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The Ordination of Practicing Homosexuals

Are you for or against the ordination of practicing homosexuals?

  • I am for the ordination of practicing homosexuals.

  • I am against the ordination of practicing homosexuals.

  • I don't know what my position is on this issue.


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Albion

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we dont pass judgement on others but God's kindness leads us toward repentance, verse 4.

I appreciate what you are saying there, although some would probably call what you wrote judgmental just the same. What I would like our friends on the other side to know is that I, for one, am not throwing condemnation at them, not telling them what church to attend, and certainly do not suggest that they are not Christian, etc. for disagreeing.

For the sake of accuracy, however, we cannot simply let it pass unchallenged when someone says that the Bible teaches other than what it does. Anyone who is forthright enough to say to us that they simply want such ordinations because, despite all the argumenst pro or con, they just favor them is OK with me. I don't agree with them on that, but we Christians disagree all the time.

It's only when they feel that they have to convince us to agree to the rightness of their position, or of their recent re-interpretation of the Bible, and/or that Christianity has been operating on nothing but plain prejudice for almost all of its history, that they make it necessary to present the counter-argument.
 
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MKJ

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I suppose the crux of the disagreement is that one side (my side) contends that the OT scriptures were delivered for to a specific people within a specific cultural context, and that we must employ reason to interpret God's message as a whole and apply it to modern contexts. The conclusion that my side has reached is that homosexuality in the modern context of a monogamous and commited relationship is neither a perversion nor sinful, due to our interpretation of God's message and our perception of its relevance to this particular modern context.

THis is not what the Church has ever taught about the OT and the Bible, however. It has certainly taught that we look at what was said in context so that we can discern what it actually meant. But this is the case for all of Scripture, Tradition, etc, not just the OT.

The Church has taught that portions of the OT Law were meant specifically for Jews, and were not meant to be applied to all Christians. The moral commands, however, are meant to be applied to all. In some cases, it can be unclear what might be a moral vs another type of command.

Your view that the "modern context" of same sex relationships is different seems to have no reason behind it that I can see, so I am not sure what it is supposed to mean.

And of course it is simply totally inaccurate to say that the Churches teachings on this have been based only on those parts of the OT that present Jewish Law. THey are also found in, for example, the creation account which applies to everyone, and the NT. As well, the Tradition of the Church needs to be considered - Anglicans are not people who look only to the Bible.

Obviously, you have reached a different conclusion which I assume is based on an interpretation of God's message which more fully incorporates OT law, with less regard to the context in which it was delivered. You seem to opperate under the assumption that everything in the bible applies univerally, rather than contextually. This would be our fundamental disagreement.

I suppose this would be considered more of a fundamentalist approach. My perception of your assessment is something along the lines of: 'God said it within a different cultural and historical context, but that doesn't change the fact that he said it so it still applies'.

If the above is in fact your position, we simply disagree. While I certainly respect your opinion, you and I have reached different conclusions. It happens.

This in no way represents the Churches understanding of this, and never has. THe fact that some people continue to claim that it does is bizarre, since it is quite clear historically that this is not how the Church has understood the Bible. It rather makes me wonder if they have simply been very badly educated, or are being deceptive? I can't think of any other explanation.
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Albion,
I believe it runs much deeper that you have said. I believe there is not only a deception here, but one that is simply contrary to the faith at the core. Now I don’t mean that anyone is not being sincere or intending to deceive, but rather the argument is a deception. And this is a common view worldwide that the promotion of same sex relations is merely a spearhead of a different gospel.

The reasons are as follows:
The Bible texts are clear, to apply such a denial to so what that many scriptures say and conclude the opposite would in any other case be ‘laughed out of court’ For example it is like claiming the instances where Jesus NT teaching actually refers specifically to helping the poor in material terms doesn’t mean material at all, but spiritual. The translations are wrong or it isn’t the same culture or Jesus never mentioned the ‘poverty line’
If what is sin cant be agreed then we have lost the basis on what we have been saved from by Christ, thus this isnt the same core gospel at all!

Further to that, the Anglican Communion decided as a whole with Lambeth 1.10, I think GAFCON accounted shows that the revisionists have done nothing but expect to be listened to in order to persuade people to change the view, whilst promoting contrary to Lambeth 1.10, writing new documents promoting same sex relations, supporting government laws for same sex ‘marriage’ or civil partnerships and ordaining their kind.

On top of that we have had the situations such as with Charles Raven where his bishop who is a patron for a gay promoting pressure group and disobedient to Lambeth 1.10, dismisses clergy who are obedient to Lambeth 1.10. We have the TEC doing the same.

On top of that we have them trying to re-write history.

It is somewhat difficult to see those who have such opposing views and acting in a way that doesn’t honour agreements can be in fellowship.
 
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New_Found_Faith

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MKJ said:
THis is not what the Church has ever taught about the OT and the Bible, however. It has certainly taught that we look at what was said in context so that we can discern what it actually meant. But this is the case for all of Scripture, Tradition, etc, not just the OT.

I'm not making a case for what the Church teaches. I'm not making a case for anything, really just explaining my own perspective.

The Church has taught that portions of the OT Law were meant specifically for Jews, and were not meant to be applied to all Christians. The moral commands, however, are meant to be applied to all. In some cases, it can be unclear what might be a moral vs another type of command.

