The Origin of Evil

[Kangaroo Hopscotch]

Hello, I have a large question pertaining to the origin of evil. I am not asking for the origin of sin, but rather what sin came from.

In order for sin to exist in a universe created by an omnipotent being such as God, who is entirely Good, there would be no trace of Evil anywhere within the universe.

Now I know that many people would argue and say that Lucifer, the Angel of Light, is the harbinger of sin and that he got such an infamous position by rebelling against God. But therein lies the problem. In order for Lucifer to rebel against God, he would have to have been motivated by a force not of this universe, with the power to rival the very Creator of the universe.

In fact, for any evils of the world to exist, they would have had to be created by a force who is the very anti-thesis of God. A godlike being, composed entirely of evil, the creator of Death? For as it is, God, who is Good, could not have been the purveyor of Death and Destruction, nor even of all the ills of mankind. The fact is, with the intricacy of the evils of Man, they would have had to have been created by a vile being without even a trace of Good.

As it is, Revelations speaks of a place known as the Abyss. Nowhere else in the Bible is the word abyss given such significance. There is one brief mention of throwing people into the abyss in Psalms, but the Psalmist did not seem to refer to it as a place, whereas John does. Not only this, but from the Abyss rises an angel, never before heard of in any Scripture. In Greek he is Apollyon, the angel of destruction, but in Hebrew he is Abaddon, the angel of death.

With God being Good, there is no possibility of this angel being a creation of God. As such, its only possible origin would be an evil being, separate of God.

So the real question is this: Is it possible that Evil is as old as God?

 

[IreneAdler]

honestly? I think good can't exist without evil. (i.e. it's hard to be what you are without something for comparison)

now, how exactly do you define evil? sin?

 

[Kangaroo Hopscotch]

Sin is the act of evil. What I'm wondering is what the force behind it is, and where it came from since God cannot be the Creator of Evil.

 

[IreneAdler]

sin is the act of missing the mark. sin can even be a mistake. what differentiates someone who say... tells a white lie from BTK?

 

[Kangaroo Hopscotch]

That's not really what I'm getting at. What is the origin of all Evil?

 

[IreneAdler]

I'm trying to get there. I'm not sure God is just good. I think God chooses to be good and has always and is perfect in that way. I think the idea of evil is well, abstract. Anything that causes harm must not be a positive thing, and is thus evil. It's a perception.

 

[Kangaroo Hopscotch]

So opposing God would not be evil? It's just his view of things?

Sorry, I just don't believe that.

 

[IreneAdler]

I honestly don't believe there's some great lurking evil out in the world. Sorry. I think we're just our own evil because we choose bad things, things that are harmful, because we have free choice. But I'll leave you alone since you're not interested. Been fun.

 

[Kangaroo Hopscotch]

So there is no lion roaming about, seeking whom he may devour...

Awesome...

 

[yashua1970]

That's not really what I'm getting at. What is the origin of all Evil?

God is the origin of evil, the proof is in the bible where God states:

Is. 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

But for some strange reason people who "believe" in the bible do not believe what the bible states about God being the author of Evil.

GOD THE CREATOR OF EVIL​

“That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I made peace [good], and create evil: I the Lord do all these things” (Isa. 45:6-7).
​

Notice that God did not create light to shine IN the darkness. No, God “created” darkness, itself. Darkness is not just the absence of light. Darkness was created by God. It does not “naturally” exist independent of His creating it. This, like everything else in the Bible, is a parable. Mankind is spiritually in “darkness.” And it is a very painful thing to come out.

“For God, Who commanded the light to shine out of darkness [not ‘in’ darkness], has shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.” (II Cor. 4:6).
​

Before we go further, it is necessary for those who have never seen it proven, that it is God Who is the Creator, User, and unltimately, the Destroyer of evil.


The Hebrew ra means “bad or evil” and it is used over four hundred times to represent bad or evil, not calamity.
God created ra—EVIL. Furthermore God used evil and continues to use evil against His creatures all day long.

THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH GOD CREATED EVIL​

This is all the strange work of God. There is no free will about it. We are all born out of a dark womb into the natural light of day, but this too is but a parable. We must be “born again” out of spiritual darkness of this age into the glorious light of the Sun of God. It is a painful journey, and requires an experience of evil to accomplish.

“And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail has God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith” (Ecclesiastes 1:13).
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What a horrible translation! My King James has three superior numbers in this one verse indicating three different words in the margin. Especially the last phrase:

“…this sore travail has God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.”
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What pray tell does that mean? One of the most all-encompassing and profound verses in all Scripture, and most translations butcher it beyond understanding.

NEW AMERICAN BIBLE: “A thankless task God has appointed for men to be busied about.”
JEWISH PUBLICATION SOCIETY: “…it is a sore task that God has given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.”
NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION: “What a heavy burden God has laid on men!”
YOUNG’S LITERAL TRANSLATION: “It is a sad travail God has given to the son of man to be humbled by it.”
​

This is really an important verse; we have got to get it right. Young’s Translation gets a little closer to the truth than the KJV or the previous three references. He got the humbled part right. But what is all this “sad travail,” “heavy burden,” “thankless task,” business all about? It is not that difficult if we will just look at the Hebrew words:
Ecc. 1:13 from the King James:
First, the word “this” may be better translated “it,” as some have done.
But far, far more important than all, the word “sore” should be translated “EVIL” as almost none have done. It is the Hebrew word ra which always means “EVIL,” and is translated as “evil” in hundreds and hundreds of other verses. Why not in this verse? The few times that ra is translated “sore” in the KJV, it ALWAYS means “evil” as in “evil sickness” or “evil troubles.”
The word “travail” in the KJV is not out of line with the Hebrew, but is nebulous and not easily understood by most. It would better translated as “employment” or “experience.”
And we have already seen from other versions that the KJV “exercised” is better translated “humbled” as Young’s and Concordant has done.
Here then is a proper translation of this most profound verse:
“It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it” (Concorant Old Testament).


