The origins of atheism

AV1611VET · Sep 23, 2015

Davian said:
But you are not saying that science is myopic, but that it is wrong. Amirite?

One of the reasons science is wrong is because science is myopic.

Belk · Sep 23, 2015

AV1611VET said:
Do atheists believe in the Resurrection, angels, or spirits?

Acts 23:8a For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit:

Kind of depends on the atheist. The only thing all atheists have in common is a lack of belief in gods.

Nick_A · Sep 23, 2015

Wryetui said:
Hello there everyone. I am sure this has been discussed before but I would like to start a new discussion on this. I want to hear your opinions on why do you think atheism exists and its cause. I will tell mine only after I see yours.

Simone Weil was a brilliant Marxist and atheist who died a Christian mystic and became an intellectual influence on Pope Paul V1. She wrote: "Religion in so far as it is a source of consolation is a hindrance to true faith; and in this sense atheism is a purification. I have to be an atheist with that part of myself which is not made for God. Among those in whom the supernatural part of themselves has not been awakened, the atheists are right and the believers wrong."
- Simone Weil, Faiths of Meditation; Contemplation of the divine
the Simone Weil Reader, edited by George A. Panichas (David McKay Co. NY 1977) p 417

Chriliman · Sep 23, 2015

Belk said:
Kind of depends on the atheist. The only thing all atheists have in common is a lack of belief in gods.

Or is it lack of knowledge of the truth?

Davian · Sep 23, 2015

AV1611VET said:
One of the reasons science is wrong is because science is myopic.

Because science can't see what is undetectable, and your "God" is undetectable. Amirite?

LynnC · Sep 23, 2015

Eudaimonist said:
Wondering isn't knowing in any sense that I'm familiar with. Wondering arises from not knowing. Yes, I have wondered many things, of course.

Hi Mark,
It's that 'knowing', inside of you, that you had to have come from somewhere, that there has to be some purpose to life, that causes the wonderment...
that causes you to want to know, what you do not know... because you know there is something there that you can't quite lay grasp to.

Eudaimonist said:
Created? That's saying too much. Certainly I wondered what sort of processes had lead to everything that I could see. I had never assumed that everything must be an intelligent creation.

That's what I mean.... How can people NOT see the intelligent design behind everything?

Eudaimonist said:
My inner voices are my own. They are a product of my psychology. That's me in there, even if not all of that is a product of the consciously thinking "ego".

And it is in large part my "external" voice that is responsible for my sense of morality and law. I have an interest in philosophy, and philosophy has guided me quite a bit in that regard. My "inner voices" are to some extent trained by that study. The ideas that people are exposed to have an influence on their conscience. That's why people can have very different politics, and yet all feel that their political opponents are bad people.

'inner voices are your own' ... 'a product of psychology'...
Where do you think that comes from? Where does that 'psychology' come from?
Where do you think philosophy comes from?
Where do you think religion comes from?
Where does religion come from if not philosophy?

You see, you think everything you know comes from you...
but there is something greater than you, informing you, informing your conscience, informing your 'philosophy'.

Those 'external voices' come first from internal voices.

Eudaimonist said:
It may be, but I've heard it before many times.

Don't you find that interesting? I do.
It seems that, those of us who say it must be being informed by a higher power.

Eudaimonist said:
Oh? In what way?

Eudaimonia (also known as Eudaemonism) is a Greek word, which refers to a state of having a good indwelling spirit or being in a contented state of being healthy, happy and prosperous. In moral philosophy, eudaimonia is used to refer to the right actions as those that result in the well-being of an individual.

As I said;
It is that inner voice which is God living in you.

Peace and blessings to you.

Davian · Sep 23, 2015

Chriliman said:
Or is it lack of knowledge of the truth?

I have seen your religious opinion, but I don't find it compelling.

gord44 · Sep 23, 2015

Chriliman said:
Or is it lack of knowledge of the truth?

Please tell us again what the truth is. Using evidence that can be presented here and not something you personally experienced but can't share with us. If you have knowledge of the truth that is tangible and available to be examined by all five senses that would be awesome!

ecco · Sep 23, 2015

In Numbers 31:7-18 the Israelites kill all the Midianites except for the virgins, whom they are allowed to rape as spoils of war.

