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Post-Trib Only The Origin of the Pre-tribulation

mike van wyk

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By Tim Warner

The story of the development of pre-tribulationism is a tangled one. From its inception in the early 1800s, there has been a deliberate attempt to cover up its origins. And
the cover up continues to this day. This has been perpetrated along two lines of revisionism. One was to hide the real origin of pretribulationism in 19th century Scotland, and attribute it to John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. The other has been a recent attempt to selectively quote and misrepresent ancient Christian documents to make it appear early Christian writers were pre-tribulationists. The purpose of this article is to document a timeline of the major events in the
development of this relatively new prophetic viewpoint.

THE REFORMATION CHURCH
During and after the Protestant Reformation (16th century), Protestant Christians held to what is called “historicism,” a view of prophecy that considers the events of Revelation as occurring all throughout the Church's history. This was supported by employing the “year-day theory” — that the 1260, 1290, & 1335 days mentioned in
Daniel and Revelation should be interpreted as years. It was common for Protestants to identify the Roman Catholic Church with Mystery Babylon, and the papacy with the Antichrist. Since historicists considered the tribulation as encompassing most of the Church age, and viewed themselves as being in the tribulation, they were necessarily post-tribulationists. This view lent itself to a flurry of date-setting in the first half of the 19th century, where the 1260, 1290, & 1335 days (years) were calculated from the Roman Church's rise to supreme power under the Roman Emperors, until the second
coming.

THE RETURN TO PRE-MILLENNIALISM

Morgan Edwards

Morgan Edwards was a Baptist minister in Pennsylvania in the mid-late 1700s. As a teenager and seminary student, Morgan wrote a hypothetical essay as part of his seminary training. Morgan was assigned the task, by his tutor, to write an essay on the Millennium using literal interpretation. In Morgan's hypothetical scenario, he
separated the rapture from the second coming by at least 3.5 years. His work seems to be a mixture of futurism and historicism. And, Morgan contradicted himself and made many obvious errors. Yet, his work appears to be the very first time the rapture was separated from the second coming of Christ. Many years later (1788), Morgan
published his essay in a book. While Morgan Edwards is sometimes cited as a pre-tribulationist, his work indicates that he did not wish to be seen as a literalist, and was content with the typical historicist view of the times. He insisted that his work was purely hypothetical. Furthermore, there is no apparent connection between Morgan Edwards’ essay and modern pre-tribulationism. Morgan's later works do not display pre-tribulationist thinking. We must look elsewhere for the origins of modern pre-tribulationism.

Father Manuel de Lacunza

Fr. Manuel de Lacunza was a Roman Catholic Jesuit priest, born in Chilli in 1731, and sent to Spain at the young age of 15 to become a Jesuit priest. When the Jesuits were
expelled from Spain in 1767, Fr. Lacunza moved to Italy. In 1790, he wrote a book on prophecy, called The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, which was published in
Spain in 1812. Fr. Lacunza wrote under the pen name, Juan Josafat Ben-Ezra (a converted Jew), allegedly to avoid detection since his book ended up on Rome's
banned books list. Fr. Lacunza's book promoted a return to the literal interpretation of Old Testament prophecy, and the primitive futurist view of Revelation. He rejected the
“year-day theory” of the historicists. Consequently, he saw a personal Antichrist and future tribulation of 1260 days, followed by the second coming of the Lord. He did not
espouse a pre-tribulation rapture.

Edward Irving

Edward Irving was the pastor of a Church of Scotland(Presbyterian) congregation in London in the 1820s. Irving became aware of Fr. Lacunza's book, and was so impressed with it; he took it upon himself to translate it into English, adding a lengthy Preliminary Discourse of his own. Irving's English translation was published in 1827. Irving's developing prophetic views can be clearly discerned from his Preliminary Discourse, including, surprisingly, all the key elements of dispensationalism that later showed up in Darby's writings, Irving indicated that he had been teaching these things to his congregation beginning in Christmas 1825, several years before Darby embraced dispensational ideas. Irving strongly denounced the apostasy of the Christian denominations in his preaching. He proclaimed that God was about to restore Apostles and prophets to the Church in the last days, and that a great Pentecostal outpouring would come just before the soon return of Jesus Christ. Right on schedule, rumours of healings, tongues, visions, and other manifestations began circulating in Port Glasgow, Scotland, from the home of James and George MacDonald and their sister Margaret. People came from England, Ireland, and Scotland to observe the strange manifestations in the prayer meetings held by the

MacDonald’s.

The “revival” quickly spread to Irving's church, with tongues, prophecy, and other manifestations breaking out. Irving was eventually defrocked by the Church of Scotland because of the strange goings on, and his heretical views of the person of Christ, (he taught that Jesus had a fallen human nature). So, Irving moved his congregation to a rented hall, forming the Catholic Apostolic Church. Not only were tongues, prophetic revelations, and other alleged miracles occurring in Irving's congregation, but these ecstatic utterances focused on end-time prophecy concerning the coming of the Lord.

Margaret MacDonald’s Visions – March, 1830

In March or April of 1830, after being ill and bed-ridden for about 18 months, Margaret MacDonald claimed to have seen a series of visions. She wrote down these visions in a series of letters, and sent copies to Edward Irving. A month later (June), Irving claimed in a private letter, that Margaret's visions had a huge impact on him: "the substance of Mary Campbell's and Margaret MacDonald's visions or revelations, given in their papers, carry to me a spiritual conviction and a spiritual reproof which I cannot express." The outstanding feature of Margaret's visions was an outpouring of the Holy Spirit on an elite group within Christianity, just prior to the coming of Antichrist. She saw only “Spirit filled” Christians being caught up to meet Jesus in the air, which she identified as the five “wise virgins” of Jesus’ parable in Matthew 25. The rest of
Christianity, the “foolish virgins,” would be left to be purged and purified by suffering at the hands of the Antichrist, until they were fit to be with the Lord.

The Morning Watch – September 1830

The official quarterly publication of the Irvingite charismatics was called, "The Morning Watch." It had exclusively promoted a post tribulation second coming through mid-1830. But, the September 1830 issue featured part two of an article by someone named, “Fidus,” promoting the theory, that the seven letters in Revelation, describe seven consecutive “Church Ages”. In this article, Fidus articulated the new idea of a partial Pre-tribulation rapture. He saw the Philadelphian (Spirit filled) church being raptured prior to the tribulation, and the Laodicean church representing the rest of Christianity. The Morning Watch was quickly becoming the vehicle for providing a biblical basis for Margaret MacDonald’s pre-tribulation rapture of “Spirit filled” Christians.