“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil” (Isa. 45:7).

“And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow… the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (Gen. 2:9).
​

“It is an experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it” (Ecc. 1:13, Concordant Literal Old Testament).
​

“Out of the mouth of the most High proceeds not evil and good?” (Lam. 3:38).
​

“I will raise up evil against you out of your own house…” (II Sam. 12:11).
​

“…I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction” (Jer. 4:6).
​

“…Hear, O earth; behold, I will bring evil upon this people…” (Jer. 6:19).
​

“…Thus says the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you…” (Jer. 18:11).
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“…so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until He have destroyed you from off this good land…” (Josh. 23:15)
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“What? Shall we receive good at the hand of God and shall we not receive evil?” (Job 2:10).
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“…shall thee be evil in a city, and the Lord has not done it?” (Amos 3:6).



Either you can believe in what the bible states, or you can be like most and trust in what preachers say blindly.

 

[Kangaroo Hopscotch]

Thank you, Yashua. You cleared up all of my questions, and supported them biblically.

 

[yashua1970]

Thank you, Yashua. You cleared up all of my questions, and supported them biblically.

No problem. Glad to be some help. The bible is quite clear on who it is that actually created and performs evil.

 

[ittarter]

Hello, I have a large question pertaining to the origin of evil. I am not asking for the origin of sin, but rather what sin came from.

This question can only be meaningful if sin is taken as a historical, rather than philosophical, reality. If it is not a historical reality, it is akin to asking "where did God come from?" -- it is a meaningless and useless question.

However, the book of Genesis answers in two ways, Exodus in another, and Jesus in yet another. There is no one answer -- rather each answer guides us in a specific direction in terms of how we understand evil and, by extension, how we respond to it.

In order for sin to exist in a universe created by an omnipotent being such as God, who is entirely Good, there would be no trace of Evil anywhere within the universe.

Actually, this only works if you also assume God's omnipotence. If all three are true (and this is why Christianity has to invest so much time developing theodicies that appear to function adequately to satisfy over a billion members worldwide) then yes, evil logically could not exist.

Now I know that many people would argue and say that Lucifer, the Angel of Light, is the harbinger of sin and that he got such an infamous position by rebelling against God. But therein lies the problem. In order for Lucifer to rebel against God, he would have to have been motivated by a force not of this universe, with the power to rival the very Creator of the universe.

The great debate of free choice rages on, around and around its little hamster wheel.

In fact, for any evils of the world to exist, they would have had to be created by a force who is the very anti-thesis of God. A godlike being, composed entirely of evil, the creator of Death? For as it is, God, who is Good, could not have been the purveyor of Death and Destruction, nor even of all the ills of mankind. The fact is, with the intricacy of the evils of Man, they would have had to have been created by a vile being without even a trace of Good.

Actually, death is generally considered not as evil, except in a highly naturalistic and materialistic philosophy. In terms of Christian belief, death is fully compatible with an omnibenevolent and omnipotent God. Other evils, however, are not.

As it is, Revelations speaks of a place known as the Abyss. Nowhere else in the Bible is the word abyss given such significance. There is one brief mention of throwing people into the abyss in Psalms, but the Psalmist did not seem to refer to it as a place, whereas John does. Not only this, but from the Abyss rises an angel, never before heard of in any Scripture. In Greek he is Apollyon, the angel of destruction, but in Hebrew he is Abaddon, the angel of death.

With God being Good, there is no possibility of this angel being a creation of God. As such, its only possible origin would be an evil being, separate of God.

In terms of Revelation's own eschatological program it is questionable whether the existence and activity of the angel of death results in unmitigated evil. If not, then your position is open to all sorts of counters. Until you read Revelation on its own terms, you are in no position to find any inconsistencies in its theology. However, it would hardly be surprising to discover that it is, in many ways, inconsistent with certain modern theologies, since those theologies define evil, and with it God's responsibility with respect to evil, in very different ways.

So the real question is this: Is it possible that Evil is as old as God?[/quote]As I said at the beginning, you must first demonstrate that the question of evil should be framed historically. Otherwise this question is meaningless, since neither God nor evil have any discernible "age."

I hope this helps. Let me know if you wish to discuss any of these issues further.

 

[ittarter]

God is the origin of evil, the proof is in the bible where God states:

Is. 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

As I have explained in previous threads, the Hebrew word 'ra does not mean "evil" as "the opposite of good, i.e. anything from God." Therefore all of your citations of "evil" from the Hebrew Bible are flawed semantically. In Isaiah 45:7, for example, it clearly means suffering, war, pain, etc. The OP's question, if I have understood it correctly, is not asking "who is the causal agent of human suffering?" but rather "why do forces against God exist?"

If you wish to discuss the exegetical issues of this or any other passage more closely, I will be more than happy to oblige you.

While the Bible clearly and repeatedly demonstrates that God causes evil in terms of suffering, it also consistently teaches that God does NOT cause evil in terms of sin. One of the famous ones is found in the first chapter of the letter of James, which explicitly states, "[God] himself tempts no one." This thought may be found repeatedly throughout the New Testament, as well as in the Hebrew Bible. For example, consider how Abram views God when he appeals to him as "the judge of all the earth" who is bound to "do right" (Gen. 18 I believe).