LynnC said:
Just a note on this... I never took, 'keep them for yourselves' as meaning keep the women to rape them. I always took it to mean merely save the women for you will be needing wives if you are to produce and have children.

From your link:

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women-children, that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Consider:
A family of four. A woman, her husband, their 3 year old son and their 10 year old daughter.
The husband/father has already been slain
The wife/mother will be slain
The 3 year old son will be slain

What do you think is going to happen to the 10 year old daughter?

Do you believe a nice 14 year old boy is going to say “When we get older I'd like to marry you”?

LynnC said:
I do not know that we can really say how brutish, or not brutish, the men were with the women.

Really? They have already slain all the men, all the older women, all the young boys. Are so enamored with the bible that you find it impossible to apply any critical thinking?

Belk · Sep 23, 2015

Chriliman said:
Or is it lack of knowledge of the truth?

No, it is a lack of belief in gods. That is what the word means.

Colter · Sep 23, 2015

gordRedeemed said:
Please tell us again what the truth is. Using evidence that can be presented here and not something you personally experienced but can't share with us. If you have knowledge of the truth that is tangible and available to be examined by all five senses that would be awesome!

"Truth is inconcussible—forever exempt from all transient vicissitudes, albeit never dead and formal, always vibrant and adaptable—radiantly alive. But when truth becomes linked with fact, then both time and space condition its meanings and correlate its values. Such realities of truth wedded to fact become concepts and are accordingly relegated to the domain of relative cosmic realities." UB 1955

gord44 · Sep 23, 2015

Colter said:
"Truth is inconcussible—forever exempt from all transient vicissitudes, albeit never dead and formal, always vibrant and adaptable—radiantly alive. But when truth becomes linked with fact, then both time and space condition its meanings and correlate its values. Such realities of truth wedded to fact become concepts and are accordingly relegated to the domain of relative cosmic realities." UB 1955

Coo. What's the Urantia Book? Haven't heard of it.

ecco · Sep 23, 2015

LynnC said:
Where do you think religion comes from?

This wasn't addressed to me and is the flip side of of the question raised in the OP, however, I'd like to respond.

As the earliest humans developed language abilities they used these new found skills to pass information on from generation to generation. At some point, they started wondering about the world around them and their existence. Where do we come from? Why do good people get sick and die? What happens to us when we die?

"Where do we come from" was addressed by every culture around the world. There are thousands of creation stories, none more or less compelling than those in the OT.

If god (or gods) made everything, who/what made god/s? God (the gods) have always existed.
Why do good people get sick and die? The ways of god (the gods) are indeed mysterious.
What happens to us when we die? Good people join him in the clouds, bad people go into the fires of volcanoes.

God/s was used/were used to explain everything that "leaders" could not explain.

What causes lightning? The gods are throwing mighty spears at each other.
Why have the rains not come? God is angry with us.
What can we do to appease god? Slaughter a lamb / sacrifice a virgin.

I could go on, but you get the idea. Thanks for asking.

Oafman · Sep 23, 2015

LynnC said:
Greetings Oafman,
This is the lie of the deceiver to deceive.
Homosexuality does great harm. Think of the diseases born of this act.
The deceiver wants to destroy the creation. What better way than to pervert the act of procreation... to make humans burn with unnatural affections, and then to accept as natural those unnatural affections... affections that can produce no offspring, and affections that will cause only confusion to future generations, creating more unnatural affection, until the creation destroys itself.

It is natural to have affection for others of the same sex.
It is not natural to turn that affection into sexual affection.
It is the deceiver that causes the mind to turn a natural affection into an unnatural affection.

Homosexuality is indeed harmful to the creation.
It is why I said;
"Most often we don't see how our actions hurt us and others until much later after having fallen into the sinful way."

There are factual inaccuracies in there which I would like to correct, and which undermine your argument, but I would risk being in breach of forum rules. We can't go into this subject I'm afraid.