The Morning Watch – June, 1831

In the June 1831 issue of The Morning Watch, Edward Irving made his pre-tribulationism crystal clear. His biblical support for the elite “Spirit-filled” believers being raptured before the tribulation was the catching up of the “manchild” in Revelation 12. Irving argued that the body of Christ has been "united to Him by regeneration of the Holy Ghost, 'born of God, sons of God,' (Rev. II.27; XII.5). And therefore we with him are called Christ (1 Cor. XII. 12)." Irving went on to say that, "with this key [that Spirit filled Christians are also “Christ,” and that the catching up of the “man child” refers to the rapture of Spirit-filled believers] the Old Testament prophecies which speak of Christ must be interpreted, and especially those prophecies which speak of the pregnant woman: to all which an explicit key is given to us in the xiith chapter of Revelation; where, though the child is spoken of as one (ver. 5), it is also described as many (ver.11), who overcame the accuser; and when that number is
accomplished, there are still a remnant of her seed, whom the dragon doth persecute and seek to destroy (ver. 17). This two-fold company – the one gathered before, and the other after the travailing woman are cast out into the wilderness... – do together constitute the New Jerusalem, the bride of the Lamb, which cometh down from heaven." (pp. 301-302).

The Morning Watch – December, 1832

An anonymous writer in the December 1832 (p. 249) issue of The Morning Watch likely referred to Margaret MacDonald's letters (and probably her friend Mary
Campbell & Emily Cardale of London) with the following words; "The Spirit of God has caused several young women, in different parts of Great Britain, to condense into a few broken sentences more and deeper theology than ever Vaughan, Chalmers, or Irving uttered in their longest sermons; and therefore more than all the rest of the Evangelical pulpits ever put forth in the whole course of their existence."

Robert Baxter (1833)

British Lawyer, Robert Baxter, was an early member of the Irvingite charismatics. Baxter had previously been a post-tribulationist, but eventually adopted the
pre-tribulation rapture views of Irving. He, along with several other “prophets” of the Catholic Apostolic Church, gave many prophecies, all of which failed. He later became disillusioned with the whole movement, and abandoned Irvingism (and pre-tribulationism). Upon his departure, he wrote an expose of Irvingism, called
Narrative of Facts, Characterizing the Supernatural Manifestations in Members of Mr. Irving's Congregation (1833), including Irving's early pre-tribulation teachings. "An opinion had been advanced in some of Mr. Irving's writings, that before the second
coming of Christ, and before the setting in upon the world of the day of vengeance, emphatically so called in the Scriptures, the saints would be caught up to heaven like
Enoch and Elijah; and would be thus saved from the destruction of this world, as Noah was saved in the ark, and Lot was saved from Sodom." Baxter wrote that the coming of the Lord was the main topic of the prophetic utterances in Irving's congregation. Looking back, he thought they had all been deceived by lying spirits pretending to be the Holy Spirit.



Robert Norton (1861)

Robert Norton was the author of "The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets in the Catholic Apostolic Church" (1861). Norton took a favourable view of the Irvingite
movement, writing in the preface that his book was offered "as proofs or illustrations of its heavenly origin and character." Norton named Margaret MacDonald as the first
to proclaim the “new doctrine” of a pretribulation rapture, which was picked up by Edward Irving.

Samuel P. Tregelles (1855/1864)

Samuel P. Tregelles was the most eminent Plymouth Brethren scholar of the 19th century, with first hand knowledge of the Irvingites. In an 1855 article in The
Christian Annotator, Tregelles wrote that the true Christian hope is the final “advent” and "not some secret advent, or secret rapture to the Lord, as Judaizers supposed might be the case..." (A later Plymouth Brethren writer, William Kelly, also identified the Irvingites as the “Judaizers”). Nine years later, Tregelles published "The Hope of Christ's Second Coming," in which he wrote: “But when the theory of a secret coming of Christ was first brought forward (about the year 1832), it was adopted with eagerness: … I am not aware that there was any definite teaching that there would be a secret rapture of the Church at a secret coming, until this was given forth as an "utterance" in Mr. Irving’s Church, from what was there received as being the voice of the Spirit. But whether any one ever asserted such a thing or not, it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology
respecting it arose. It came not from Holy Scripture, but from that which falsely pretended to be the Spirit of God, while not owning the true doctrine of our Lord’s
incarnation in the same flesh and blood as His brethren, but without taint of sin.”
The last statement, “not owning the true doctrine of our Lord’s incarnation … without taint of sin,” referred to the Irvingite cult’s heretical view of the person of Christ, and
to the Apostle John’s test that any spirit not acknowledging the true doctrine of the incarnation was of “the spirit of antichrist,” (1 John 4:1-3).

John Nelson Darby

The Irish lawyer, John Nelson Darby, one of the founders of the Plymouth Brethren, is typically credited by pre-tribulationists as the man who “revived” dispensational pre-tribulationism. Yet it is clear that Darby was a latecomer to pre-tribulationism, which originated among the Irvingites. Darby wrote his first prophecy paper in 1829.
In this paper, he clearly did not have dispensationalist or pre-tribulationist views. Darby argued that unfulfilled Old Testament prophecy concerning the restoration of Israel
should be applied to the Church, the typical historicist – amillennial point of view. He also placed the Church on earth until Armageddon, showing he was still a post-tribulationist. By this time, dispensationalist ideas were already well developed in Irving's 1826 Preliminary Discourse. Darby was familiar with Irving and his ideas.
On pages 6-10 & 19-21, Darby referred to Irving, de Lacunza, The Morning Watch, and even quoted some of Irving's works, including his Preliminary Discourse! So, while dispensational concepts may have eventually taken root in Darby's mind, they were not developed by him! He borrowed them from Irving. In 1830, Darby was still
defending historicism against futurism three months after the pre-tribulational “Fidus” article appeared in The Morning Watch. In the December 1830 issue of The Christian Herald, Darby published an article entitled, "On 'Days' Signifying 'Years' in Prophetic Language." Darby defended the standard historicist view, that the 1260 day tribulation meant 1260 years. Consequently, he saw the tribulation as largely past, and could not possibly have been expecting a pre-tribulation rapture, which requires a "futurist" viewpoint. In 1830, J. N. Darby also visited the MacDonald's in Port Glasgow, and observed the strange manifestations in their prayer meetings, as Darby later recalled. Darby described the sequence of events — who prayed, who spoke in tongues, etc. But, while he noted Margaret's speaking, he failed to mention the subject of her prophesying. However, John Cardale, who was also present, wrote that Margaret "commenced also speaking ... gave testimony to the judgments coming on the earth; but also directed the church to the coming of the Lord as her hope of deliverance," and was heard speaking in a loud voice "denouncing the coming judgments."

Therefore, we can conclude that Darby was fully aware that the pre-tribulation rapture was a subject of the prophecies among the MacDonald’s and the Irvingite charismatics. It was nine more years before Darby clearly espoused a pre-tribulation rapture in his published works.

