The Only Acceptable Worship

[Purpletigy]

Music can be a vehicle of worship, but it is not worship. Worship is an action or state of the heart. You can worship God through prayer, working at a soup kitchen, painting (very cool, Purple), etc. My mother, an interpreter for the deaf, does sign language to praise and worship songs.

amen!

Ever hear the song "Heart of Worship"? It speaks of these very things.

I'm coming back to the heart of worship, and it's all about you, it's all about you Jesus.

I connect with God through music. When I am playing my guitar and singing, no matter if it be in front of 400 people or by myself in the church chapel, I am with God and no one else. When I see people worshiping to P&W music, just laying themselves before God and seeking His face, I can't imagine how anyone could say that they are sinning! If anything, I would say that those who would deny anyone a way to worship God are the ones who are
inhibiting the Kingdom of God.[/QUOTE]
Amen! And that's the exact reason why Michal was struck barren when she judged David's heart. She degraded the worship that was in David's heart for God. No one knows the heart of a man but God. For anyone to judge his praise, is dangerous. And what of the man who has no psalter or bible to sing a psalms? does he loose his license to praise? And will he remain in heaviness because he does not have the proper garment of praise? (Isaiah) God came to be reunited with his children. If God inhabits the praises of his people, don't you think that the death of Christ did the job? Do you really think that singing only the Psalms would cause God to inhabit us as opposed to his rejecting us because of whether it was a psalms or not? The bible says that if we don't cry out, the rocks will. Whether I use a psalms as part of my worship or not, I choose to worship.

 

[Quiet Storm]

No matter what type of worship you do someone will always have a problem with it.

If that's not the truth, I don't know what is.

 

[Kelly]

God wants creativity and most importantly honesty. I've heard pastors on the radio claim that the antichrist is christian rock in the church - because drums were not found in the bible as a form of worship.

Join me now by doing your best 'talk to the hand' pose, turn your head aside in disappointment and say

"WHa-evaahhh!!"

Better throw out that organ and those microphones!

 

[Spicy McHaggis]

God wants creativity and most importantly honesty. I've heard pastors on the radio claim that the antichrist is christian rock in the church - because drums were not found in the bible as a form of worship.

Join me now by doing your best 'talk to the hand' pose, turn your head aside in disappointment and say

"WHa-evaahhh!!"

Better throw out that organ and those microphones!

If we all just throw out everything that's NOT in the Bible, we'd also have to stop broadcasting services over the radio too. If course, the radio is just a tool to get the message out. An Instrument is a tool to get the message out, i.e. express your God given talents in a form of worship.

 

[Spicy McHaggis]

Music can be a vehicle of worship, but it is not worship. Worship is an action or state of the heart. You can worship God through prayer, working at a soup kitchen, painting (very cool, Purple), etc. My mother, an interpreter for the deaf, does sign language to praise and worship songs.

amen!
.

IMHO, you can praise God by smoting a softball into left ceter field while playing on your Church League.

I don't think Jesus concetrated on the details so much as the heart of the worshiper.

All in all, I'm very wary of most "this is the ONLY way..." statements.

 

[Godsgrace]

I love the Spirit that moves me in song. God loves to hear our whorsip chants. No one can ever convince me that fellowship in The true SPIRIT of GOD is anything other than TRUE WHORSHIP to HIM....

 

[Higgaion]

Purpletigy dude, no offense but that's wayyyy too much to read. I read quite a bit, and it's too much dogma for my blood. I just don’t care to go there.

Hi Purple, I’m sorry to hear that. What do you mean by too much “dogma”? I’m afraid maybe you’re being somewhat hasty and closeminded to a view that you believe, a priori, can’t possibly have any validity to it. I hope that’s not the case, but it seems to be your attitude.

 

[Higgaion]

WorshipGuy The main problem here is that the original poster (and the authors of his linked resources) assume that worship = music. This is not the case.