LynnC said:
I'm sorry that my statement sounds offensive to you. People most often are blind to their own selfishness. It is a perspective that changes, with some, according to age. Quite often as we age we can look back and see our selfishness. Some people, however, are never able to see it. It's just part of our sin nature that we, if we are Godly, must strive to overcome.

I'm not selfish, and I've been around long enough to recognise the times when I have been. And of course it's a relative concept. But overall, I'm not.

LynnC said:
I understand... and that is the root of your a-theism ... your belief in yourself as all-knowing.

I admit my ignorance. I don't claim to know how or why everything around me originated, and I don't claim to know the purpose of our existence. It feels somewhat hollow to be told that I 'think of myself as all-knowing' by someone who does claim to know these unknowable things.

Chriliman · Sep 23, 2015

gordRedeemed said:
Please tell us again what the truth is. Using evidence that can be presented here and not something you personally experienced but can't share with us. If you have knowledge of the truth that is tangible and available to be examined by all five senses that would be awesome!

Isn't our ability to reason pretty good evidence that there must be a reason that we humans can reason? Or is all this reasoning just to find out that there is no reason that we can reason?

I know it's a basic question, but still goes unanswered among the atheist/agnostic community. Could the reason you don't know why humans can reason be because you're atheist/agnostic? It would make sense at least.

gord44 · Sep 23, 2015

Chriliman said:
Isn't our ability to reason pretty good evidence that there must be a reason that we humans can reason? Or is all this reasoning just to find out that there is no reason that we can reason?

I think the reason we can reason is so that we can be happy and enjoy life within the confines of nature. Nature being our human nature. This issue arises when people want to know more then is possible so turn to religion and philosophy. But heck, I get it. It's all good friend.

I know it's a basic question, but still goes unanswered among the atheist community. Could the reason you don't know why humans can reason be because you're atheist? It would make sense at least.

I am not an atheist good sir.

quatona · Sep 23, 2015

Chriliman said:
Isn't our ability to reason pretty good evidence that there must be a reason that we humans can reason?

No, it isn´t.
Plus: This equivocational use of the word "reason"´s gotta stop. It makes you look stupid.

Or is all this reasoning just to find out that there is no reason that we can reason?

Nobody said there is no reason we can reason.
It helps us with a lot of useful things - so even if it doesn´t help with this useless self-referential issue you are so obsessed with, there´s still plenty of benefit for us in this ability.

I know it's a basic question, but still goes unanswered among the atheist/agnostic community.

Yes, the "I don´t know" thing plays a huge part in this community - particularly when it comes to loaded questions.
While pretending to know the answers appears to be one of your favourite games.

Could the reason you don't know why humans can reason be because you're atheist/agnostic? It would make sense at least.

No, that wouldn´t make sense - unless we´d presuppose that you theists have it all figured out.

Colter · Sep 23, 2015

gordRedeemed said:
Coo. What's the Urantia Book? Haven't heard of it.

The Urantia Book is massive revelation, or purported revelation in the form of a book that occurred in Chicogo in the 20th century, roughly 1911-1955. The book was placed in a trust and is now available for free on the Internet as it is in the "public domain".

For me to describe it would not do justice, you may go to Urantia.org, the trust site and research. Truthbook.com is another. Also the Wikipedia has a fair synopsis in my opinion. Christian forms locked up any discussion threads about the book.

gord44 · Sep 23, 2015

Colter said:
The Urantia Book is massive revelation, or purported revelation in the form of a book that occurred in Chicogo in the 20th century, roughly 1911-1955. The book was placed in a trust and is now available for free on the Internet as it is in the "public domain".

For me to describe it would not do justice, you may go to Urantia.org, the trust site and research. Truthbook.com is another. Also the Wikipedia has a fair synopsis in my opinion. Christian forms locked up any discussion threads about the book.

Thanks for the info. I found it on Kindle for a $1.

ScottA · Sep 23, 2015

Belk said:
Feel free to offer your open minded explanation of a non dimensional infinity.

Sorry, but that explanation is only open to the open minded.

The origins of atheism

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