CONCLUDING REMARKS

I have tried to be fair in this short article, attempting to avoid over-reaching the facts or drawing unwarranted conclusions. Yet, the evidence points to an inescapable conclusion. The pre-tribulation rapture view did not grow out of a diligent study of the Scriptures, or revival of early Christian doctrines. Rather, it was birthed from the womb of charismatic excesses, and developed by a preacher known for his heretical views of the person of Christ. Interestingly, Irving’s heresy was precisely the same heresy as many modern self-appointed prophets – that Jesus was a proto-type “Christian,” possessing a fallen sinful nature, and able to live godly only by the power of the indwelling Spirit.

While Irving himself was already developing dispensationalist ideas in 1825, his pre-tribulationism was not the direct outgrowth of the implications of his dispensational leanings. Rather, the secret rapture of the wise virgins first appeared in the visions of Margaret MacDonald, followed by the prophecies among Irving’s congregation. Irving, having been already predisposed to dispensational ideas, simply provided the theological framework for the new revelation of a secret rapture, allegedly revealed by the Holy Spirit. It is clear that Darby was fully aware of the alleged prophecies and visions among the MacDonald’s and Irvingites, Irving's dispensational ideas, and the published articles in The Morning Watch. Darby seems to have given the whole
theory a facelift, disposing of the charismatic connections, and developing Irving’s partial pre-tribulation rapture into the full blown dispensational pre-tribulationism proclaimed today.

As a respectable lawyer and clergyman, Darby was able to sell the new eschatology to the public who would naturally be sceptical of the excesses of the Irvingites. So, while
Darby did not originate the pretribulation rapture idea, he gave it theological respectability, and became its greatest salesman.

Why then are John Darby and the Plymouth Brethren almost universally credited with the development of dispensational pre-tribulationism? The answer is simply that the true origin is being intentionally hidden – the ecstatic visions of Margaret MacDonald, the defrocked Edward Irving, and the excesses and failed prophecies of the Irvingite charismatic cult.

I am indebted to Dave MacPherson whose years of research uncovered the many out of print works cited in this paper, and who graciously provided me with hundreds of pages of photocopies of these works.
 
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BABerean2

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Nice work, Brother.

:oldthumbsup:


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Genesis of Dispensational Theology (on YouTube)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ

Left Behind or Led Astray?
http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/

.
 
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Winken

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Just one problem.......... looking to and listing all those authors bypasses the inescapable Truth found in one source, the Bible. Forget all those "sources." Go to the One Source.
 
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mike van wyk

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Just one problem.......... looking to and listing all those authors bypasses the inescapable Truth found in one source, the Bible. Forget all those "sources." Go to the One Source.
This was only a piece of the candy. The rest is in te Bible that is called the "truth". Check it out.
 
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farout

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By Tim Warner

The story of the development of pre-tribulationism is a tangled one. From its inception in the early 1800s, there has been a deliberate attempt to cover up its origins. And
the cover up continues to this day. This has been perpetrated along two lines of revisionism. One was to hide the real origin of pretribulationism in 19th century Scotland, and attribute it to John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. The other has been a recent attempt to selectively quote and misrepresent ancient Christian documents to make it appear early Christian writers were pre-tribulationists. The purpose of this article is to document a timeline of the major events in the
development of this relatively new prophetic viewpoint.

THE REFORMATION CHURCH
During and after the Protestant Reformation (16th century), Protestant Christians held to what is called “historicism,” a view of prophecy that considers the events of Revelation as occurring all throughout the Church's history. This was supported by employing the “year-day theory” — that the 1260, 1290, & 1335 days mentioned in
Daniel and Revelation should be interpreted as years. It was common for Protestants to identify the Roman Catholic Church with Mystery Babylon, and the papacy with the Antichrist. Since historicists considered the tribulation as encompassing most of the Church age, and viewed themselves as being in the tribulation, they were necessarily post-tribulationists. This view lent itself to a flurry of date-setting in the first half of the 19th century, where the 1260, 1290, & 1335 days (years) were calculated from the Roman Church's rise to supreme power under the Roman Emperors, until the second
coming.

THE RETURN TO PRE-MILLENNIALISM

Morgan Edwards

Morgan Edwards was a Baptist minister in Pennsylvania in the mid-late 1700s. As a teenager and seminary student, Morgan wrote a hypothetical essay as part of his seminary training. Morgan was assigned the task, by his tutor, to write an essay on the Millennium using literal interpretation. In Morgan's hypothetical scenario, he
separated the rapture from the second coming by at least 3.5 years. His work seems to be a mixture of futurism and historicism. And, Morgan contradicted himself and made many obvious errors. Yet, his work appears to be the very first time the rapture was separated from the second coming of Christ. Many years later (1788), Morgan
published his essay in a book. While Morgan Edwards is sometimes cited as a pre-tribulationist, his work indicates that he did not wish to be seen as a literalist, and was content with the typical historicist view of the times. He insisted that his work was purely hypothetical. Furthermore, there is no apparent connection between Morgan Edwards’ essay and modern pre-tribulationism. Morgan's later works do not display pre-tribulationist thinking. We must look elsewhere for the origins of modern pre-tribulationism.

Father Manuel de Lacunza

Fr. Manuel de Lacunza was a Roman Catholic Jesuit priest, born in Chilli in 1731, and sent to Spain at the young age of 15 to become a Jesuit priest. When the Jesuits were
expelled from Spain in 1767, Fr. Lacunza moved to Italy. In 1790, he wrote a book on prophecy, called The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, which was published in
Spain in 1812. Fr. Lacunza wrote under the pen name, Juan Josafat Ben-Ezra (a converted Jew), allegedly to avoid detection since his book ended up on Rome's
banned books list. Fr. Lacunza's book promoted a return to the literal interpretation of Old Testament prophecy, and the primitive futurist view of Revelation. He rejected the
“year-day theory” of the historicists. Consequently, he saw a personal Antichrist and future tribulation of 1260 days, followed by the second coming of the Lord. He did not
espouse a pre-tribulation rapture.

Edward Irving

Edward Irving was the pastor of a Church of Scotland(Presbyterian) congregation in London in the 1820s. Irving became aware of Fr. Lacunza's book, and was so impressed with it; he took it upon himself to translate it into English, adding a lengthy Preliminary Discourse of his own. Irving's English translation was published in 1827. Irving's developing prophetic views can be clearly discerned from his Preliminary Discourse, including, surprisingly, all the key elements of dispensationalism that later showed up in Darby's writings, Irving indicated that he had been teaching these things to his congregation beginning in Christmas 1825, several years before Darby embraced dispensational ideas. Irving strongly denounced the apostasy of the Christian denominations in his preaching. He proclaimed that God was about to restore Apostles and prophets to the Church in the last days, and that a great Pentecostal outpouring would come just before the soon return of Jesus Christ. Right on schedule, rumours of healings, tongues, visions, and other manifestations began circulating in Port Glasgow, Scotland, from the home of James and George MacDonald and their sister Margaret. People came from England, Ireland, and Scotland to observe the strange manifestations in the prayer meetings held by the

MacDonald’s.