But for some strange reason people who "believe" in the bible do not believe what the bible states about God being the author of Evil.

Since we have already seen that the word "evil" is the bearer of multiple concepts, this is hardly surprising. Laypersons are famous for failing to define the terms of their argument, particularly in cases of emotional investment such as this one.

Either you can believe in what the bible states, or you can be like most and trust in what preachers say blindly.

While I am certain that many Christian leaders make silly claims about God's relationship to evil, and agree with you that we should take what any religious spokesperson says with a grain of salt, it is likewise imperative that we recognize that the Bible, since the beginning of the Protestant era, has been read by many laypersons without adequate guidance, wisdom or training, and has resulted in many interpretations that contradict each other. Thus it is not about believing "what the Bible states," but rather about reading carefully, slowly, thoughtfully, and critically, with a community of like-minded believers to help you when things get rough. The Bible was never intended for uncontrolled, individual use. It was meant for communal devotional study by authentic followers of God and his prophets, and his Christ.

 

[yashua1970]

As I have explained in previous threads, the Hebrew word 'ra does not mean "evil" as "the opposite of good, i.e. anything from God." Therefore all of your citations of "evil" from the Hebrew Bible are flawed semantically. In Isaiah 45:7, for example, it clearly means suffering, war, pain, etc. The OP's question, if I have understood it correctly, is not asking "who is the causal agent of human suffering?" but rather "why do forces against God exist?"

If you wish to discuss the exegetical issues of this or any other passage more closely, I will be more than happy to oblige you.

While the Bible clearly and repeatedly demonstrates that God causes evil in terms of suffering, it also consistently teaches that God does NOT cause evil in terms of sin. One of the famous ones is found in the first chapter of the letter of James, which explicitly states, "[God] himself tempts no one." This thought may be found repeatedly throughout the New Testament, as well as in the Hebrew Bible. For example, consider how Abram views God when he appeals to him as "the judge of all the earth" who is bound to "do right" (Gen. 18 I believe).

Since we have already seen that the word "evil" is the bearer of multiple concepts, this is hardly surprising. Laypersons are famous for failing to define the terms of their argument, particularly in cases of emotional investment such as this one.

While I am certain that many Christian leaders make silly claims about God's relationship to evil, and agree with you that we should take what any religious spokesperson says with a grain of salt, it is likewise imperative that we recognize that the Bible, since the beginning of the Protestant era, has been read by many laypersons without adequate guidance, wisdom or training, and has resulted in many interpretations that contradict each other. Thus it is not about believing "what the Bible states," but rather about reading carefully, slowly, thoughtfully, and critically, with a community of like-minded believers to help you when things get rough. The Bible was never intended for uncontrolled, individual use. It was meant for communal devotional study by authentic followers of God and his prophets, and his Christ.

As I have explained in previous threads, the Hebrew word 'ra does not mean "evil" as "the opposite of good, i.e. anything from God." Therefore all of your citations of "evil" from the Hebrew Bible are flawed semantically.

You would not believe how many times I have heard this argument from well meaning Christians such as yourself.

Part One
​

I will have to post this in two parts.

Here I will list the meaning of "Ra", and how many times it is used, and then you can see that it means without a doubt that it is evil, the opposite of "good", and that God is the creator of, and minister of evil.

“That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I made peace [good], and create evil: I the Lord do all these things” (Isa. 45:6-7).

I often hear people who assert that the word “evil” in this verse should be translated “calamity.” That is decidedly a fabricated assertion, but little would be gained by it even if it were true. Would the Christmas tsunami in Indonesia have reeked less havoc had it been a “calamity” rather than an “evil?” What would be gained by calling “evils” by the name “calamities”? That is nonsense.
Nevertheless, let it be known that the word translated “evil” in Isaiah 45:7 is the Hebrew word ra. The Hebrew word for “calamity” is the Hebrew word ade which means “misfortune, misery, or ruin. Whereas the Hebrew word ra means “bad or evil.” It is the same word used for the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil [ra].” It was not the tree of the knowledge of “good and calamity.” Did Jacob really mean to say, “a calamitousbeast” had devoured his son? (Gen. 37:33)? Did Israel really “do calamity in the sight of God” by worshipping Balaam, or did they do evil? (Jud. 3:7).
The Hebrew ra means “bad or evil” and it is used over four hundred times to represent bad or evil, not calamity.
God created ra—EVIL. Furthermore God used evil and continues to use evil against His creatures all day long.


Evil: Strong's 7451; (Ra) occurs 613 times in 569 verses in the KJV


Adj

1) bad, evil
a) bad, disagreeable, malignant
b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
c) evil, displeasing
d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
e) bad (of value)
f) worse than, worst (comparison)
g) sad, unhappy
h) evil (hurtful)
i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
1) in general, of persons, of thoughts
2) deeds, actions


n m
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
a) evil, distress, adversity
b) evil, injury, wrong
c) evil (ethical)


n f
3) evil, misery, distress, injury
a) evil, misery, distress
b) evil, injury, wrong
c) evil (ethical)


From the root 7489: ra`a`


1) to be bad, be evil
a) (Qal)
1) to be displeasing
2) to be sad
3) to be injurious, be evil
4) to be wicked, be evil (ethically)
b) (Hiphil)
1) to do an injury or hurt
2) to do evil or wickedly
3) mischief (participle)
2) to break, shatter
a) (Qal)
1) to break
2) broken (participle)
3) to be broken
b) (Hithpolel) to be broken, be broken in pieces, be broken asunder


Now from simply "reading," anyone with a logical mind can easily see that "Evil" is the opposite of "Good," If it were not it would have never, ever in any way be stated so in the quote "The knowledge of "Good and Evil"


“It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it” (Concorant Old Testament).


