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The Ontological Argument

Key

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Well, you don't have to compete, but you are on a team, even if it is your own.

Such is life.


So, the question is, how much must humans suffer before we change our ways and focus on preventing our suffering?

Think of all pain as a lesson. We learn such things are wrong when they hurt. So how much must we hurt, before we as a race, as a people, change and stop doing what hurts us?

We posses in our own abilities the power to end, or at the very least, alleviate a vast amount of our suffering. As such, the suffering we could prevent, would fall into the category of Unnecessary, whereupon the suffering that would require Gods divine intervention might be absolutely necessary for our survival.


By the creators allowance.


You are engaging in the discussion, ergo, we are enlightening each other, are we not. And it seems from my view that there are things you are not grasping, so I am correcting you.


Pain, is a way humans learn not to do something. It is a means of survival that we can suffer so we learn what is healthy and what is detrimental to us.

Our suffering as a whole, should be a warning sign that we as humans need to change, not a means by which to blame God for our ill fate.

God has made it clear that until every knee bows, every tongue confesses, and we as a whole learn our lesson and humble ourselves and accept him as our god and we as his people, we will suffer for our own ego, pride, and sins, right here, on earth.

The argument is only emotional if you argue that our emotions, intuitions, sympathy and empathy for the sufferings of others against excessive evil are pointless because we cannot think for ourselves. That is where our impasse exists.

The argument is an Emotional one. As you can see, I just invalidated it on a logical means above.

But, that won't change people's minds. Emotion determines weather you look at what I said and pause, think about it and open yourself up to it, or reject it at sight.

God Bless
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Only because you have an emotional tie to that group. IE: You sympathize with them, or you identify with them.

In either case, it makes your stand an emotional one, not one built off rational.
Don't be obtuse. You accused my argument of being wholly emotional. Now you've backtracked and said it merely involves emotion. I never denied having an emotional investment: as you say, I sympathise. What you spectacularly miss is that this investment is utterly irrelevant: the argument holds regardless of my personal feelings.

Your entire stand was invalidated when you bounced around from evil in the world to God is mean for sending people to hell.
Hardly: the problem of evil demonstrates that the existence of evil in the world (and the afterlife) conflicts with the professed existence of benevolent deities. The abhorrent suffering allegedly endured by the dead conflicts with the idea of just, merciful, loving gods. That conflict is divorced from emotion: I could relish the idea of eternal suffering, but that doesn't change the fact that X conflicts with Y.

You are lashing out at God, and no amount puffery you put around that will make what you are saying contain an iota of logic.
Ah, the old 'Atheist hates the god he doesn't believe in' card. Never grows old

What Point?
That the justice and mercy of God conflicts with the injustice and cruelty of the afterlife - Christianity professes both, and so is untenable. Keep up.

And what part of "I gave up trying to convert people" did you miss?

Sorry, your entire post, from the beginning to the end, is nothing but emotional appeals, wrapped up in a plea's and deep fried in a whine fest.
A claim you've yet to substantiate. You made a claim, and then ran away when called on it. How surprising.

And, Umm, for the record, Just to clear this up for you, if I was to take what you said at value, you have made the claim that my God is evil, so... it's really sad to then watch you play the Christian Love card.
Yea, tragic, my heart is cleft in twain.

Anyway, as I said, you have your reasons, they are just purely emotional.

Just another statistic for the books I guess.
You're right: another atheist attempting a rational, civil discussion, only to be dismissed as 'emotional'. Truly, you're a paragon of virtue and Christ-like behaviour.
God Bless[/quote]
 
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Key

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Don't be obtuse. You accused my argument of being wholly emotional.

It is.


Your affiliation clouds your ability to make a judgment, IE: You can't think rationally about this because you are too heavily emotionality invested.

I never backtracked.

Your argument is one from emotion.

The sum totality of your stand is

"This is wrong because you feel it is wrong"



Huh? Again, Your emotions are running rampant here, again you dismiss the whole Heaven thing (purely because of your own fears and emotional about your fate of Hell).