Hi Guy, you may have got that impression but such is not actually the case. It’s not even about music, per se. Singing of Psalms is a type of music and is an element or “ordinance” of worship, as is preaching and administration of the sacraments. This is about what is or isn’t allowable in worship and how we can know it.

worship: 1. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object. 2. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed. 3. Ardent devotion; adoration.

I don't even see music in that definition. Looks like worship is less about what you do and more about WHY you do it. =)

First, I have no real objection to that definition of worship insofar as it lines up with God’s word. We must recognize it is GOD, in the Bible, who defines worship, not Webster’s, and though the attitude of the heart and WHY we do it IS important, it isn’t the only consideration. What we DO is also very much a part of it. We can unknowingly do things that are displeasing to the Lord. Biblical literacy is at a very low point in our day, but ignorance is not an excuse for disobedience.

Music can be a vehicle of worship, but it is not worship. Worship is an action or state of the heart. You can worship God through prayer, working at a soup kitchen, painting (very cool, Purple), etc. My mother, an interpreter for the deaf, does sign language to praise and worship songs.

I would answer that by saying that here we are talking about “corporate worship”, or the public coming together of believers on the Lord’s day to offer worship, which is different from what you described above. All those things are ways for individuals to reverently serve God with a godly (or worshipful, if you will) attitude, which is good don’t get me wrong, but again, not the same thing.

As has already been stated, God doesn't care about the music or even the lyrics when a song is used for worship.

Oh REALLY??? And how do you know that? It’s an honest question. Did you get it from the Bible, or is it something you just “know”?

The Bible says to make a joyful noise to the Lord, so God doesn't even care if you sound good when you sing.

I’d say that’s a questionable interpretation.

God sees your heart. God wants our love (Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." Matt 22:37) We could sing Psalms all day, but if our heart was not worshiping God, he wouldn't care that we were singing Psalms.

That’s very true!

We could sing P&W songs all day, the same thing applies. Ever hear the song "Heart of Worship"? It speaks of these very things.

Here’s where I disagree. No, I’m afraid I haven’t heard that song, but if it’s true that God has told us how to worship him, giving us the inspired Psalms as a hymnbook, and has ruled out man-made compositions, then we can be sure he will be most angry if we ignore his command and assert our own autonomy.

With that said, my name may give it away, but I'm a worship leader. I've been leading praise and worship music for the past 6 years. When I see something like this that says that P&W is against the will of God and is a sin (I've heard it before), I start to see red. How dare another human tell me how I should or should not worship MY God, as if the type of music matters!

I understand that this is a personal issue for you and you’re sensitive, which is why I’m trying to be irenic. It’s not my intention to make you or anyone else mad, though that’s probably unavoidable. I don’t find anything in the Bible about “worship leaders”. I think the pastor is supposed to direct all phases of worship, but leaving that aside, instead of just “seeing red” whenever someone speaks against P&W music, have you ever actually listened to their arguments, gone and researched it on your own, CONSIDERED the POSSIBILITY that you may hold some incorrect beliefs?


You ask, “How dare another human tell me how I should or should not worship MY God, as if the type of music matters!"


The answer to that is simple. Do you think that people who tell you how you should worship “your” God (I thought he was everyone’s God, period) do so just to annoy you and be buzzkills? Do you think they are saying that they’ve decided this and therefore you should submit to their opinion based merely on their authority? Or are they saying that such and such is wrong while this or that is right because the BIBLE says so? I can’t speak for everyone, but when I do it, I use the Bible as my authority. Now, some may question whether my understanding of what it says is correct, but in no way do I ever tell anyone that they’re sinning based on my personal opinion or preferences.

I connect with God through music. Different people worship or connect with God in different ways, my main way just happens to be music. When I am playing my guitar and singing, no matter if it be in front of 400 people or by myself in the church chapel, I am with God and no one else. When I see people worshiping to P&W music, just laying themselves before God and seeking His face, I can't imagine how anyone could say that they are sinning! If anything, I would say that those who would deny anyone a way to worship God are the ones who are inhibiting the Kingdom of God.