And to this agrees the rest of Scripture:



“For ALL his days are SORROWS, and his travail [experience] GRIEF…” (Ecc. 2:23).




Who was responsible for these evils and calamity that came upon Job? Satan, right? Wrong. Satan was merely the club in God’s hand. Notice what Job was inspired to say:
“And said, Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord. In all this Job sinned NOT, nor charged God foolishly [with wrong]” (Job 1:21-22).


All through the remaining chapters, Job charges GOD with being responsible for his trial, not Satan. In the last chapter God reprimands Job’s three friends by saying:

“…ye have not spoken of Me the thing which is RIGHT, like My servant Job” (Job 42:8).
​

Job charged God with all the evils that came on him and God said Job spoke the truth and what was right,
Job had no “free will” in any of this. God was in total control and God was responsible for all that happened. God caused Job’s uprightness; God caused Job’s downfall; God caused Job’s restoration and blessing. He will do the same for all humanity, with the exception that our blessings will be spiritual and eternal, not just physical and temporary as Job’s were.

Did God merely “allow” Satan to try Jesus Christ our Lord?

“Then was Jesus led up of the SPIRIT [of GOD] into the wilderness [This is the Spirit of God leading Jesus up into the wilderness. But why? For what purpose?] to be tempted [Gk: ‘tested’] OF THE DEVIL [Satan, Ver. 10]” (Matt. 4:1).
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Is this not the very same thing we read concerning Job; that he was “tested of God” through the vessel of Satan?
“But He knows the way that I take: when He [God] has tried me [Hebrew: ‘tested me’]” (Job 23:10).


Now for you to say that:

"the opposite of good, i.e. anything from God."

is misleading especially since these verses from your bible prove otherwise.


“Out of the mouth of the most High proceeds not evil and good?” (Lam. 3:38).

“I will raise up evil against you out of your own house…” (II Sam. 12:11).
​

“…I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction” (Jer. 4:6).
​

“…Hear, O earth; behold, I will bring evil upon this people…” (Jer. 6:19).
​

“…Thus says the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you…” (Jer. 18:11).
​

“…so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until He have destroyed you from off this good land…” (Josh. 23:15)
​

“What? Shall we receive good at the hand of God and shall we not receive evil?” (Job 2:10).
​

“…shall thee be evil in a city, and the Lord has not done it?” (Amos 3:6).



Teaching that God does not cause and use evil, but only allows it, is nothing less than theological buffoonery.
Do you comprehend what you have read? Do you really? Well if you haven’t gotten it yet, let me make it clear: Things don’t just happen on this earth or in the universe; rather God makes them happen, He causes them to happen, He brings them about.
“…according to the purpose of Him [God] Who works [Greek aiorist tense: past, present, and future] all things after the counsel of His Own will” (Eph. 1:11).


“…shall there be evil [Heb: ra—‘bad, evil’] in a city, and the Lord has not done it? (Amos 3:6)


There’s the question; what’s the answer? The answer from all Christendom is “Yes.” “Yes” there shall be all kinds of evil in a city, and the Lord has not done it. In fact, according to their teaching, the Lord does no evil in any city, ever. Billy Graham said before a packed house in the National Cathedral, that GOD DOES NOT CREATE EVIL. Ha! Ha!. Here's a man who has made his money telling a lie, I know Billy is well meaning, and not out to hurt anyone, but my goodness why can't people just believe what is stated plainly in front of their faces?

 

[yashua1970]

Part Two
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The world of Christendom will not tolerate, anyone quoting these Scriptures and then teaching that they are true and factual as to the character of our Great Creator God. They do not approve of God “creating” evil, nor do they approve of God “using” evil—even if God’s use of evil always eventuates in the GREATEST POSSIBLE ETERNAL GOOD.
It never dawns on their carnal minds for one moment that God might cause and use these unspeakable evils for a great and redeeming purpose beyond our wildest dreams or expectations. Unless we can see the plan, the purpose, the Goal of God for the human race, we will never see or be able to justify the hard, and painful, and difficult, and humanly impossible journey through evil to reach that marvelous eternal goal that God has purposed in Himself and our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!


The exegetical issue that you wish to discuss is a charade for not accepting what is plainly in front of you. Every passage that was quoted does not have some "critical explanation" needed to try and explain away what God does.



Go through the 613 times in which "Evil"(Ra) occurs, and then come back and "try as you might" explain that it clearly means what it doesn't mean.


I never once inferred that evil is associated with Sin. Sin in it's purest meaning means "To miss the mark."
God does not miss the mark one single time when using evil for the purpose of bringing about a desired result.
Man uses evil because of his imbalanced state.


But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart (the mind); and they defile the man.
For out of the heart (the mind) proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
These are the things which defile a man.

And from the mind of man, does sin occur (miss the mark), and from missing the mark does evil occur.

The OP's question, if I have understood it correctly, is not asking "who is the causal agent of human suffering?" but rather "why do forces against God exist?"

There are no forces against God period.
All things that exist God created for his good pleasure.

