where we will be judged. Some mention that this judgment will take place on the 40th day, while others say it will be immediate. Some saints use the "icon" of a tollhouse to describe the particular judgment of certain types of sins. Other saints don't. The church has made no definition which we must believe. However, to say that a "tollhouse" is a place where the dead are subjected to a test is gnosticism.

Therefore, the tollhouse is only an image of the review of a person's sins at his particular judgment. If he has done well, the judgment will go well, but if he has sinned seriously, he will be subject to fire. The fire will purify those who can be purified, but will torment those who are to be confined to hell perpetually. Our prayers and alms will speed the purification and aid those souls who did not repent sufficiently to immediately enter heaven.

This is the beauty of Orthodoxy. On things that really don't matter, like what name we prefer to call this particular judgment, it's not important.

It's stupid to argue over a name or over the details about which we know almost nothing for sure.

Do you agree?
 
Upvote 0

Photini

Gone.
Jun 24, 2003
8,416
599
✟33,808.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
chanterhanson said:
Dear Jeff and Photini:


This is the beauty of Orthodoxy. On things that really don't matter, like what name we prefer to call this particular judgment, it's not important.

It's stupid to argue over a name or over the details about which we know almost nothing for sure.

Do you agree?

I very much agree. This may be partly why there is no official final dogma on this issue.
 
Upvote 0

MariaRegina

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2003
53,283
14,159
Visit site
✟115,460.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Hi folks,

I thought I would resurrect this thread and continue the discussion of Bishop Kallistos and toll houses. I listened to a taped VHS series on the Resurrection (1996-7?) in which Bishop Kallistos (Ware) mentioned these ideas. When I discussed it with my priest, he disagreed with His Grace and said that this kind of teaching bordered on gnosticism and was not considered Orthodox doctrine.

Did anyone else watch this 3 part series on the Resurrection of Christ?

Anyway, since Photini and JefftheFinn mention the book, Life after death by Metropolitan Hierotheos, to confirm the existence of tollhouses, I have been reading it during my college break. Here is what Metropolitan Hierotheos states on page 23.

Metro.Hierotheos said:
Therefore, at the terrible hour of death, when the soul is forcibly separated from its harmony with the body, dreadful things happen. The angels receive the souls of the saints, and the demons receive the souls of sinners. The teaching of the Fathers of the church speaks of the 'custom houses', which are the demons, the aerial spirits which desire and attempt to rule the souls of all people forever. Of course the souls of the saints, which have been united with Christ and bear the seal of the Holy Spirit, cannot be controlled by the demons.

It seems to me that Metropolitan Hierotheos is saying that only the condemned sinners suffer the fate of the toll houses, because the saints are protected by angels.

Metro.Hierotheos said:
[p.23]When the Fathers of the church speak of the customs houses, they mean both the hatred and aggressive fury of the demons and the existence of the passions, which seek satisfaction but cannot be satisfied because of the non-existence of the body. It is just this condition that suffocates the soul, which feels a terrible anguish. [p.24]This torment of the souls is like the complete solitary confinement of a person in prison without any possibility of sleeping, eating, meeting anyone, and so forth. Then his passions and his whole being are really infuriated.

The fact that men's souls are received by angels or by demons is relative to their condition. As the Fathers say, angels and souls are noetic spirits in comparison with the material body, but in comparison with God they have something material. So the angels are called ethereal beings, they are not entirely immaterial. Furthermore, the soul is a creature, which means that it is created by God. It is immortal by grace, for immortality is God's gift to it. Every creature has a beginning and anend. Since the soul is created, it has a definite beginning, but it has no end, for God willed it so.

So it appears that the good Metropolitan is telling us that the soon-to-be-condemned sinners who are awaiting the Final Judgment of Christ are the ones who inhabit the custom houses. In this sense, the toll house is the demonic abode -- it is a temporary condition, a foretaste of hell, until the place of hell is finally established at the final judgment.

Metro.Hierotheos said:
[p. 26]For Hell will begin after the Second Coming of Christ and the future judgement, while the souls of sinners experience hades after their departure from the body. According to the teaching of the holy Fathers, hades is an intelligible place, it is the foretaste of Hell, when a person receives the caustic energy of God.

However the blessed ones, even with slight imperfections, are not sent to the toll houses because they are protected and guided by their angels. They experience a foretaste of heaven.

An interesting point was raised on page 27, a point with which both Bishops Kallistos and Hierotheos agree:
Metro.Hierotheos said:
This is a very significant point, for it shows that in that other life everyone will see God, but the righteous will have communion, participation, while the sinners will not. A characteristic example is what Chirst said about the coming judgement. All will see the Judge, all will converse with Him, but some will enjoy His glory and others will experience the caustic energy of Divine Grace.

This is probably one area where Catholics might disagree with Orthodoxy.

I was raised as a Catholic to believe that in Hell, the condemned do not see God whereas in Heaven the saints behold His Presence (the Beatific Vision). Here our Orthodox Bishops are teaching us that in the afterlife everyone will behold God, but to the sinners it will be a hellish experience and to the Saints eternal joy.