Which is why I so strongly urge you to carefully read the entirety of both the aforementioned articles. Do we approach a transcendent, unspeakably holy and powerful God on our own terms or his?


Read the OT. Not one time will you find God allowing, encouraging etc. his people Israel to worship him in any way they saw fit, as long as they weren’t blatantly sinning. In fact, when they did, he sometimes KILLED them for it. OT worship was regulated and dictated by God in exacting, painstaking detail, from which there was to be no divergence whatsoever.

This did NOT change in the New Testament. God wasn’t concerned about people getting to exercise their “creativity” or express their personal devotion by coming up with innovations all the time. Man is sinful. Intensely sinful, and all he puts his hand to he corrupts. He is not, and cannot be, left to his own devices in worship.

As Schwertley notes,


"The testimony of Scripture and history is very clear that human innovations in worship are a fountain of heresy and idolatry. God regards adding or subtracting from what He has commanded as sinful — “will worship.”

That so many churches ignore and even ridicule such an important and clear teaching of God’s word shows the widespread declension and apostasy in our day.

The worshiping of God is a serious matter. The contrast between modern evangelicalism’s comedy, skits, and entertainment with what God has commanded should make Christians tremble with fear. Girardeau writes: ‘God is seen manifesting a most vehement jealousy in protecting the purity of his worship. Any attempt to assert the judgement, the will, the taste of man apart from the express warrant of his Word, and to introduce in his worship human inventions, devices, and methods was overtaken by immediate retribution and rebuked by the thunderbolts of his wrath.’”

http://www.fpcr.org/girardeau/Girardeau%20on%20Instrumental%20Music.htm

 

[Worship Guy]

Higg, you say "its not even about music, per se" then continue in your post as if you never said that. Look up worship in the bible... do you see how often it is used? And how? A few examples:
Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. Matt 28:9


Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him. John 9:38



So when the bible says they worshiped Jesus... it implied that they broke out the sacrificial alter and began singing psalms?



You say that the NT did not change worship from the OT... and that WHAT we do is just as important as WHY we do. Soo...



The whole assembly bowed in worship, while the singers sang and the trumpeters played. All this continued until the sacrifice of the burnt offering was completed. 2 Chronicles 29:28



I've never seen an animal sacrificed in church before. Does your service do this?



I can't seem to find where God ever punished or killed anyone for finding new ways to worship God. The only thing I see is where God's wrath came because they were worshiping other gods and idols. This is hardly the same thing, contrary to what Schwertly says. To assume that innovations in worship are the basis for heresy and idolatry is baseless and appaling. That is calling our worship sinning... and you do not expect people to get upset? And along those same lines... since God kills those who worship "incorrectly" I guess we're all ok since no one has ever been killed while singing P&W. Whew... that's a relief.



You say the OT doesn't encourage finding new ways to worship. In fact:



Sing to the LORD a new song; sing to the LORD , all the earth. Psalm 96:1



so even the psalms tell us to sing new songs (also in Isaiah.) Also, John in Revelation tell us that a new song will be sung. Assuming everyone can agree that these events in Revelation are in the future, even the elders and the 144,000 are going to be making up new songs in the future.



So yet again, worship is not what you do or how you do it, it is the state of your heart and the "why" or the reason you do it. And yes, it is scriptural:



The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men. Isaiah 29:13 (also Hebrews 29:13)

You see, it seems that God is concerned with the hearts of His people more than the "rules" of worship. Those who attempt to bind people with the law are exactly the type of people Jesus spoke against in the NT. I would not want to be someone who is trying to derail another person's worship, esp. since that worship is "in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks." (John 4:23) And do not assume to know when or if someone is worshiping in spirit and truth. Be careful that in your pursuit of the law, you do not make the Law your god and blind yourself to the true worship that is going on around you.

edit - and in response to "I don't find anything in the Bible about 'worship leaders'" check out the begining of Psalms 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, etc. They refer to Chief Musician, choir directors, choirmaster, director of music... depending on your translation, of course. (Also at the end of Habakkuk)

 

[Purpletigy]

[/font][/color]

Hi Purple, I’m sorry to hear that. What do you mean by too much “dogma”? I’m afraid maybe you’re being somewhat hasty and closeminded to a view that you believe, a priori, can’t possibly have any validity to it. I hope that’s not the case, but it seems to be your attitude.