The “revival” quickly spread to Irving's church, with tongues, prophecy, and other manifestations breaking out. Irving was eventually defrocked by the Church of Scotland because of the strange goings on, and his heretical views of the person of Christ, (he taught that Jesus had a fallen human nature). So, Irving moved his congregation to a rented hall, forming the Catholic Apostolic Church. Not only were tongues, prophetic revelations, and other alleged miracles occurring in Irving's congregation, but these ecstatic utterances focused on end-time prophecy concerning the coming of the Lord.

Margaret MacDonald’s Visions – March, 1830

In March or April of 1830, after being ill and bed-ridden for about 18 months, Margaret MacDonald claimed to have seen a series of visions. She wrote down these visions in a series of letters, and sent copies to Edward Irving. A month later (June), Irving claimed in a private letter, that Margaret's visions had a huge impact on him: "the substance of Mary Campbell's and Margaret MacDonald's visions or revelations, given in their papers, carry to me a spiritual conviction and a spiritual reproof which I cannot express." The outstanding feature of Margaret's visions was an outpouring of the Holy Spirit on an elite group within Christianity, just prior to the coming of Antichrist. She saw only “Spirit filled” Christians being caught up to meet Jesus in the air, which she identified as the five “wise virgins” of Jesus’ parable in Matthew 25. The rest of
Christianity, the “foolish virgins,” would be left to be purged and purified by suffering at the hands of the Antichrist, until they were fit to be with the Lord.

The Morning Watch – September 1830

The official quarterly publication of the Irvingite charismatics was called, "The Morning Watch." It had exclusively promoted a post tribulation second coming through mid-1830. But, the September 1830 issue featured part two of an article by someone named, “Fidus,” promoting the theory, that the seven letters in Revelation, describe seven consecutive “Church Ages”. In this article, Fidus articulated the new idea of a partial Pre-tribulation rapture. He saw the Philadelphian (Spirit filled) church being raptured prior to the tribulation, and the Laodicean church representing the rest of Christianity. The Morning Watch was quickly becoming the vehicle for providing a biblical basis for Margaret MacDonald’s pre-tribulation rapture of “Spirit filled” Christians.

The Morning Watch – June, 1831

In the June 1831 issue of The Morning Watch, Edward Irving made his pre-tribulationism crystal clear. His biblical support for the elite “Spirit-filled” believers being raptured before the tribulation was the catching up of the “manchild” in Revelation 12. Irving argued that the body of Christ has been "united to Him by regeneration of the Holy Ghost, 'born of God, sons of God,' (Rev. II.27; XII.5). And therefore we with him are called Christ (1 Cor. XII. 12)." Irving went on to say that, "with this key [that Spirit filled Christians are also “Christ,” and that the catching up of the “man child” refers to the rapture of Spirit-filled believers] the Old Testament prophecies which speak of Christ must be interpreted, and especially those prophecies which speak of the pregnant woman: to all which an explicit key is given to us in the xiith chapter of Revelation; where, though the child is spoken of as one (ver. 5), it is also described as many (ver.11), who overcame the accuser; and when that number is
accomplished, there are still a remnant of her seed, whom the dragon doth persecute and seek to destroy (ver. 17). This two-fold company – the one gathered before, and the other after the travailing woman are cast out into the wilderness... – do together constitute the New Jerusalem, the bride of the Lamb, which cometh down from heaven." (pp. 301-302).

The Morning Watch – December, 1832

An anonymous writer in the December 1832 (p. 249) issue of The Morning Watch likely referred to Margaret MacDonald's letters (and probably her friend Mary
Campbell & Emily Cardale of London) with the following words; "The Spirit of God has caused several young women, in different parts of Great Britain, to condense into a few broken sentences more and deeper theology than ever Vaughan, Chalmers, or Irving uttered in their longest sermons; and therefore more than all the rest of the Evangelical pulpits ever put forth in the whole course of their existence."

Robert Baxter (1833)

British Lawyer, Robert Baxter, was an early member of the Irvingite charismatics. Baxter had previously been a post-tribulationist, but eventually adopted the
pre-tribulation rapture views of Irving. He, along with several other “prophets” of the Catholic Apostolic Church, gave many prophecies, all of which failed. He later became disillusioned with the whole movement, and abandoned Irvingism (and pre-tribulationism). Upon his departure, he wrote an expose of Irvingism, called
Narrative of Facts, Characterizing the Supernatural Manifestations in Members of Mr. Irving's Congregation (1833), including Irving's early pre-tribulation teachings. "An opinion had been advanced in some of Mr. Irving's writings, that before the second
coming of Christ, and before the setting in upon the world of the day of vengeance, emphatically so called in the Scriptures, the saints would be caught up to heaven like
Enoch and Elijah; and would be thus saved from the destruction of this world, as Noah was saved in the ark, and Lot was saved from Sodom." Baxter wrote that the coming of the Lord was the main topic of the prophetic utterances in Irving's congregation. Looking back, he thought they had all been deceived by lying spirits pretending to be the Holy Spirit.



Robert Norton (1861)

Robert Norton was the author of "The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets in the Catholic Apostolic Church" (1861). Norton took a favourable view of the Irvingite
movement, writing in the preface that his book was offered "as proofs or illustrations of its heavenly origin and character." Norton named Margaret MacDonald as the first
to proclaim the “new doctrine” of a pretribulation rapture, which was picked up by Edward Irving.

Samuel P. Tregelles (1855/1864)

Samuel P. Tregelles was the most eminent Plymouth Brethren scholar of the 19th century, with first hand knowledge of the Irvingites. In an 1855 article in The
Christian Annotator, Tregelles wrote that the true Christian hope is the final “advent” and "not some secret advent, or secret rapture to the Lord, as Judaizers supposed might be the case..." (A later Plymouth Brethren writer, William Kelly, also identified the Irvingites as the “Judaizers”). Nine years later, Tregelles published "The Hope of Christ's Second Coming," in which he wrote: “But when the theory of a secret coming of Christ was first brought forward (about the year 1832), it was adopted with eagerness: … I am not aware that there was any definite teaching that there would be a secret rapture of the Church at a secret coming, until this was given forth as an "utterance" in Mr. Irving’s Church, from what was there received as being the voice of the Spirit. But whether any one ever asserted such a thing or not, it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology
respecting it arose. It came not from Holy Scripture, but from that which falsely pretended to be the Spirit of God, while not owning the true doctrine of our Lord’s
incarnation in the same flesh and blood as His brethren, but without taint of sin.”
The last statement, “not owning the true doctrine of our Lord’s incarnation … without taint of sin,” referred to the Irvingite cult’s heretical view of the person of Christ, and
to the Apostle John’s test that any spirit not acknowledging the true doctrine of the incarnation was of “the spirit of antichrist,” (1 John 4:1-3).