Which is why I dismiss the rationally of what you are saying. if you looked at the whole picture and not just one myopic part driven by your emotional investment, you might provide to me that your motive is not purely emotional.

Ah, the old 'Atheist hates the god he doesn't believe in' card. Never grows old

Yer telling me, I mean it's really sad at how much hostility I see from Atheist about God, it's pathetic to tell the truth.

But haters are gonna hate, what can ya do.

A claim you've yet to substantiate. You made a claim, and then ran away when called on it. How surprising.

Huh? No, I have made this claim, and I have stood by it. The fact that you can't see it, is not my problem.

You're right: another atheist attempting a rational, civil discussion, only to be dismissed as 'emotional'. Truly, you're a paragon of virtue and Christ-like behaviour.
God Bless

Attempt is an apt word, but then again, your "attempt" is in effect futile because you refuse acknowledge the "Heaven" aspect of the Christan religion because you are too emotionally invested to look past your own fate of Hell.

So as opposed to whining and saying "Nuhhuu Huuu.. Nope", step up and Prove me wrong by showing me you can look at the whole picture in a rational manner, or slink back to the shadows.

Either one is fine by me.

God Bless
 
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Key

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I wanted to address this Gem separately.


Proclaiming God is Evil but his Followers are supposed to be "loving"

Yah. Ok... that a big Neg to your reasoning abilities.

But, that's pretty much the sum totality of what I endure as "Logic and Rational" from Atheists in general, so if it makes you feel any better, you're par for the course.

God Bless
 
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ToHoldNothing

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Well, you don't have to compete, but you are on a team, even if it is your own.

Such is life.

Now you're trying to extend your analogy, which seems disingenuous. You never seemed to imply that the sports analogy was extended to the notion that I'm in the team destined to hell and you're in a team destined to heaven of sorts. Analogical reasoning hardly works unless you indicate from the beginning that it is an analogy to something else and not make it so obscure.


I do think of suffering and pain as a lesson,but at the same time one can argue there's such a thing as too much of either, because people can die and become otherwise significantly disabled in their ability to interact with society by suffering such immense losses or pain. I don't disagree with you in principle, that suffering and pain are means to an end that betters us. I disagree in practice that God has to be part of the formula of betterment. As Buddha says (allegedly, according to Angels and Demons by Dan Brown) "Each of us is a god. Each of us knows all. We need only to open our minds to hear our own wisdom," It's a rough understanding of Buddhism, but it is a start. However blasphemous you may think it is, the insight it has is valuable to me. Does that make me wrong? Prove it.


By the creators allowance.
See above




You are engaging in the discussion, ergo, we are enlightening each other, are we not. And it seems from my view that there are things you are not grasping, so I am correcting you.
The same could be applied to you, so your observation seems moot. If we both admit we could be wrong, that's a better start to a dialogue. A truly philosophical one, especially.

Again, see above. I don't disagree in principle, only in practice.


Who says I have rejected it at sight? I see underneath the first layer and find common ground that may exist and I see it does in some sense. The problem is you're adding another ethical agent to the web of agent/patient causality in ethics. In this case, it makes humans both ethical agents and patients in a sense because God allows suffering in your worldview. While not a contradiction, it does pose category issues.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I wanted to address this Gem separately.



Proclaiming God is Evil but his Followers are supposed to be "loving"

Yah. Ok... that a big Neg to your reasoning abilities.
Why? Christianity commands its followers to be loving (Mark 12:28-31), and I conclude the Christian God to be, despite claims to the contrary, barbaric and malicious. You, naturally, disagree (do you do anything but?), but there we go.

But, that's pretty much the sum totality of what I endure as "Logic and Rational" from Atheists in general, so if it makes you feel any better, you're par for the course.
Blah blah ad hominem blah blah avoiding the point blah blah par for course.
 
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Key

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Why? Christianity commands its followers to be loving (Mark 12:28-31), and I conclude the Christian God to be, despite claims to the contrary, barbaric and malicious. You, naturally, disagree (do you do anything but?), but there we go.