I have to publically appologize to you here... I was talking about that web site that was sent. That was the part that was "too much dogma"... not your earlier post. I appologize as I was fairly new too and thought that was what you were refering too.

 

[Purpletigy]

IMHO, you can praise God by smoting a softball into left ceter field while playing on your Church League.

I don't think Jesus concetrated on the details so much as the heart of the worshiper.

All in all, I'm very wary of most "this is the ONLY way..." statements.

that was actually a quote from worship guy... I was trying to quote him, but kind of messed it up. lol!

 

[Purpletigy]

If we all just throw out everything that's NOT in the Bible, we'd also have to stop broadcasting services over the radio too. If course, the radio is just a tool to get the message out. An Instrument is a tool to get the message out, i.e. express your God given talents in a form of worship.

amen kelly and iklepac

 

[Purpletigy]

IMHO, you can praise God by smoting a softball into left ceter field while playing on your Church League.

I don't think Jesus concetrated on the details so much as the heart of the worshiper.

All in all, I'm very wary of most "this is the ONLY way..." statements.

amen... I agree totally... there are many hebrew words for worshipping. For a God who made so many species of each type of animal, I can't possibly concieve with him being satisfied to "only way"s either EXCEPT that they are in spirit & in truth, mixed with sincerity, and are not ungodly (such as something ungodly as trying to smoke pot to the glory of God... that just doesn't work).

 

[Purpletigy]

You say the OT doesn't encourage finding new ways to worship. In fact:


Sing to the LORD a new song; sing to the LORD , all the earth. Psalm 96:1



so even the psalms tell us to sing new songs (also in Isaiah.)

Amen!

John in Revelation tell us that a new song will be sung. Assuming everyone can agree that these events in Revelation are in the future, even the elders and the 144,000 are going to be making up new songs in the future.



And yes, it is scriptural:



The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men. Isaiah 29:13 (also Hebrews 29:13)

You see, it seems that God is concerned with the hearts of His people more than the "rules" of worship. Those who attempt to bind people with the law are exactly the type of people Jesus spoke against in the NT. I would not want to be someone who is trying to derail another person's worship, esp. since that worship is "in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks." (John 4:23) And do not assume to know when or if someone is worshiping in spirit and truth. Be careful that in your pursuit of the law, you do not make the Law your god and blind yourself to the true worship that is going on around you.

[/QUOTE]
amen again! the problem is this: What did people sing BEFORE the Psalms? And why didn't they all die? You assume that the only songs ever sung were the Psalms, when if you studied Jewish History and culture, you'd find many many songs sung that were not Psalms. To get really technical, in John 1:1-4 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men." So if you are saying that the only way to praise is to praise with the Psalms, then you are not praising the fullness of Christ, who is the full word of God, the Bible. The Psalms does not liberally talk about the resurection of Christ. In fact, it does not mention the name of Jesus, Joshua/Yeshua (the Hebrew form of Jesus) or, some of the other names of God listed in the Bible. Why would I only use the Psalms to worship God, that does not include the very act of the reason that I worship him? While there is parabolic mention of Jesus in the Psalms, there is not a definate description of him there. There are many forms of worship. Go look up what the name shigionoth means. It's one of many hebrew words of praise. And as I stated earlier, why would a God who made how many animals? and how many species of animals, how many types and kinds of animals, trees, and even people, yet he would tie his creation down to just singing psalms? You see, with your kind of thinking, and maybe I'm being presumptuous on my part, we should all be praying in King James "thou, thine, thy, and thee" to assume a look of holiness, when God looks on our heart. And for those who have no bibles in third world countries... you honestly think God would kill them for singing a song in worship to God that was not in the psalms. That's not the God I serve. He's into relationship... not being a pharasee and passing wierd laws so he can kill people.