John Nelson Darby

The Irish lawyer, John Nelson Darby, one of the founders of the Plymouth Brethren, is typically credited by pre-tribulationists as the man who “revived” dispensational pre-tribulationism. Yet it is clear that Darby was a latecomer to pre-tribulationism, which originated among the Irvingites. Darby wrote his first prophecy paper in 1829.
In this paper, he clearly did not have dispensationalist or pre-tribulationist views. Darby argued that unfulfilled Old Testament prophecy concerning the restoration of Israel
should be applied to the Church, the typical historicist – amillennial point of view. He also placed the Church on earth until Armageddon, showing he was still a post-tribulationist. By this time, dispensationalist ideas were already well developed in Irving's 1826 Preliminary Discourse. Darby was familiar with Irving and his ideas.
On pages 6-10 & 19-21, Darby referred to Irving, de Lacunza, The Morning Watch, and even quoted some of Irving's works, including his Preliminary Discourse! So, while dispensational concepts may have eventually taken root in Darby's mind, they were not developed by him! He borrowed them from Irving. In 1830, Darby was still
defending historicism against futurism three months after the pre-tribulational “Fidus” article appeared in The Morning Watch. In the December 1830 issue of The Christian Herald, Darby published an article entitled, "On 'Days' Signifying 'Years' in Prophetic Language." Darby defended the standard historicist view, that the 1260 day tribulation meant 1260 years. Consequently, he saw the tribulation as largely past, and could not possibly have been expecting a pre-tribulation rapture, which requires a "futurist" viewpoint. In 1830, J. N. Darby also visited the MacDonald's in Port Glasgow, and observed the strange manifestations in their prayer meetings, as Darby later recalled. Darby described the sequence of events — who prayed, who spoke in tongues, etc. But, while he noted Margaret's speaking, he failed to mention the subject of her prophesying. However, John Cardale, who was also present, wrote that Margaret "commenced also speaking ... gave testimony to the judgments coming on the earth; but also directed the church to the coming of the Lord as her hope of deliverance," and was heard speaking in a loud voice "denouncing the coming judgments."

Therefore, we can conclude that Darby was fully aware that the pre-tribulation rapture was a subject of the prophecies among the MacDonald’s and the Irvingite charismatics. It was nine more years before Darby clearly espoused a pre-tribulation rapture in his published works.

CONCLUDING REMARKS

I have tried to be fair in this short article, attempting to avoid over-reaching the facts or drawing unwarranted conclusions. Yet, the evidence points to an inescapable conclusion. The pre-tribulation rapture view did not grow out of a diligent study of the Scriptures, or revival of early Christian doctrines. Rather, it was birthed from the womb of charismatic excesses, and developed by a preacher known for his heretical views of the person of Christ. Interestingly, Irving’s heresy was precisely the same heresy as many modern self-appointed prophets – that Jesus was a proto-type “Christian,” possessing a fallen sinful nature, and able to live godly only by the power of the indwelling Spirit.

While Irving himself was already developing dispensationalist ideas in 1825, his pre-tribulationism was not the direct outgrowth of the implications of his dispensational leanings. Rather, the secret rapture of the wise virgins first appeared in the visions of Margaret MacDonald, followed by the prophecies among Irving’s congregation. Irving, having been already predisposed to dispensational ideas, simply provided the theological framework for the new revelation of a secret rapture, allegedly revealed by the Holy Spirit. It is clear that Darby was fully aware of the alleged prophecies and visions among the MacDonald’s and Irvingites, Irving's dispensational ideas, and the published articles in The Morning Watch. Darby seems to have given the whole
theory a facelift, disposing of the charismatic connections, and developing Irving’s partial pre-tribulation rapture into the full blown dispensational pre-tribulationism proclaimed today.

As a respectable lawyer and clergyman, Darby was able to sell the new eschatology to the public who would naturally be sceptical of the excesses of the Irvingites. So, while
Darby did not originate the pretribulation rapture idea, he gave it theological respectability, and became its greatest salesman.

Why then are John Darby and the Plymouth Brethren almost universally credited with the development of dispensational pre-tribulationism? The answer is simply that the true origin is being intentionally hidden – the ecstatic visions of Margaret MacDonald, the defrocked Edward Irving, and the excesses and failed prophecies of the Irvingite charismatic cult.

I am indebted to Dave MacPherson whose years of research uncovered the many out of print works cited in this paper, and who graciously provided me with hundreds of pages of photocopies of these works.


You have missed a lot, way before that ! It goes back to even 300 ad. But sense you have repeated so much then dig even deeper, and then report back. This report has been available for a long time. I suggest that no one take the word of anyone, but search the Scriptures for YOURSELF. If you are a thinking person start with Matthew 24 and move on from there. See for your self what the Bible teaches. I have long disfavored Darby, Schofield and others. But become a real student of scriptures. But several books on the end times. Have your Bible open and ask the Lord to guide you. Write what Matthew says down one important fact at a time. After a while you will most likely begin to see your own opinion begin to form.
 
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By Tim Warner

The story of the development of pre-tribulationism is a tangled one. From its inception in the early 1800s, there has been a deliberate attempt to cover up its origins. And
the cover up continues to this day. This has been perpetrated along two lines of revisionism. One was to hide the real origin of pretribulationism in 19th century Scotland, and attribute it to John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. The other has been a recent attempt to selectively quote and misrepresent ancient Christian documents to make it appear early Christian writers were pre-tribulationists. The purpose of this article is to document a timeline of the major events in the
development of this relatively new prophetic viewpoint.

THE REFORMATION CHURCH
During and after the Protestant Reformation (16th century), Protestant Christians held to what is called “historicism,” a view of prophecy that considers the events of Revelation as occurring all throughout the Church's history. This was supported by employing the “year-day theory” — that the 1260, 1290, & 1335 days mentioned in
Daniel and Revelation should be interpreted as years. It was common for Protestants to identify the Roman Catholic Church with Mystery Babylon, and the papacy with the Antichrist. Since historicists considered the tribulation as encompassing most of the Church age, and viewed themselves as being in the tribulation, they were necessarily post-tribulationists. This view lent itself to a flurry of date-setting in the first half of the 19th century, where the 1260, 1290, & 1335 days (years) were calculated from the Roman Church's rise to supreme power under the Roman Emperors, until the second
coming.