The word translated "will" in Rom. 9:19. It is not the usual Greek word, which is translated "will" hundreds of times in the New Testament. This Greek word boulema is used but twice in the Bible, here in Rom. 9:19 and in Acts 27:43 where it is translated "purpose."
So the question that Paul is setting up is not "…who has resisted His will?" but rather, "who has resisted His purpose [His plan, His intention]?"
To the question, "…who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!
God has a will and God has a plan and purpose to reach that will. And no small part of reaching His desired will is to set men against His will, just as He did with Pharaoh. But no one has ever hindered God’s plan and purpose in reaching that goal and stated will. God’s will, will be done in His time.


"For IT IS GOD which works IN YOU both TO WILL and TO DO of HIS good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13)


Did “…the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan…” (Rev. 20:2), form himself out of a perfect angel/cherub, or did God form this serpent as he now is?

“By His spirit He [God] has garnished [adorned] the heavens; His hand has formed the crooked serpent” (Job 26:13).

God did not form a perfect cherub named Lucifer who then became the crooked serpent.
Satan was not an “Angel of Light which transformed himself into Satan,” as the Christian Church teaches, but rather:

“And no marvel: for Satan himself is transformed [Gk: or ‘disguised’—Strong’s #3345] into an angel of light” (II Cor. 11:14).

The “Lucifer became Satan” fable is Scripturally contradicted by the “Satan pretends to be an angel of light” truth.
Satan the serpent is a destroyer:

“Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer” (I Cor. 10:10).

What is this “destroyer?” The word is taken from the Greek word, olothreutes, and guess what it means? It means “venomous SERPENT.” This serpent is a “destroyer.” God “formed the crooked serpent,” and this serpent is a “destroyer.” Isn’t that the very purpose for which God created this “venomous serpent/destroyer?”

“Behold I have created the smith that blows the coals in the fire, and that brings forth an instrument for his work; and I [God] have created the waster [Heb: ‘destroyer’] to destroy” (Isa. 54:16).


Again there are no forces "against" God, rather all things are "of" God to fulfill "his" purpose.
I know for most this is "Unacceptable," but that is not surprising since what most call Evil, God meant for good.




















​

​

 

[ittarter]

You would not believe how many times I have heard this argument from well meaning Christians such as yourself.

Since you failed to respond to the issues I raised I suggest that you either misunderstand how all these purportedly "well meaning Christians" are proving their case, OR they are proving their case in a different way than I did above.

I will respond briefly to the first of your two posts and demonstrate its inadequacy. Unless you reply with some force to the points I make, I will not reply again.

Here I will list the meaning of "Ra", and how many times it is used, and then you can see that it means without a doubt that it is evil, the opposite of "good", and that God is the creator of, and minister of evil.

It is pointless to use the word "evil" to define Heb. 'ra because that is precisely the semantic issue of our disagreement. In English, "evil" may describe suffering/adversity OR moral corruption/activity. This was particularly true when the King James Bible was written (on which Strong's concordance is based) therefore none of the biblical texts you quote by virtue their inclusion of the word "evil" means anything. Likewise, the definitions you cite from Strong's suffer from the same ambiguity.

I often hear people who assert that the word “evil” in this verse should be translated “calamity.” That is decidedly a fabricated assertion, but little would be gained by it even if it were true. Would the Christmas tsunami in Indonesia have reeked less havoc had it been a “calamity” rather than an “evil?” What would be gained by calling “evils” by the name “calamities”? That is nonsense.

This is because there is a great deal of semantic overlap between the two, both in English and even more in Hebrew. However, I have already granted that God is the cause of many evils (in terms of calamities, suffering, destruction, and so forth). Your further claim that God is the cause of moral corruption and immoral action remains to be proven. With the two passages (from Gen. 18 and James 1) I have already cited to demonstrate the existence of a strong biblical current that opposes that claim, I will add a third.

Consider Job's interaction with God. He believes that God has made him suffer, but for no good reason. Job was innocent, therefore he should prosper, according to the conventional wisdom of his day (and ours). Job has no problem ascribing to God responsibility for "evil" (in terms of calamity) but has a huge problem ascribing to him responsibility for evil (in terms of immoral, specifically unjust, activity). The two types of evil are distinct in terms of how they are treated.

Nevertheless, let it be known that the word translated “evil” in Isaiah 45:7 is the Hebrew word ra. The Hebrew word for “calamity” is the Hebrew word ade which means “misfortune, misery, or ruin. Whereas the Hebrew word ra means “bad or evil.” It is the same word used for the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil [ra].” It was not the tree of the knowledge of “good and calamity.” Did Jacob really mean to say, “a calamitousbeast” had devoured his son? (Gen. 37:33)? Did Israel really “do calamity in the sight of God” by worshipping Balaam, or did they do evil? (Jud. 3:7).

Words mean different things in different contexts. This is a basic and fundamental characteristic of many words in every language I am aware of. For example, "That was a good game last night," and, "The Bible teaches us to be good." In the first case, "good" means "enjoyable, fun, pleasant" or perhaps "exciting, competitive" while in the second, it has a clear moral intent.

In your first example, yes, Jacob clearly refers to the beast as a causer of calamity. In your second example, Israel is morally guilty for their actions, which also results in calamity. However, since Heb. 'ra can mean different things in different contexts, and these examples are contextually night-and-day from the passages about God that you wish to interpret, there is no way that they can help us understand what 'ra means in those passages.

The Hebrew ra means “bad or evil” and it is used over four hundred times to represent bad or evil, not calamity.

You suppose that the concepts are mutually exclusive. There is no basis for this supposition.