Morality is somewhat subjective. There were very few, if any, monogamous homosexuals in committed romantic relationships in the Society that the Scriptures were presented to when the Scriptures were written which addressed homosexuality. Homosexual behavior most likely occured within the context of orgies, rape, child abuse, etc. as distasteful as it may be to talk or think about.

Your view that the "modern context" of same sex relationships is different seems to have no reason behind it that I can see, so I am not sure what it is supposed to mean.

I believe I stated this above. If not, I will reiterate. I don't think that homosexual behavior is intrinsically sinful, but I do think that context in which it occured in biblical times often was, if not always. The context of a sexual relationship between two people in a committed and monogamous romantic relationship would be different, morally speaking, than the homosexual relationship that might have occured in Genesis 19:5.

This in no way represents the Churches understanding of this, and never has. THe fact that some people continue to claim that it does is bizarre, since it is quite clear historically that this is not how the Church has understood the Bible. It rather makes me wonder if they have simply been very badly educated, or are being deceptive? I can't think of any other explanation.

I'm presenting my own perspective, not TEC's teaching or anything representative of TAC. In fact, I was taught theology in RC schools, and the perspective that I have presented here is obviously not informed by my RC education. Neither do I intend to be deceptive.
 
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New_Found_Faith

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It's only when they feel that they have to convince us to agree to the rightness of their position, or of their recent re-interpretation of the Bible, and/or that Christianity has been operating on nothing but plain prejudice for almost all of its history, that they make it necessary to present the counter-argument.

If you are describing your perception of me, you are mistaking my intent. I just like to debate. :D
 
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MKJ

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Morality is somewhat subjective. There were very few, if any, monogamous homosexuals in committed romantic relationships in the Society that the Scriptures were presented to when the Scriptures were written which addressed homosexuality. Homosexual behavior most likely occured within the context of orgies, rape, child abuse, etc. as distasteful as it may be to talk or think about.

There are lots of instances of homosexual relationships that were not disordered in these ways in the ancient world. A number of ancient writers argued that homosexual relationships were by nature superior to heterosexual ones. THis was not a far-out or unknown POV, though clearly not one the Jews subscribed to. But Paul, for example, would have been well aware of such things.


I'm presenting my own perspective, not TEC's teaching or anything representative of TAC. In fact, I was taught theology in RC schools, and the perspective that I have presented here is obviously not informed by my RC education. Neither do I intend to be deceptive.

I'm sure it is your perspective, but you are characterizing/describing how people who hold to the traditional understanding of Tradition and Scripture think, and how the Church has understood its own thinking in the past. And it is simply inaccurate on that level. Christians from the days of the Apostles have seen that one has to understand all of the teachings of the Church contextually. The Church Fathers clearly set their various opinions contextually. Anglicanism has always taught that Scripture must be understood contextually and has never been fundamentalist, and formed its views in that way.
 
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TheCunctator

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Since I believe Jesus was an open homosexual, I find this entire subject rather laughable. I cannot help but wonder what He would say to the gay-bashers on this board.


What kind of justification could you possibly have to affirm that Jesus was an open homosexual?
 
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JasonV

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What kind of justification could you possibly have to affirm that Jesus was an open homosexual?

Oh maybe that pretty fellow John, the one Jesus loved so much. Only John is singled out as "the" beloved. At the last supper, it seems suggestive that John leaning on Jesus' inner tunic (basically his underwear) referred to a pederastic relationship.
 
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MKJ

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Cunctator: since your faith icon not Anglican, you are only permitted to make posts in fellowship on this forum. You are not allowed to debate, even if some claims that Jesus was gay.

Doesn't sound like a debate to me, more of a "how could you possibly explain that" kind of question.

Reminds me of an article I read by a university prof who said that C.S. Lewis was obviously gay.
 
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Albion

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Oh maybe that pretty fellow John, the one Jesus loved so much. Only John is singled out as "the" beloved. At the last supper, it seems suggestive that John leaning on Jesus' inner tunic (basically his underwear) referred to a pederastic relationship.

If Jesus had been homosexual, it still wouldn't prove anything one way or the other as far as the topic of this thread is concerned. We do need to stick with the topic.
 
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JasonV

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If Jesus had been homosexual, it still wouldn't prove anything one way or the other as far as the topic of this thread is concerned. We do need to stick with the topic.

Hardly. It would be more than sufficient proof that Homosexuality is not "sinful" if God the Son had a male lover.

Or are you suggesting that Leviticus and Paul trump Jesus Christ?
 
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Albion

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Since I believe Jesus was an open homosexual.... John leaning on Jesus' inner tunic (basically his underwear) referred to a pederastic relationship....It would be more than sufficient proof that Homosexuality is not "sinful" if God the Son had a male lover. Or are you suggesting that Leviticus and Paul trump Jesus Christ?

This all belongs on "unorthodox theology," regardless of what icon the poster is sporting today.

Now, back to the topic of this thread.
 
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ThePilgrim

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For the sake of accuracy, it doesn't open the door to Donatism at all, if Donatism be properly understood.

There have always been canons against ordaining certain people and canons requiring that a person be deposed if they commit certain sins.

It has nothing to do with lack of forgiveness, nor with Donatism.

Grace and peace,
Sbn John
 
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