You don't see the logical failure on your part regarding this, at all?

Blah blah ad hominem blah blah avoiding the point blah blah par for course.

As I said, purely emotional.

God Bless.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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You don't see the logical failure on your part regarding this, at all?
No. The Bible calls God loving, but details his malicious actions. How it describes how Christian should behave is irrelevant. The two are unrelated observations; there's no "logical failure" because it's not a logical argument.
 
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Key

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No. The Bible calls God loving, but details his malicious actions. How it describes how Christian should behave is irrelevant. The two are unrelated observations; there's no "logical failure" because it's not a logical argument.



I give up.

God Bless
 
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Key

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Now you're trying to extend your analogy, which seems disingenuous.

The use of an analogy is to be able to discuss a complex topic in terms that can be understood by both parties, ergo. As the discussion extends or changes the use of the analogy is equally applied to those changes, thus, an analogy is not fixed or all encompassing at it's inception, but a mutable medium for exchange to follow ideas as they get presented.

Such is the very nature of discussing things though analogy, there is nothing underhanded about extending the analogy to cover new information as it arises.

Also, no analogy is prefect, again, this is part of what an analogy is to begin with thus any attempt to dissect the analogy as being not perfectly accurate is pointless, as if we could discuss the exacting nature of the subject mater, an analogy would not be needed at the onset.

Just wanted to clear that up for you.

God Bless
 
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ToHoldNothing

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The problem with analogy in a religious context, particularly soteriology, is that with a Christian worldview, you assume exclusive status of salvation and so any parallel or analogy would fail on similar grounds that occur with people trying to disprove the ontological argument on the grounds that you're creating a tautological truistic definition that defines whatever you are concerned with into existence.

If you already assume that salvation in a Christian context is like a game, then you've trivialized the idea it seems. Any parallel is hardly worth pursuing when you've done what Pascal did to belief and reduced it to a gamble. It's not necessarily as simple as I'm on one team and you're on another and one of us has to lose. With salvation, it's rarely so simple. It can work on a gradation where each person is saved at a different pace. It's not as if that's impossible for your god, right?
 
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LordTimothytheWise

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If it's logically valid (and sound, of course), then is that not the most convincing thing you will ever see?
Hardly.

But if the argument is wrong, as most people seem to think, what we 'feel' is irrelevant. Likewise, no matter how strongly we may 'feel' it is false, it might still be true.
That seems irrelevant to both you and Russel. As you first decided it was false then proceeded to pin down the 'why'. Apparently feelings that the argument is false seem to have been the determining factor here. The 'why' came later.


Mind if I have a go?

I don't think it's an issue of arbitrary definitions, but of what already conceptually exists.

We don't need to call this particular being God, but what do we do with the concept itself?

As to your argument about redefining maximal excellence, I think the only reason you would redefine maximal excellence to add morally corrupt is because you're trying to argue that the definition is arbitrary to begin with, so we can reasonably suppose that morally corrupt isn't a descriptor that you would normally accept for a maximally excellent being.

Anyway, maybe one could argue there isn't a possible world wherein a maximally excellent being exists, but then you simply find yourself in a positive position arguing the existence of God is impossible.

It seems to me, what he's done is set up the argument so one must either conclude the existence of God is impossible (interestingly an argument that would be positive and holding the burden of proof), or that God exists. If the existence of God's existence was impossible all ontological arguments would fail anyway, and if one thinks God's existence is possible, it shouldn't be hard to agree that there is a possible world that God exists in.
 
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ToHoldNothing

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Even Aquinas, whom I find only nominal agreement with on principles of metaphysics and such, found the ontological argument questionable on the grounds that; even if we all agreed on the standards of a maximally excellent being or such, it doesn't follow that the being exists except in thought, not in fact. Aquinas' demonstration of God's existence was always a posteriori, not a priori, which is what the ontological argument strives to do, which honestly depends on modal logical arguments.
 
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