THE RETURN TO PRE-MILLENNIALISM

Morgan Edwards

Morgan Edwards was a Baptist minister in Pennsylvania in the mid-late 1700s. As a teenager and seminary student, Morgan wrote a hypothetical essay as part of his seminary training. Morgan was assigned the task, by his tutor, to write an essay on the Millennium using literal interpretation. In Morgan's hypothetical scenario, he
separated the rapture from the second coming by at least 3.5 years. His work seems to be a mixture of futurism and historicism. And, Morgan contradicted himself and made many obvious errors. Yet, his work appears to be the very first time the rapture was separated from the second coming of Christ. Many years later (1788), Morgan
published his essay in a book. While Morgan Edwards is sometimes cited as a pre-tribulationist, his work indicates that he did not wish to be seen as a literalist, and was content with the typical historicist view of the times. He insisted that his work was purely hypothetical. Furthermore, there is no apparent connection between Morgan Edwards’ essay and modern pre-tribulationism. Morgan's later works do not display pre-tribulationist thinking. We must look elsewhere for the origins of modern pre-tribulationism.

Father Manuel de Lacunza

Fr. Manuel de Lacunza was a Roman Catholic Jesuit priest, born in Chilli in 1731, and sent to Spain at the young age of 15 to become a Jesuit priest. When the Jesuits were
expelled from Spain in 1767, Fr. Lacunza moved to Italy. In 1790, he wrote a book on prophecy, called The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, which was published in
Spain in 1812. Fr. Lacunza wrote under the pen name, Juan Josafat Ben-Ezra (a converted Jew), allegedly to avoid detection since his book ended up on Rome's
banned books list. Fr. Lacunza's book promoted a return to the literal interpretation of Old Testament prophecy, and the primitive futurist view of Revelation. He rejected the
“year-day theory” of the historicists. Consequently, he saw a personal Antichrist and future tribulation of 1260 days, followed by the second coming of the Lord. He did not
espouse a pre-tribulation rapture.

Edward Irving

Edward Irving was the pastor of a Church of Scotland(Presbyterian) congregation in London in the 1820s. Irving became aware of Fr. Lacunza's book, and was so impressed with it; he took it upon himself to translate it into English, adding a lengthy Preliminary Discourse of his own. Irving's English translation was published in 1827. Irving's developing prophetic views can be clearly discerned from his Preliminary Discourse, including, surprisingly, all the key elements of dispensationalism that later showed up in Darby's writings, Irving indicated that he had been teaching these things to his congregation beginning in Christmas 1825, several years before Darby embraced dispensational ideas. Irving strongly denounced the apostasy of the Christian denominations in his preaching. He proclaimed that God was about to restore Apostles and prophets to the Church in the last days, and that a great Pentecostal outpouring would come just before the soon return of Jesus Christ. Right on schedule, rumours of healings, tongues, visions, and other manifestations began circulating in Port Glasgow, Scotland, from the home of James and George MacDonald and their sister Margaret. People came from England, Ireland, and Scotland to observe the strange manifestations in the prayer meetings held by the

MacDonald’s.

The “revival” quickly spread to Irving's church, with tongues, prophecy, and other manifestations breaking out. Irving was eventually defrocked by the Church of Scotland because of the strange goings on, and his heretical views of the person of Christ, (he taught that Jesus had a fallen human nature). So, Irving moved his congregation to a rented hall, forming the Catholic Apostolic Church. Not only were tongues, prophetic revelations, and other alleged miracles occurring in Irving's congregation, but these ecstatic utterances focused on end-time prophecy concerning the coming of the Lord.

Margaret MacDonald’s Visions – March, 1830

In March or April of 1830, after being ill and bed-ridden for about 18 months, Margaret MacDonald claimed to have seen a series of visions. She wrote down these visions in a series of letters, and sent copies to Edward Irving. A month later (June), Irving claimed in a private letter, that Margaret's visions had a huge impact on him: "the substance of Mary Campbell's and Margaret MacDonald's visions or revelations, given in their papers, carry to me a spiritual conviction and a spiritual reproof which I cannot express." The outstanding feature of Margaret's visions was an outpouring of the Holy Spirit on an elite group within Christianity, just prior to the coming of Antichrist. She saw only “Spirit filled” Christians being caught up to meet Jesus in the air, which she identified as the five “wise virgins” of Jesus’ parable in Matthew 25. The rest of
Christianity, the “foolish virgins,” would be left to be purged and purified by suffering at the hands of the Antichrist, until they were fit to be with the Lord.

The Morning Watch – September 1830

The official quarterly publication of the Irvingite charismatics was called, "The Morning Watch." It had exclusively promoted a post tribulation second coming through mid-1830. But, the September 1830 issue featured part two of an article by someone named, “Fidus,” promoting the theory, that the seven letters in Revelation, describe seven consecutive “Church Ages”. In this article, Fidus articulated the new idea of a partial Pre-tribulation rapture. He saw the Philadelphian (Spirit filled) church being raptured prior to the tribulation, and the Laodicean church representing the rest of Christianity. The Morning Watch was quickly becoming the vehicle for providing a biblical basis for Margaret MacDonald’s pre-tribulation rapture of “Spirit filled” Christians.

The Morning Watch – June, 1831

In the June 1831 issue of The Morning Watch, Edward Irving made his pre-tribulationism crystal clear. His biblical support for the elite “Spirit-filled” believers being raptured before the tribulation was the catching up of the “manchild” in Revelation 12. Irving argued that the body of Christ has been "united to Him by regeneration of the Holy Ghost, 'born of God, sons of God,' (Rev. II.27; XII.5). And therefore we with him are called Christ (1 Cor. XII. 12)." Irving went on to say that, "with this key [that Spirit filled Christians are also “Christ,” and that the catching up of the “man child” refers to the rapture of Spirit-filled believers] the Old Testament prophecies which speak of Christ must be interpreted, and especially those prophecies which speak of the pregnant woman: to all which an explicit key is given to us in the xiith chapter of Revelation; where, though the child is spoken of as one (ver. 5), it is also described as many (ver.11), who overcame the accuser; and when that number is
accomplished, there are still a remnant of her seed, whom the dragon doth persecute and seek to destroy (ver. 17). This two-fold company – the one gathered before, and the other after the travailing woman are cast out into the wilderness... – do together constitute the New Jerusalem, the bride of the Lamb, which cometh down from heaven." (pp. 301-302).

The Morning Watch – December, 1832

An anonymous writer in the December 1832 (p. 249) issue of The Morning Watch likely referred to Margaret MacDonald's letters (and probably her friend Mary
Campbell & Emily Cardale of London) with the following words; "The Spirit of God has caused several young women, in different parts of Great Britain, to condense into a few broken sentences more and deeper theology than ever Vaughan, Chalmers, or Irving uttered in their longest sermons; and therefore more than all the rest of the Evangelical pulpits ever put forth in the whole course of their existence."