Now from simply "reading," anyone with a logical mind can easily see that "Evil" is the opposite of "Good," If it were not it would have never, ever in any way be stated so in the quote "The knowledge of "Good and Evil"

As I have already demonstrated, "good" has an equally flexible range of meanings, so to say that one is the opposite of the other does nothing to support your case. I can use the word "good" to describe the acquisition of material wealth, vis-a-vis "evil" to describe the loss of it.

Who was responsible for these evils and calamity that came upon Job? Satan, right? Wrong. Satan was merely the club in God’s hand. Notice what Job was inspired to say:
“And said, Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord. In all this Job sinned NOT, nor charged God foolishly [with wrong]” (Job 1:21-22).


All through the remaining chapters, Job charges GOD with being responsible for his trial, not Satan. In the last chapter God reprimands Job’s three friends by saying:

“…ye have not spoken of Me the thing which is RIGHT, like My servant Job” (Job 42:8).
​

Job charged God with all the evils that came on him and God said Job spoke the truth and what was right,
Job had no “free will” in any of this. God was in total control and God was responsible for all that happened. God caused Job’s uprightness; God caused Job’s downfall; God caused Job’s restoration and blessing. He will do the same for all humanity, with the exception that our blessings will be spiritual and eternal, not just physical and temporary as Job’s were.

Either you are unwittingly proving my point here, or we are talking about different things.

Did God merely “allow” Satan to try Jesus Christ our Lord?

“Then was Jesus led up of the SPIRIT [of GOD] into the wilderness [This is the Spirit of God leading Jesus up into the wilderness. But why? For what purpose?] to be tempted [Gk: ‘tested’] OF THE DEVIL [Satan, Ver. 10]” (Matt. 4:1).
​

Is this not the very same thing we read concerning Job; that he was “tested of God” through the vessel of Satan?
“But He knows the way that I take: when He [God] has tried me [Hebrew: ‘tested me’]” (Job 23:10).

Exactly. God tests; the devil tempts. The distinction is quite meaningful, and as I have ALREADY said (and was sadly ignored), James 1:13 clearly states that God "tempts" no one. Gk. peirazo the same word used in both James 1:13 (of God, negatively) and Matt. 4:1 (of the devil, positively). Again, you are unwittingly proving my case.

The answer from all Christendom is “Yes.” “Yes” there shall be all kinds of evil in a city, and the Lord has not done it. In fact, according to their teaching, the Lord does no evil in any city, ever. Billy Graham said before a packed house in the National Cathedral, that GOD DOES NOT CREATE EVIL. Ha! Ha!. Here's a man who has made his money telling a lie, I know Billy is well meaning, and not out to hurt anyone, but my goodness why can't people just believe what is stated plainly in front of their faces?

Your elitist comments are hardly indicative that you have interpreted the biblical texts wisely.

Until you understand the relationship between moral corruption and calamitous suffering, you will continue to misread the hundreds of texts that ascribe "evil" to God.

 

[DonnyT]

Hello, I have a large question pertaining to the origin of evil. I am not asking for the origin of sin, but rather what sin came from.

In order for sin to exist in a universe created by an omnipotent being such as God, who is entirely Good, there would be no trace of Evil anywhere within the universe.

Now I know that many people would argue and say that Lucifer, the Angel of Light, is the harbinger of sin and that he got such an infamous position by rebelling against God. But therein lies the problem. In order for Lucifer to rebel against God, he would have to have been motivated by a force not of this universe, with the power to rival the very Creator of the universe.

In fact, for any evils of the world to exist, they would have had to be created by a force who is the very anti-thesis of God. A godlike being, composed entirely of evil, the creator of Death? For as it is, God, who is Good, could not have been the purveyor of Death and Destruction, nor even of all the ills of mankind. The fact is, with the intricacy of the evils of Man, they would have had to have been created by a vile being without even a trace of Good.

As it is, Revelations speaks of a place known as the Abyss. Nowhere else in the Bible is the word abyss given such significance. There is one brief mention of throwing people into the abyss in Psalms, but the Psalmist did not seem to refer to it as a place, whereas John does. Not only this, but from the Abyss rises an angel, never before heard of in any Scripture. In Greek he is Apollyon, the angel of destruction, but in Hebrew he is Abaddon, the angel of death.

With God being Good, there is no possibility of this angel being a creation of God. As such, its only possible origin would be an evil being, separate of God.

So the real question is this: Is it possible that Evil is as old as God?

No, God is the creator of all, including evil. Why did God create evil? IMO in order for there to be a choice (choice is required for non-robotic love) we need something to choose besides God. If God drew a line on a piece of paper, what defines the line? The dark line or the white paper around the line. If it was all white or dark there would be no line. Imagine a universe of pure good, like God...we would not know how to choose anything.

 

[yashua1970]

Since you failed to respond to the issues I raised I suggest that you either misunderstand how all these purportedly "well meaning Christians" are proving their case, OR they are proving their case in a different way than I did above.

I will respond briefly to the first of your two posts and demonstrate its inadequacy. Unless you reply with some force to the points I make, I will not reply again.

It is pointless to use the word "evil" to define Heb. 'ra because that is precisely the semantic issue of our disagreement. In English, "evil" may describe suffering/adversity OR moral corruption/activity. This was particularly true when the King James Bible was written (on which Strong's concordance is based) therefore none of the biblical texts you quote by virtue their inclusion of the word "evil" means anything. Likewise, the definitions you cite from Strong's suffer from the same ambiguity.

This is because there is a great deal of semantic overlap between the two, both in English and even more in Hebrew. However, I have already granted that God is the cause of many evils (in terms of calamities, suffering, destruction, and so forth). Your further claim that God is the cause of moral corruption and immoral action remains to be proven. With the two passages (from Gen. 18 and James 1) I have already cited to demonstrate the existence of a strong biblical current that opposes that claim, I will add a third.