 

[EliasEmmanuel]

"Hi Guy, you may have got that impression but such is not actually the case. It’s not even about music, per se. Singing of Psalms is a type of music and is an element or “ordinance” of worship, as is preaching and administration of the sacraments. This is about what is or isn’t allowable in worship and how we can know it."
"Biblical literacy is at a very low point in our day, but ignorance is not an excuse for disobedience."
"Oh REALLY??? And how do you know that? It’s an honest question. Did you get it from the Bible, or is it something you just “know”?" "Here’s where I disagree. No, I’m afraid I haven’t heard that song, but if it’s true that God has told us how to worship him, giving us the inspired Psalms as a hymnbook, and has ruled out man-made compositions, then we can be sure he will be most angry if we ignore his command and assert our own autonomy."

In all of the above statements, you refer to some ordinance laid down by God proclaiming that the psalms alone are "approved" for use in corporate worship and the use of any other songs constitutes disobediance. But for all you've said how clear and obvious this is, you havn't yet shown us where it is written. I'd appreciate if you did, especially if you're going to continue talking about the widespread biblical ignorance that's supposedly led us to the current state of worship. Nowhere in my reading of scripture have I seen this laid forth.

Actually, many scholars suspect that Phillipians 2:6-11 is a quotation from a hymn sung by the early church. Were they in disobediance? And was Paul teaching falsely when he said:

"Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ." - Ephesians 5:19-20

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God." - Colossians 3:16

He obviously makes reference to songs other than the Psalms here, even "making music in your heart".

Personally... I think the claim that the psalms were given as God's "accepted hymnal" is one that is rooted in a misunderstanding of scripture and why it was given, and a claim that can only end in legalism. You said that outside of the guidelines you've mentioned, we can only operate in our fallen intellect which "corrupts everything it touches", but that completely leaves out or discounts the work of the Holy Spirit in people's hearts, minds and creativity.

Do you think they are saying that they’ve decided this and therefore you should submit to their opinion based merely on their authority? Or are they saying that such and such is wrong while this or that is right because the BIBLE says so? I can’t speak for everyone, but when I do it, I use the Bible as my authority. Now, some may question whether my understanding of what it says is correct, but in no way do I ever tell anyone that they’re sinning based on my personal opinion or preferences.

But as far as I can see, you havn't laid down a biblical reason for your claim. You've said "the bible says so" without showing where.

Do we approach a transcendent, unspeakably holy and powerful God on our own terms or his?

That transcendent, unspeakably holy and powerful God seemed to not have a problem with coming to us on our own terms.

 

[Purpletigy]

well said!!!!

 

[Higgaion]

amen again! the problem is this: What did people sing BEFORE the Psalms?

I don’t know. It would appear that singing was not always an element of worship. It’s not really a problem, though when we keep our focus on the subject at hand, which isn’t an inquiry into what people sang before the Psalms, but what, if anything, is required of us by God.

And why didn't they all die?

You’re assuming that they did sing something when we don’t know that and you’re also assuming that by doing so they were violating God’s commands, which we don’t know either.

You assume that the only songs ever sung were the Psalms, when if you studied Jewish History and culture, you'd find many many songs sung that were not Psalms.

First, I’m not assuming anything. Like most, for most of my life I assumed that we have great freedom and latitude in worship, but I’ve come to realize that was unfounded on anything other than my opinion and the milieu I was raised in. Next, thought it’s true that there are biblical passages that record other songs, a study of Jewish history and culture will not reveal that songs other than the Psalms were sung in corporate WORSHIP.

To get really technical, in John 1:1-4 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men." So if you are saying that the only way to praise is to praise with the Psalms, then you are not praising the fullness of Christ, who is the full word of God, the Bible.

Huh?