Robert Baxter (1833)

British Lawyer, Robert Baxter, was an early member of the Irvingite charismatics. Baxter had previously been a post-tribulationist, but eventually adopted the
pre-tribulation rapture views of Irving. He, along with several other “prophets” of the Catholic Apostolic Church, gave many prophecies, all of which failed. He later became disillusioned with the whole movement, and abandoned Irvingism (and pre-tribulationism). Upon his departure, he wrote an expose of Irvingism, called
Narrative of Facts, Characterizing the Supernatural Manifestations in Members of Mr. Irving's Congregation (1833), including Irving's early pre-tribulation teachings. "An opinion had been advanced in some of Mr. Irving's writings, that before the second
coming of Christ, and before the setting in upon the world of the day of vengeance, emphatically so called in the Scriptures, the saints would be caught up to heaven like
Enoch and Elijah; and would be thus saved from the destruction of this world, as Noah was saved in the ark, and Lot was saved from Sodom." Baxter wrote that the coming of the Lord was the main topic of the prophetic utterances in Irving's congregation. Looking back, he thought they had all been deceived by lying spirits pretending to be the Holy Spirit.



Robert Norton (1861)

Robert Norton was the author of "The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets in the Catholic Apostolic Church" (1861). Norton took a favourable view of the Irvingite
movement, writing in the preface that his book was offered "as proofs or illustrations of its heavenly origin and character." Norton named Margaret MacDonald as the first
to proclaim the “new doctrine” of a pretribulation rapture, which was picked up by Edward Irving.

Samuel P. Tregelles (1855/1864)

Samuel P. Tregelles was the most eminent Plymouth Brethren scholar of the 19th century, with first hand knowledge of the Irvingites. In an 1855 article in The
Christian Annotator, Tregelles wrote that the true Christian hope is the final “advent” and "not some secret advent, or secret rapture to the Lord, as Judaizers supposed might be the case..." (A later Plymouth Brethren writer, William Kelly, also identified the Irvingites as the “Judaizers”). Nine years later, Tregelles published "The Hope of Christ's Second Coming," in which he wrote: “But when the theory of a secret coming of Christ was first brought forward (about the year 1832), it was adopted with eagerness: … I am not aware that there was any definite teaching that there would be a secret rapture of the Church at a secret coming, until this was given forth as an "utterance" in Mr. Irving’s Church, from what was there received as being the voice of the Spirit. But whether any one ever asserted such a thing or not, it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology
respecting it arose. It came not from Holy Scripture, but from that which falsely pretended to be the Spirit of God, while not owning the true doctrine of our Lord’s
incarnation in the same flesh and blood as His brethren, but without taint of sin.”
The last statement, “not owning the true doctrine of our Lord’s incarnation … without taint of sin,” referred to the Irvingite cult’s heretical view of the person of Christ, and
to the Apostle John’s test that any spirit not acknowledging the true doctrine of the incarnation was of “the spirit of antichrist,” (1 John 4:1-3).

John Nelson Darby

The Irish lawyer, John Nelson Darby, one of the founders of the Plymouth Brethren, is typically credited by pre-tribulationists as the man who “revived” dispensational pre-tribulationism. Yet it is clear that Darby was a latecomer to pre-tribulationism, which originated among the Irvingites. Darby wrote his first prophecy paper in 1829.
In this paper, he clearly did not have dispensationalist or pre-tribulationist views. Darby argued that unfulfilled Old Testament prophecy concerning the restoration of Israel
should be applied to the Church, the typical historicist – amillennial point of view. He also placed the Church on earth until Armageddon, showing he was still a post-tribulationist. By this time, dispensationalist ideas were already well developed in Irving's 1826 Preliminary Discourse. Darby was familiar with Irving and his ideas.
On pages 6-10 & 19-21, Darby referred to Irving, de Lacunza, The Morning Watch, and even quoted some of Irving's works, including his Preliminary Discourse! So, while dispensational concepts may have eventually taken root in Darby's mind, they were not developed by him! He borrowed them from Irving. In 1830, Darby was still
defending historicism against futurism three months after the pre-tribulational “Fidus” article appeared in The Morning Watch. In the December 1830 issue of The Christian Herald, Darby published an article entitled, "On 'Days' Signifying 'Years' in Prophetic Language." Darby defended the standard historicist view, that the 1260 day tribulation meant 1260 years. Consequently, he saw the tribulation as largely past, and could not possibly have been expecting a pre-tribulation rapture, which requires a "futurist" viewpoint. In 1830, J. N. Darby also visited the MacDonald's in Port Glasgow, and observed the strange manifestations in their prayer meetings, as Darby later recalled. Darby described the sequence of events — who prayed, who spoke in tongues, etc. But, while he noted Margaret's speaking, he failed to mention the subject of her prophesying. However, John Cardale, who was also present, wrote that Margaret "commenced also speaking ... gave testimony to the judgments coming on the earth; but also directed the church to the coming of the Lord as her hope of deliverance," and was heard speaking in a loud voice "denouncing the coming judgments."

Therefore, we can conclude that Darby was fully aware that the pre-tribulation rapture was a subject of the prophecies among the MacDonald’s and the Irvingite charismatics. It was nine more years before Darby clearly espoused a pre-tribulation rapture in his published works.

CONCLUDING REMARKS

I have tried to be fair in this short article, attempting to avoid over-reaching the facts or drawing unwarranted conclusions. Yet, the evidence points to an inescapable conclusion. The pre-tribulation rapture view did not grow out of a diligent study of the Scriptures, or revival of early Christian doctrines. Rather, it was birthed from the womb of charismatic excesses, and developed by a preacher known for his heretical views of the person of Christ. Interestingly, Irving’s heresy was precisely the same heresy as many modern self-appointed prophets – that Jesus was a proto-type “Christian,” possessing a fallen sinful nature, and able to live godly only by the power of the indwelling Spirit.

While Irving himself was already developing dispensationalist ideas in 1825, his pre-tribulationism was not the direct outgrowth of the implications of his dispensational leanings. Rather, the secret rapture of the wise virgins first appeared in the visions of Margaret MacDonald, followed by the prophecies among Irving’s congregation. Irving, having been already predisposed to dispensational ideas, simply provided the theological framework for the new revelation of a secret rapture, allegedly revealed by the Holy Spirit. It is clear that Darby was fully aware of the alleged prophecies and visions among the MacDonald’s and Irvingites, Irving's dispensational ideas, and the published articles in The Morning Watch. Darby seems to have given the whole
theory a facelift, disposing of the charismatic connections, and developing Irving’s partial pre-tribulation rapture into the full blown dispensational pre-tribulationism proclaimed today.