Consider Job's interaction with God. He believes that God has made him suffer, but for no good reason. Job was innocent, therefore he should prosper, according to the conventional wisdom of his day (and ours). Job has no problem ascribing to God responsibility for "evil" (in terms of calamity) but has a huge problem ascribing to him responsibility for evil (in terms of immoral, specifically unjust, activity). The two types of evil are distinct in terms of how they are treated.

Words mean different things in different contexts. This is a basic and fundamental characteristic of many words in every language I am aware of. For example, "That was a good game last night," and, "The Bible teaches us to be good." In the first case, "good" means "enjoyable, fun, pleasant" or perhaps "exciting, competitive" while in the second, it has a clear moral intent.

In your first example, yes, Jacob clearly refers to the beast as a causer of calamity. In your second example, Israel is morally guilty for their actions, which also results in calamity. However, since Heb. 'ra can mean different things in different contexts, and these examples are contextually night-and-day from the passages about God that you wish to interpret, there is no way that they can help us understand what 'ra means in those passages.

You suppose that the concepts are mutually exclusive. There is no basis for this supposition.

As I have already demonstrated, "good" has an equally flexible range of meanings, so to say that one is the opposite of the other does nothing to support your case. I can use the word "good" to describe the acquisition of material wealth, vis-a-vis "evil" to describe the loss of it.

Either you are unwittingly proving my point here, or we are talking about different things.

Exactly. God tests; the devil tempts. The distinction is quite meaningful, and as I have ALREADY said (and was sadly ignored), James 1:13 clearly states that God "tempts" no one. Gk. peirazo the same word used in both James 1:13 (of God, negatively) and Matt. 4:1 (of the devil, positively). Again, you are unwittingly proving my case.

Until you understand the relationship between moral corruption and calamitous suffering, you will continue to misread the hundreds of texts that ascribe "evil" to God.

It is pointless to use the word "evil" to define Heb. 'ra because that is precisely the semantic issue of our disagreement.

On the contrary. Hebrew has a very wide range of meanings. "Ra" as I listed has a wide range of "meanings," but no matter If the meanings are limited to a simple word such as "Evil" the point of the whole matter is that God is the creator of and minister of:
bad, disagreeable, malignant,giving pain, unhappiness, misery,distress, injury, etc, etc, etc.
So your point about any kind of "Semantic Overlap" is pointless.

Your further claim that God is the cause of moral corruption and immoral action remains to be proven.

Why is it that If I were to quote a passage from the Quran stating that "Allah" commanded the destruction of an entire city, you would say that it was "wrong" "evil" "Immoral", but when God commands the very same thing, you state that it wasn't "wrong" "evil" or "Immoral", yet by simple logic it is wrong, evil, and immoral? Is it because you want to place the blame on something else instead of God? When you do this you actually rob God of his Glory.

It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

God is the cause of "ALL" things. Moral and Immoral, or Good and Evil.

God created man "weak"

"For the creature [and/or creation itself] wasMADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that’s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAINuntil NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!


VANITY: empty, profitless, vain, transientness [temporary], depravity [wickedness].
BONDAGE: slavery, subjection, subserviency.
CORRUPTION: shrivel, wither, spoil, ruin, deprave, defile, destroy, decay, perish
GROAN: moan, calamity, be in straits, murmur, grief, grudge, anguish.
TRAVAIL: pangs, to pain together, travail as in birth.
PAIN: anguish, toil for daily subsistence, starving.


Here is one of the most profound Scriptural Truths that you will ever learn. GOD is the originator and Creator of the entire universe and everything that is in it! GOD is responsible for the entire universe and everything that is in it! And to say otherwise in both unscriptural and foolishness.



"For it is GOD which works in you both to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
Whether it be good or evil.



There is also no question about it among Christians. That God is the creator of evil and preordained the sin of Adam, however, is believed by virtually no one.



It was God HIMSELF Who subjected the whole creation to vanity, and He didn’t ask anyone’s permission before He did it. And it is only God Himself Who will deliver the whole creation from the bondage of corruption, pain, and suffering. Make no mistake about it: God is the Creator of evil, and He takes full responsibility for the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils that have caused the creation to "groan and travail in PAIN until NOW" as Paul describes. God takes responsibility for the temporary failures of creation so that He can take all the credit and glory for its successes.

It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN -- he was created for the express purpose of being God’s Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner "FROM THE BEGINNING"!
It was not possible for Adam and Eve NOT TO SIN -- they were created for the express purpose of being molded into the "image of God," and so of course, they had to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil or they would have NEVER reached this first spiritual step in becoming LIKE GOD (in His IMAGE), a step of paramount DIVINE REQUISITE:

"And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand], the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US [Hebrew for ‘God’ is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence ‘us’], TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL..." (Gen. 3:22).
​

Knowing "good and evil" is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God. To truly "know" both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the "TREE of the knowledge of good and evil," which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this "knowledge." NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE!
And so it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN! That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a "mistake," a "missing of the mark," a "falling short of the glory of God," and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes "responsibility" for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world:



But of course your "Semantics" does not "allow" for this does it?


Let me ask something simple.


Was the earthquake that killed thousands of people an act of God?


“You shall be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake…” (Isa. 29:6).


“And, behold, there was a great earthquake for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven…” (Matt. 28:2). Etcetera,


Who commanded it?
God.



"For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are all things: to Whom be glory for ever. Amen" (KJV Rom. 11:36).