The Psalms does not liberally talk about the resurection of Christ. In fact, it does not mention the name of Jesus, Joshua/Yeshua (the Hebrew form of Jesus) or, some of the other names of God listed in the Bible.

They talk a great deal about he Savior, whether by name or not I don’t see that it matters.

Why would I only use the Psalms to worship God, that does not include the very act of the reason that I worship him?

What don’t they include? What is the “very act of the reason” that you worship him?

While there is parabolic mention of Jesus in the Psalms, there is not a definate description of him there.

What do you mean by “definite” description? They talk lots about him being the Savior, God’s suffering servant, prophet, priest and King. And all with perfect theological precision. Why should any goofy 25 yr. old with a guitar and a bad haircut (not a reference to WorshipGuy), who has read maybe half the Bible in his life, be allowed to make up songs that most likely aren’t theologically accurate and don’t give a good “description” of him and then impose these compositions on the church?

There are many forms of worship. Go look up what the name shigionoth means. It's one of many hebrew words of praise.

Well I’d have to know more about what you mean here by “forms” before I said anything.

And as I stated earlier, why would a God who made how many animals? and how many species of animals, how many types and kinds of animals, trees, and even people, yet he would tie his creation down to just singing psalms?

I don’t know, but that isn’t a valid argument. It’s an assertion based on human reasoning, not divine revelation.

You see, with your kind of thinking, and maybe I'm being presumptuous on my part, we should all be praying in King James "thou, thine, thy, and thee" to assume a look of holiness, when God looks on our heart.

I never implied any such thing!

And for those who have no bibles in third world countries... you honestly think God would kill them for singing a song in worship to God that was not in the psalms. That's not the God I serve. He's into relationship... not being a pharasee and passing wierd laws so he can kill people.

LOL. No, I don’t think God would kill them, as he also generally refrains, out of mercy, from killing those in the USA who corrupt his worship. That doesn’t mean it’s ok or that he condones it.

 

[Higgaion]

Higg, you say "its not even about music, per se" then continue in your post as if you never said that.

Hey Guy, huh? I don’t think I did that, but ok. Moving on…

Look up worship in the bible... do you see how often it is used? And how? A few examples:
Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. Matt 28:9

Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him. John 9:38

So when the bible says they worshiped Jesus... it implied that they broke out the sacrificial alter and began singing psalms?

No, it didn’t imply that. You’re making a case argument for something I never objected to. I’m no more saying that than you’re saying it implied they broke out their guitars and amps and composed a P&W song on the spot or made sock puppets and performed a skit. The fact is, it doesn’t say precisely how they worshiped him, but clearly these were acts of individuals encountering face-to-face the incarnation of God and worshiping him by displaying submission and acknowledgment of his deity. They were awed and showed him great reverence. It has no bearing at all on how the church functions corporately and publicly when they’re gathered as one body to offer formal worship on the Lord’s day. Then reverence is shown by obedience to God’s commands.

“And Samuel said, "Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.” 1 Sam 15:22

You say that the NT did not change worship from the OT... and that WHAT we do is just as important as WHY we do. Soo...

The whole assembly bowed in worship, while the singers sang and the trumpeters played. All this continued until the sacrifice of the burnt offering was completed. 2 Chronicles 29:28

I've never seen an animal sacrificed in church before. Does your service do this?

What I said was, “Read the OT. Not one time will you find God allowing, encouraging etc. his people Israel to worship him in any way they saw fit, as long as they weren’t blatantly sinning. Worship was regulated and dictated by God in exacting, painstaking detail, from which there was to be no divergence whatsoever. This did NOT change in the New Testament.”

Note, I did not say that worship didn’t change with the fulfillment of the ceremonial law in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Of course we don’t offer animal sacrifices, because Scripture precludes it on that basis. That isn’t an argument against the regulative principle. Worship has changed in that it’s become simpler, but it hasn’t been deregulated.

I can't seem to find where God ever punished or killed anyone for finding new ways to worship God.

