The Ordination of Practicing Homosexuals

[catolico]

Regarding the poll; of course I don't agree with the ordination of practicing homosexuals. It's clear in the Bible what God's opinion is about this.

What is disconcerting is that people in the West can't see how the rampant homosexuality is destroying the fabric of our Christain based society.

 

[kiwimac]

Rot!

 

[brightmorningstar]

To JasonV

God's system of truth = someone's opinion about what God supposedly said.

So how would one know whose opinions were true?

It was written by a specific cultural group that is foreign to anything we have today.

Have you ever read the Bible? Those who claimed authorship were a variety of people from various cultural groups throughout a long period of time.

Useful as it may be,

in what way could it be useful if its all about peoples opinions, surely the usefulness would be the opinions?

we need to look beyond the Bible and communicate with God on a more personal level for inspiration.

What do you mean by 'God'?

 

[ebia]

Regarding the poll; of course I don't agree with the ordination of practicing homosexuals. It's clear in the Bible what God's opinion is about this.

What is disconcerting is that people in the West can't see how the rampant homosexuality is destroying the fabric of our Christain based society.

Based on Romans 1 and other texts I think, if anything, one would have to say that its the other way around if you are determined to draw a cause and effect between the two.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To ebia,

Based on Romans 1 and other texts I think, if anything, one would have to say that its the other way around if you are determined to draw a cause and effect between the two.

how? That’s like saying:

Evil is stronger than goodness,
hate is stronger than love,
Dark is stronger than light,
death is stronger than life,
defeat is ours through him who hated us.

 

[ebia]

Romans 1 talks about homosexuality as a consequence of a culture gone off the rails, not as the cause of it.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To ebia,

Romans 1 talks about homosexuality as a consequence of a culture gone off the rails, not as the cause of it.

No it doesn’t mention culture, it mentions The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. Te cause is suppression of the truth of God’s word.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Modern homosexual thinking is the supression of the truth of God's word and His purposes, one cant be ordained by God against God.

 

[catolico]

Rot!

With all due respect how can one who supposedly loves God think that His plan is imperfect? What makes us any different from the fallen angel whose distrust of God's plan was part of the cause of the human condition?

"By the envy of the Devil, death came into the world" Wisdon 2:24

Doubting God's plan leads to formulating a "better" solution/understanding and this is envy pure and simple.

 

[JasonV]

To JasonV
So how would one know whose opinions were true?

It is not possible, in spite of your assertions, to know.

Of course the Mormons will tell you to pray about it and you'll get a warm fuzzy feeling in your chest. What did it for you?

As for the Bible, I work with it the best I can. It's a part of Christian tradition, but I won't live my life by it any more than I would Augustine's "Confessions".

Have you ever read the Bible?

Probably more times than the text itself deserves.

Those who claimed authorship were a variety of people from various cultural groups throughout a long period of time.

Various cultural groups? I count two: the Eloists and the Jawhists. The whole bible was written in what, five hundred years. That's one fourth of the time since the last book was written! In fact, if we're really going to be bold, the text is so far removed from our reality that todays technology rivals the powers and miracles of Yahweh.

Part the Red Sea? Big deal. I'd like to see Yahweh put men on the Moon or shoot a missle around the world. How about talk to a man on the other side of the world...looking at him like he was standing in person. Beats Pharoahs plagues or Jerico's trumphets anyday.

in what way could it be useful if its all about peoples opinions, surely the usefulness would be the opinions?

Historical curiosity?

What do you mean by 'God'?

The power behind all life.

 

[ebia]

To ebia,
No it doesn’t mention culture, it mentions The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. Te cause is suppression of the truth of God’s word.

Its talking about a society that does that - a culture in other words. It's not framed at individuals but the whole pagan world. "Stop looking - as a society/community/culture/whatever collective noun one wishes to use - towards the one true God and homosexuality is one of the consequences." What Paul does not say here is that homosexulity is a cause but a symptom. Which fits very naturally with Ezekiel's critique of Sodom - the underlying problems are pride, arrogance, lack of hospitality, greed, lack of care for those in need etc. Things that can be quite appropriately leveled at Western culture in general. Loose sight of God's purpose in that way and homosexuality and other sexual issues in the society is, according to Paul and Ezekiel together, a judgement on that society.