As a respectable lawyer and clergyman, Darby was able to sell the new eschatology to the public who would naturally be sceptical of the excesses of the Irvingites. So, while
Darby did not originate the pretribulation rapture idea, he gave it theological respectability, and became its greatest salesman.

Why then are John Darby and the Plymouth Brethren almost universally credited with the development of dispensational pre-tribulationism? The answer is simply that the true origin is being intentionally hidden – the ecstatic visions of Margaret MacDonald, the defrocked Edward Irving, and the excesses and failed prophecies of the Irvingite charismatic cult.

I am indebted to Dave MacPherson whose years of research uncovered the many out of print works cited in this paper, and who graciously provided me with hundreds of pages of photocopies of these works.

The bible is the best and true source, not youtube videos.

It was taught as early as 740-680 BC when Isaiah wrote his prophetic book. It happens before the tribulation.


Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1 (NKJV)
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.


1 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.











.
 
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mike van wyk

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The bible is the best and true source, not youtube videos.

It was taught as early as 740-680 BC when Isaiah wrote his prophetic book. It happens before the tribulation.


Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1 (NKJV)
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.


1 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.











.
Thanks for your time you spend with me, i'm going away for some time...may God bless you and keep you till we meet again.
NB! Please do not respond to this post.
 
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BABerean2

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Just one problem.......... looking to and listing all those authors bypasses the inescapable Truth found in one source, the Bible. Forget all those "sources." Go to the One Source.

Great idea.
Let us look at the text.


When the Apostle Paul wrote his first letter to Thessalonian church, there were no chapters or verses.
They were added much later as an aid to study scripture.

The same thought is continuous from the end of chapter 4 through the beginning of chapter 5.

The end of chapter 4 is a description of the event, while chapter 5 provides the timing of the event.

There is no 7 year stay in heaven within the text. It must be imported from elsewhere to get John Darby's doctrine to work.



1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
(The word "asleep" or "sleep" in the passage is used as a metaphor to describe dead Christians.)


1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
(The word "But" connects chapter 5 to the end of chapter 4 above.)

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
(This verse provides the timing for the resurrection event in chapter 4 on the "Day of the Lord", which is found in 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, at the Second Coming or Greek "Parousia" of Christ.)


1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
(It will not come as a thief to Christians and would therefore would make a bad movie title...)


1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
(Christ took our wrath at the Cross. There are those who claim the whole tribulation period is "God's Wrath" in an effort to make John Darby's doctrine work. However, the Greek words for "wrath" and "tribulation" are different and Revelation 12:12 says at least part of it is Satan's wrath. Based on Revelation 11:18, God pours out His wrath and the judgment of the dead occurs after the 7th trumpet at Revelation 11:15.)


1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
(The word "sleep" here ties this whole passage to the event in chapter 4.)

There is no 7 year stay in heaven within this passage, because it does not exist.

It exists only in the minds of those trained to accept John Darby's doctrine, because they did not find it in the One Source, which is God's Word...
.



 
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BABerean2

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When faced with the pretrib challenge, all we get is silence...

It is amazing how a doctrine from 1830 has spread like a virus through the evangelical Church and those sitting in the pews have no idea where the doctrine came from.

It also seems that those who do know where it came from, would rather not talk about it.

Many will claim they found it just by reading their Bibles and seem unconscious of the fact that they have been spoon-feed the doctrine since their childhood...

.
 
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Winken

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When faced with the pretrib challenge, all we get is silence...

It is amazing how a doctrine from 1830 has spread like a virus through the evangelical Church and those sitting in the pews have no idea where the doctrine came from.

It also seems that those who do know where it came from, would rather not talk about it.

Many will claim they found it just by reading their Bibles and seem unconscious of the fact that they have been spoon-feed the doctrine since their childhood...

.

We'd love to talk about it, but this is post-trib only. There are countless threads debating this .... really just grab coke or coffee & sandwich, sit back and read them.
 
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BABerean2

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We'd love to talk about it, but this is post-trib only. There are countless threads debating this .... really just grab coke or coffee & sandwich, sit back and read them.

The new TAG system is an impediment to finding the truth.
I was against it from the start.
Let me see if I can start a new thread that will allow interaction and we can give it a go...

.
 
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BABerean2

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The Pretrib Rapture is a necessity to modern Dispensational Theology in order that God can have a do-over with the modern descendants of Jacob.

Those promoting classic Dispensational Theology tell us the Age of Grace will end, even though we find those under the Blood of the Lamb at Revelation 12:11.

They claim God will go back to dealing with the modern nation of Israel under the "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) Sinai covenant for a 7 year period before the Second Coming, even though the New Blood Covenant of Christ is everlasting (Hebrews 12:24, 13:20).

Also, the Apostle Paul makes it clear in Galatians 1:6-9 that there is only one Gospel.

The Church is not a parenthesis in God's Plan. The Church is the Plan.

In Romans chapter 11, the Apostle Paul makes it clear that salvation only comes by being grafted into the Olive tree, which is a symbol of the New Blood Covenant Church.

Once one realizes that the covenant in Romans 11:27 is the New Blood Covenant of Christ "now" in effect (Hebrews 8:6), modern Dispensational Theology crumbles into pieces.


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Biblewriter

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The new TAG system is an impediment to finding the truth.
I was against it from the start.
Let me see if I can start a new thread that will allow interaction and we can give it a go...

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I have already done this, in a new thread titled:
A Short History of the Doctrine of a Rapture before the Great Tribulation
This thread demonstrates the complete falsehood of the claims about pre-trib starting with Irving's heretical sect.

I also plan to shortly post a thread proving that Futurism and a literal interpretation of prophecy did not begin with Lacunza. And that dispensationalism was already taught before Irving started to preach it.
 
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BABerean2

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I have already done this, in a new thread titled:
A Short History of the Doctrine of a Rapture before the Great Tribulation
This thread demonstrates the complete falsehood of the claims about pre-trib starting with Irving's heretical sect.

I also plan to shortly post a thread proving that Futurism and a literal interpretation of prophecy did not begin with Lacunza. And that dispensationalism was already taught before Irving started to preach it.

You are correct. It started with Francisco Ribera, closer to the time of the Council of Trent, as a product of the Counter-Reformation.

Lacunza was mainly following the earlier work of Ribera.
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Biblewriter

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Did Irenaeus teach that the Church would end 7 years before the Second Coming?
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No. Although he taught that the church would be "suddenly caught up" before the great tribulation, he thought this would last three and a half years.
 
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BABerean2

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No. Although he taught that the church would be "suddenly caught up" before the great tribulation, he thought this would last three and a half years.

He got the 3 1/2 years part right and if he was speaking of the tribulation from the wrath of God poured out on the unbelievers at the 7th trumpet, as I suspect he was speaking of, he would be correct there also.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

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