Not just new ways, but ways that were not prescribed, which new ways would fall under. Lev 10:1-2, Deut 12:32, 2 Sam 6:3-7, 1 Sam 10:8 & 1 Sam 13:11-13.

The only thing I see is where God's wrath came because they were worshiping other gods and idols.

Look closer at the verses above. No, God didn’t always kill them for breaking his command, but it’s clear that he was never pleased when men asserted their autonomy to offer unauthorized worship.

To assume that innovations in worship are the basis for heresy and idolatry is baseless and appaling. That is calling our worship sinning... and you do not expect people to get upset?

It is not at all baseless. The entire history of the Church is testimony to this. The early church didn’t innovate. It’s too involved to go into much here, but hymns gradually were incorporated into worship and were chiefly written by heretics as a way of slipping in their deviant views among the common believers. And sure I expect people to get upset, though that’s not why I do it.

And along those same lines... since God kills those who worship "incorrectly" I guess we're all ok since no one has ever been killed while singing P&W. Whew... that's a relief.

That’s not very sound reasoning. I never said he “always” kills them, as he clearly doesn’t. He is very merciful and longsuffering towards us. If he weren’t, we’d all be dead long before we ever got around to violating the law of worship.

You say the OT doesn't encourage finding new ways to worship. In fact:

Sing to the LORD a new song; sing to the LORD , all the earth. Psalm 96:1

so even the psalms tell us to sing new songs (also in Isaiah.)

Also, John in Revelation tell us that a new song will be sung. Assuming everyone can agree that these events in Revelation are in the future, even the elders and the 144,000 are going to be making up new songs in the future.[/quote]

Did you read Schwertley’s response to this?

“The Book of Revelation is apocalyptic literature, and therefore was not meant to be a literal guide or pattern for public worship. If it was, we would all be Romanists, for Revelation describes an “altar” (6:9; 8:3, 5; 9:13; 11:1; 14:18; 16:7); “incense” (8:4); “trumpets” (1:10; 4:1; 8:13; 9:14); “harps” (5:8; 14:2; 15:2) and even the “ark of the covenant” (11:19). We also would have to be mystics, for Revelation has every creature, including birds, insects, jellyfish, and worms, etc., praising God (5:13). Apocalyptic literature uses figurative language and dramatic imagery to teach spiritual lessons. “The important thing in watching a drama is not the props, but the message they help to portray.”37 “The Book of Revelation is filled to overflowing with obscure rites, with thrones and temples, and with a whole host of liturgical acts that cannot possibly relate to our own circumstances of worship. The attempt to derive elements of worship from such apocalyptic literature can only lead to liturgical chaos.”38 Furthermore, even if one wanted to take the apocalyptic scenes of worship in heaven as normative for the church today, they still would not authorize the use of uninspired hymns, for the songs sung by the angels, four living creatures, and sinless heavenly saints “are in the nature of the case inspired compositions, proceeding as they do from heaven itself and the very throne and presence of God.”39 But (as noted) the apocalyptic worship scenes with their altar, incense, harps, and other ceremonial images clearly cannot be applied to the new covenant church without Scripture contradicting itself, which is impossible.

Some writers appeal to the “new song” mentioned in Revelation 14:3 as scriptural authorization for the composing of “new songs” today. A study of this phrase in Scripture, however, will prove that the biblical phrase “new song” has nothing to do with composing new uninspired songs after the close of the canon.