So its not homosexuality that is destroying society as per catolico but, according to scripture, a society gone wrong that gives rise to homosexuality.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To ebia,

Its talking about a society that does that - a culture in other words.

Not quite. I basically agree with you but that’s deceptive. You wrote

Romans 1 talks about homosexuality as a consequence of a culture gone off the rails, not as the cause of it.

Romans makes it quite clear that the sins are resulting from a turning away from God and God’s wisdom, homosexuality is just one of them.
I agree with you the Bible shows homosexuality is not a cause, neither in the account of Sodom or Romans 1, but a symptom of a society that has abandoned God’s purposes.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To JasonV,

It is not possible, in spite of your assertions, to know.

As a Christians I believe it is possible, Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life, so if we follow His teaching we know the truth and the truth will not only set us free but our joy will be complete.
"If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." – John 8

Various cultural groups? I count two: the Eloists and the Jawhists. The whole bible was written in what, five hundred years. That's one fourth of the time since the last book was written! In fact, if we're really going to be bold, the text is so far removed from our reality that todays technology rivals the powers and miracles of Yahweh.

Well I was thinking of Jews and Gentiles. Your view is somewhat contrary to Jesus Christ as He affirmed the OT as having been given by God. Your dualism is what Christians would call heresy and not too dissimilar to an early heresy Marcionism.

Part the Red Sea? Big deal. I'd like to see Yahweh put men on the Moon or shoot a missle around the world.

Well Jesus said where there is little faith few miracles occur.

 

[ebia]

To ebia,

Not quite. I basically agree with you but that’s deceptive. You wrote
Romans makes it quite clear that the sins are resulting from a turning away from God and God’s wisdom, homosexuality is just one of them. [/i]
I agree with you the Bible shows homosexuality is not a cause, neither in the account of Sodom or Romans 1, but a symptom of a society that has abandoned God’s purposes.

We're saying the same thing in different words.

 

[JasonV]

To JasonV,
As a Christians I believe it is possible, Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life, so if we follow His teaching we know the truth and the truth will not only set us free but our joy will be complete.
"If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." – John 8

So now you assert a belief in a possibility? Gee I'm convinced...

Well I was thinking of Jews and Gentiles. Your view is somewhat contrary to Jesus Christ as He affirmed the OT as having been given by God. Your dualism is what Christians would call heresy and not too dissimilar to an early heresy Marcionism.

Gentiles are reviled by the Jews in the OT. Hardly cultural diversity.

And Jesus never...NEVER...affirmed the Old Testament. He quoted from a few select verses...that's it. He could have quoted from other texts as well, but that doesn't put the God Stamp on it.

Well Jesus said where there is little faith few miracles occur.

Really? So all those "miracles" meant to persuade the faithless means what exactly?

 

[brightmorningstar]

To JasonV,

So now you assert a belief in a possibility? Gee I'm convinced...

DO you not recognise Jesus Christ? It was His teaching I referred you to. The possibility is if one accepts Him and His teaching.

Gentiles are reviled by the Jews in the OT. Hardly cultural diversity.

Again you are looking at and referring to Gentiles and Jews rather than Christ and His teaching which is whoever believes.

And Jesus never...NEVER...affirmed the Old Testament. He quoted from a few select verses...that's it. He could have quoted from other texts as well, but that doesn't put the God Stamp on it.

Sorry but Jesus referred to not removing one iota from the law and prophets, so He did.

Really? So all those "miracles" meant to persuade the faithless means what exactly?

So yes really and thus your subsequent remark is built upon your error.
“And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.” Matthew 13:58

 

[catolico]

It is not possible, in spite of your assertions, to know.

Unbeknownst to you apparently there is a singular truth. Just because you or I can't completely grasp that is irrevelant. Humilty is a good thing.

Of course the Mormons will tell you to pray about it and you'll get a warm fuzzy feeling in your chest. What did it for you?