"Seeing that OUT of Him and THROUGH Him and FOR Him is all..." (Concordant Version).


Is it "good or evil"?

Is it "Moral or Immoral"?


No, it is neither one to God, but to us it has many different meanings. Do we understand the greater outcome of the tragedy? Not yet, but God does.

God tests; the devil tempts.

And who led Jesus into the desert to be tempted?
God led Jesus into the desert to be tempted of the Devil.


Again "ALL" is of God.

​

 

[ittarter]

On the contrary. Hebrew has a very wide range of meanings. "Ra" as I listed has a wide range of "meanings," but no matter If the meanings are limited to a simple word such as "Evil" the point of the whole matter is that God is the creator of and minister of:
bad, disagreeable, malignant,giving pain, unhappiness, misery,distress, injury, etc, etc, etc.
So your point about any kind of "Semantic Overlap" is pointless.

As I've readily and repeatedly admitted, God causes those kinds of "evil" (although not every instance). But when you say that God is "the creator of evil," people will usually misinterpret you as saying that God desires immorality and moral corruption and acts against the greater good of mankind. The problem of semantic overlap is highly relevant here, because not only does Heb. 'ra often denote ethical evil (in addition to calamitous evil, often arrayed together in a way that is difficult for modern minds to process because we have so strongly separated them), but moreover, "evil" these days typically means moral corruption. Therefore when you say "God is the author of evil" but merely mean that he is "the minister of bad, disagreeable, malignant,giving pain, unhappiness, misery,distress, injury," you are misleading your audience.

Why is it that If I were to quote a passage from the Quran stating that "Allah" commanded the destruction of an entire city, you would say that it was "wrong" "evil" "Immoral", but when God commands the very same thing, you state that it wasn't "wrong" "evil" or "Immoral", yet by simple logic it is wrong, evil, and immoral? Is it because you want to place the blame on something else instead of God? When you do this you actually rob God of his Glory.

I understand that you wish to avoid the difficulty of creating a power independent of God and opposing him. If that is your philosophical position, I have no problem with it. However, as far as the biblical texts are concerned, this is a minority view at best. The Bible repeatedly and consistently states that God does NOT do evil; he is NOT unjust; he is NOT malicious; and so forth. Various acts of God in the Bible which are considered by modern folks as being vindictive, power-hungry, selfish, egotistical, whatever, are simply not interpreted as such by the texts themselves. God was NOT doing evil when he wiped out the Canaanites, and so on.

I've never read the Koran, but I'm pretty sure that any acts of God mentioned in the Koran are likewise viewed by the Koran as being good, regardless of how a foreign ethical system might view those acts. Mainstream Islam and Christianity (as well as Judaism) would all be horrified by your claim that God acts in favor of moral corruption, and would (I'm sure) say that such attributions rob God of his glory.

God is the cause of "ALL" things. Moral and Immoral, or Good and Evil.

God created man "weak"

"For the creature [and/or creation itself] wasMADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that’s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAINuntil NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!

Yes, the movement from being slaves to sin to being slaves to Christ. Clearly Paul envisions a power separate from and opposite to the divine power of Christ and God. Again, you unwittingly prove my case.

Here is one of the most profound Scriptural Truths that you will ever learn. GOD is the originator and Creator of the entire universe and everything that is in it! GOD is responsible for the entire universe and everything that is in it! And to say otherwise in both unscriptural and foolishness.

"For it is GOD which works in you both to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
Whether it be good or evil.

Unfortunately what you added on is precisely what is missing from the text. It specifically says, "his good pleasure," which presumably excludes any possibility of his working in us any evil or corrupt pleasure. A fourth time, you unwittingly prove my case.

Did I mention you have consistently failed to respond to the texts I cite as evidence of the Bible's opposition to your views?

It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN -- he was created for the express purpose of being God’s Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner "FROM THE BEGINNING"!

It was not possible for Adam and Eve NOT TO SIN -- they were created for the express purpose of being molded into the "image of God," and so of course, they had to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil or they would have NEVER reached this first spiritual step in becoming LIKE GOD (in His IMAGE), a step of paramount DIVINE REQUISITE:

"And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand], the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US [Hebrew for ‘God’ is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence ‘us’], TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL..." (Gen. 3:22).
​

Knowing "good and evil" is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God. To truly "know" both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the "TREE of the knowledge of good and evil," which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this "knowledge." NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE!
And so it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN! That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a "mistake," a "missing of the mark," a "falling short of the glory of God," and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes "responsibility" for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world:

But of course your "Semantics" does not "allow" for this does it?

Please, despite the fact that this is an emotional issue for you, try your best to be polite.

Let me ask something simple.

Was the earthquake that killed thousands of people an act of God?

Or better yet, was Jesus' death an act of God? Yes and no. Christian belief is full of fun paradoxes, and until you start to embrace both sides of the coin, you are missing out on a full 50% of Christian theology.

Is it "good or evil"?

Is it "Moral or Immoral"?


No, it is neither one to God, but to us it has many different meanings. Do we understand the greater outcome of the tragedy? Not yet, but God does.

Again, I have no problem with your philosophy, but you are consistently running aground when you attempt to find support for it in the biblical texts. To view God as the first cause, and accordingly responsible for all events whether good or bad, is simply not espoused in any part of the Bible. Some texts get close (Isaiah, Paul) but others are completely opposed (Genesis, Matthew, Revelation).

Essentially your error is that you are going on and on about one side of the debate, but fail to even acknowledge (much less address) the issues raised by the other side.