Any comments?
 
Upvote 0

Orthodox Andrew

Orthodox Church- Telling The Truth Since 33 A.D.
Aug 24, 2003
3,177
166
39
Visit site
✟27,048.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
chanter said:
Here our Orthodox Bishops are teaching us that in the afterlife everyone will behold God, but to the sinners it will be a hellish experience and to the Saints eternal joy.

Any comments?
Is that not kind of what St. Isaac the Syrian spoke of?
 
Upvote 0

MariaRegina

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2003
53,283
14,159
Visit site
✟115,460.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Andreas said:
Is that not kind of what St. Isaac the Syrian spoke of?

A lot of the saints have spoken of this: St. John of Kronstadt, St. Seraphim of Sarov, St. Silouan of Mt. Athos. And even Father Maximos of Mt. Athos mentioned this in the book The Mountain of Silence by Kyriacos Markides.

Do you have any quotes?
 
Upvote 0

Orthodox Andrew

Orthodox Church- Telling The Truth Since 33 A.D.
Aug 24, 2003
3,177
166
39
Visit site
✟27,048.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
chanter said:
A lot of the saints have spoken of this. St. John of Kronstadt, St. Seraphim of Sarov, St. Silouan of Mt. Athos. And even Father Maximos of Mt. Athos mentioned this in the book The Mountain of Silence by Kyriacos Markides.

Do you have any quotes?
Not that I know of, sorry. I just remember reading about it in the last chapter of "The Inner Kingdom" by Kallistos Ware. Actually, the chapter was about Universal salvation.
 
Upvote 0

MariaRegina

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2003
53,283
14,159
Visit site
✟115,460.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Andreas said:
Not that I know of, sorry. I just remember reading about it in the last chapter of "The Inner Kingdom" by Kallistos Ware. Actually, the chapter was about Universal salvation.

Andreas,

You read a lot of books. I'm impressed!

What did you think of the book The Inner Kingdom?

Yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth
 
Upvote 0

Orthodox Andrew

Orthodox Church- Telling The Truth Since 33 A.D.
Aug 24, 2003
3,177
166
39
Visit site
✟27,048.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
chanter said:
Andreas,

You read a lot of books. I'm impressed!

What did you think of the book The Inner Kingdom?

Yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth
Thanks.;)

I liked it a lot, but sometimes I really questioned how he decided what subject to tackle in each chapter. The book can really vary from chapter to chapter. But overall I liked it. It really helped me understand Kallistos' journey to Orthodoxy, and a bit of the state of Orthodox-Anglican affairs at the time. It also taught me some good stuff about hesychasm and fools for Christ. But I think the greatest thing I gained from that book is a true understanding of martyrdom, and I now have a more in awe feeling for those who choose it. Overall I would recommend the book to any semi-new Orthodox Christian.

And this concludes Andreas' book review.:D
 
Upvote 0
Jun 24, 2003
3,870
238
72
The Dalles, OR
✟5,260.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
St. John Chrysostom Homily on Patience and Gratitude
Then we will need many prayers, many helpers, many good deeds, and a great intercession from angels on the journeys through the spaces of the air. If when travelling in a foreign land or a strange city we are in need of a guide, how much more necessary for us are guides and helpers to guide us past the invisible dignities and powers and world-rulers of this air, who are called persecutors and publicans and tax-collectors."
St Ignatius Brianchaninov vol. III, pp. 132-133
"The space between heaven and earth, the whole azure expanse of the air which is visible to us under the heavens, serves as the dwelling for the fallen angels who have been cast down from heaven…. The holy Apostle Paul calls the fallen angels the spirits of wickedness under the heavens (Eph. 6:12), and their chief the prince of the powers of the air (Eph. 2:2). The fallen angels are dispersed in a multitude throughout the entire transparent immensity, which we see above us. They do not cease to disturb all human societies and every person separately; there is no evil deed, no crime, of which they might not be instigators and participants; they incline and instruct men towards sin by all possible means. Your adversary the devil, says the holy Apostle Peter, walketh about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour (I Peter 5:, both during our earthly life and after the separation of the soul from the body. When the soul of a Christian, leaving its earthly dwelling, begins to strive through the aerial spaces towards the homeland on high, the demons stop it, strive to find in it a kinship with themselves, their sinfulness, their fall, and to drag it down to the hell prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41). They act thus by the right which the have acquired."
vol. III Page 136
"For the testing of souls as they pass through the spaces of the air there have been established by the dark powers separate judgment places and guards in a remarkable order. In the layers of the under-heaven, from earth to heaven itself, stand guarding legions of fallen spirits. Each division is in charge of a special form of sin and tests the soul in it when the soul reaches this division. The aerial demonic guards and judgment places are called in the patristic writing the toll-houses, and the spirits who serve in them are called tax-collectors."

The issue has not been defined, but there is plenty of support in the Tradition for toll-houses.
Jeff the Finn
 
Upvote 0

Orthodox Andrew

Orthodox Church- Telling The Truth Since 33 A.D.
Aug 24, 2003
3,177
166
39
Visit site
✟27,048.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.