The phrase “new song” in the Old Testament can refer to a song which has as its theme new mercies or new marvels of God’s power (e.g., 40:3; 98:1). But keep in mind that this phrase is only used to describe songs written under divine inspiration. This fact limits “new songs” to the inspired songs of the Bible. Since the phrase “new song” is only used to describe songs written by people who had the prophetic gift, and did not apply to just any Israelite, it therefore certainly does not apply to Isaac Watts, Charles Wesley, or any other uninspired hymn writer. Another meaning of “new song” refers not to a song describing new mercies, but rather to singing a song anew; that is, with a thankful, rejoicing heart; with a new impulse of gratitude. The song may in fact be very old, but as we apply the inspired song experimentally to our own situation, we sing it anew. This is probably the meaning of “sing a new song” in the Psalms, which use the phrase, yet do not discuss new mercies. For example, Psalm 33 uses the phrase “sing a new song,” and then discusses general well-known doctrines: creation, providence, and hope and trust in God. Also, there is a sense in which all the Old Testament songs are “new songs” for the new covenant Christian, in that we sing the Psalms with an understanding and perspective unknown to Old Testament believers. Because of God’s expression of love in and by Christ, Jesus and the Apostle John can even refer to a well-known Old Testament commandment (Lev. 19:18) as a “new commandment” (Jn. 13:34; 1 Jn. 2:7; 2 Jn. 5).40 “

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So yet again, worship is not what you do or how you do it, it is the state of your heart and the "why" or the reason you do it. And yes, it is scriptural:

The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men. Isaiah 29:13 (also Hebrews 29:13)

You see, it seems that God is concerned with the hearts of His people more than the "rules" of worship. Those who attempt to bind people with the law are exactly the type of people Jesus spoke against in the NT.

State of heart is revealed by obedience. “If you love me, keep my commandments.”

I would not want to be someone who is trying to derail another person's worship, esp. since that worship is "in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks." (John 4:23) And do not assume to know when or if someone is worshiping in spirit and truth. Be careful that in your pursuit of the law, you do not make the Law your god and blind yourself to the true worship that is going on around you.

I’m not trying to derail anyone’s worship

edit - and in response to "I don't find anything in the Bible about 'worship leaders'" check out the begining of Psalms 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, etc. They refer to Chief Musician, choir directors, choirmaster, director of music... depending on your translation, of course. (Also at the end of Habakkuk)

That’s right. And those people were specially commissioned for service in the ceremonial, typical OT worship which has now been fulfilled by Christ.

 

[Purpletigy]

Worship was regulated and dictated by God in exacting, painstaking detail, from which there was to be no divergence whatsoever.

where? Show us.

The early church didn’t innovate

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So what do you call Pentecost if that wasn't God's innovation in the early Church? And what do call them laying on hands and receiving the gift of speaking in tongues throughout Acts if this is not innovation?

Also, John in Revelation tell us that a new song will be sung. Assuming everyone can agree that these events in Revelation are in the future, even the elders and the 144,000 are going to be making up new songs in the future.

[/QUOTE]There really isn't any much future... these are the end times... the writing's on the wall.

Did you read Schwertley’s response to this?

No, Schwertley is not in the bible so its irrelevant to the arguement.

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State of heart is revealed by obedience. “If you love me, keep my commandments.”​

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Show us where the bible commands that we have to sing no other songs BUT Psalms.​

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[Purpletigy]

These definitions of worship and praise are taken directly from the Strong's concordance.
For Praise:
hillulim= praises, thanksgiving. Mahalal= praise. Halal= to praise, to boast. Tehillah= is the same as Halal, but you sing halals, psalm. Todah= confession, thanksgiving. Ainesis= a sacrifice of praise. Arete= courage, excellency. Doxa= glory, esteem. Epainos= Praise, commendation; epaineo= to give praise. Barak= to kneel and bless, declare blessing. Zamar= to celebrate before the presence of the Lord with musical instruments. Yadah= to stretch out or lift the hand(s) , confess. Shabach= to praise, glorify with a loud voice. Shebach= to give praise. Eulogeo= to speak well of. Aineo= to praise. Humneo= to sing hymns.
Words for Worship:
Segad= to bow down, do obeisance. Abad= to serve. Shabach= to bow self down. Eusebeo= to be reverent, pious. Therapeuo= to serve, cure, heal. Latreuo= to worship publicly. Proskun= to kiss (the hand) toward. Towdah= the congregation lifts hands in unison. Shigionoth= unorganized, spontanious praise by dancing and singing.

Here are all these Hebrew words of praise, and only ONE of them actually mentions psalms.