As for the Bible, I work with it the best I can. It's a part of Christian tradition, but I won't live my life by it any more than I would Augustine's "Confessions".



Probably more times than the text itself deserves.



Various cultural groups? I count two: the Eloists and the Jawhists. The whole bible was written in what, five hundred years. That's one fourth of the time since the last book was written! In fact, if we're really going to be bold, the text is so far removed from our reality that todays technology rivals the powers and miracles of Yahweh.

Part the Red Sea? Big deal. I'd like to see Yahweh put men on the Moon or shoot a missle around the world. How about talk to a man on the other side of the world...looking at him like he was standing in person. Beats Pharoahs plagues or Jerico's trumphets anyday.



Historical curiosity?



The power behind all life.

What can I say?? I'm utterly dumbfounded that a Christian could even respond in such a manner, especially a Deacon.

Let me ask you a pragmatical question? Why even consider yourself a Christian if you think God's plan is so utterly shortsighted and flawed? How can you sincerely confess your sins due to your imperfect state to a God that is imperfect? What is even the point???

 

[brightmorningstar]

To catolico,

What can I say?? I'm utterly dumbfounded that a Christian could even respond in such a manner, especially a Deacon.

I agree. But with the rules of CF anyone can posts as a Christian regardless of any definitions or boundaries.

 

[catolico]

Its talking about a society that does that - a culture in other words. It's not framed at individuals but the whole pagan world. "Stop looking - as a society/community/culture/whatever collective noun one wishes to use - towards the one true God and homosexuality is one of the consequences." What Paul does not say here is that homosexulity is a cause but a symptom. Which fits very naturally with Ezekiel's critique of Sodom - the underlying problems are pride, arrogance, lack of hospitality, greed, lack of care for those in need etc. Things that can be quite appropriately leveled at Western culture in general. Loose sight of God's purpose in that way and homosexuality and other sexual issues in the society is, according to Paul and Ezekiel together, a judgement on that society.

So its not homosexuality that is destroying society as per catolico but, according to scripture, a society gone wrong that gives rise to homosexuality.

I'm constantly amazed that Christians anymore find a way to diminish the grave sin that homosexuality is. First, we should remember that God's plan is perfect and has REASON. Therefore, biologically speaking, the sexual body parts of a man where designed with the women's sexual parts in mind. The act of sexual intercourse should serve two functions, pleasure between a man and a women (to compliment a marriage of course) and the possibilty of procreation.

Second, if homosexuality was just a consequence of an evil society like Sodom and Gomorrah, why in the world did Lot offer his OWN two VIRGIN daughters to the men when they surrounded his house demanding that he give them the two men(angels) that were visiting them??? The fact is Lot saw rightly that homosexual rape of these two strangers was the worse of the two sins.

Furthermore, there were many wicked societies mentioned throughout the Old Testament replete with prostitutes and whatnot, yet none met such a terrible fate as did Sodom and Gomorrah.

And finally, Leviticus clearly states that a man shall not lie with a man. Now of course the insidiously shrewd might postulate that Leviticus too prohibited the consumption of pork meat but by this one could devine that when Jesus came he removed this restriction. Unfortunately, if this were the case, ie Jesus removed the restriction of a man sleeping with a man, he would have had to state that one commits adultery if he lusts after a man in addition to women. Of course he didn't do this because homosexuality is not natural, never has been and never can be.

For those who like to throw in the very, very small percentage of people born with ambiguous sexual organs, the Bible has spoken about this as well.

 

[JasonV]

To JasonV,
DO you not recognise Jesus Christ? It was His teaching I referred you to. The possibility is if one accepts Him and His teaching.
Again you are looking at and referring to Gentiles and Jews rather than Christ and His teaching which is whoever believes.

Sorry but Jesus referred to not removing one iota from the law and prophets, so He did.
So yes really and thus your subsequent remark is built upon your error.
“And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.” Matthew 13:58

God asked us to reason together. Since you are not willing to do so, I shall stop now before I receive yet another warning on CF.