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The number one bugger for creationists: C

Polycarp1

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Rather, (and this illustrates how good science works), the Law of Conservation of Matter was a good first approximation of the truth about God's Universe -- "Within a closed system, the amount of matter present is a constant" is true to the extent that no subatomic reactions which are not self-cancelling occur in that system. However, since this includes all radioactivity as well as actual "nuclear reactions" of the power generation/atomic bomb type, it's actually fairly rare -- but the amount of matter converted into energy in, e.g., a hundred cubic feet of propane, while not zero, is so close to it as to be negligible. Even in the sun, 100,000 tons of hydrogen are converted to 99,999.994 tons of helium and a scad of energy. (Those figures are completely made up, because I don't have a handy reference to the actual quantity of either -- but they're accurate in terms of showing order-of-magnitude change -- it takes very little matter loss to produce an immense amount of energy.)

LoCoM was never precisely true -- but before the discovery of radioactivity and Einstein's theoretical work that was proven out by later research, it was a good approximation of the truth. LoCoM&E turns out to be accurate when the field of discussion is expanded to take into account nuclear reactions and radioactive substances.

And it too is subject to revision in the future -- to give you a far-out example, remember that experiment where the precise weight of a dying person is measured during the death process, and it is observed that the body weight decreases by a few milligrams at the moment of death (not attributable to a final exhalation of air, or something). Popular religious writings were quick to suggest that that demonstrates scientifically the existence of a soul -- which would be a reasonable conclusion but not necessarily proven. But join me in a thought experiment about it -- it's tested a thousand times and proves to be valid in all of them. Further, there are a dozen Near-Death Experiences recorded in the course of this, and weight reliably drops by the established few milligrams during the time the person is legally dead and having the NDE, and resumes "life weight" when the person is revived and the NDE ends. Then you might have grounds for a LoCoM+E+S.

Understood, but still if matter is regularly being changed into energy, and matter is fixed (assuming it is naturally) then eventually it would be consumed. Right?
If matter isn't fixed then there must be a proportion of matter being created and destroyed. Destroyed (converted) at a rate of x and created (converted) at a rate of y. Therefore x/y is the proportion of matter destroyed (converted). If that is determined to be (at a minimum) relatively constant, then we can multiply that out and potentially determine the potential age of the universe, in a vacuum, on a tuesday, for a minute and a half while the sun breaks through the clouds, and the experiment is observable and valid.
This would be true if you had a precise rate of conversion for the universe as a whole. But there are a lot of things we don't understand about the universe as a whole, yet. Take for example the solar neutrino deficit -- if there is one thing about stellar physics established, it's that the sun must be undergoing hydrogen fusion by one of two processes in its core, and that these processes will generate neutrinos at a specific rate. While it is extraordinarily difficult to detect neutrinos, it can reliably be done -- and the measurements consistently give actual detection of neutrinos (therefore not a fault in the measuring process) but at a rate only one-third what is predicted by theory. Plus, we can impact two particles in a cyclotron with enough energy laden into them that when they collide, they give off two more particles, converting energy into matter. While this is pretty negligible as a human action, it's quite plausible that there are places, like the accretion disks of black holes and the hearts of pulsars, where this sort of process occurs at a significant rate.

So yeah, it's theoretically possible to do as you say -- but we have a far better chance of figuring out today what hurricanes will form and hit the West Indies and the southeast coast in 2007 than we do of handling that -- they're both classic cases of "chaotic processes" -- meaning that we don't have a sufficient grasp on how they work (and for theoretical reasons involving Goedel's conjecture may never be able to get a sufficient grasp on how they work) to do that sort of prediction/retrogressive study.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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w81minit said:
Well, as I understand it, it has been shelved and rendered obsolete, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or never existed. I wouldn't want another 'you made that up' accusation on my hands.
Scientific laws don't work like that. When the LoCoM was replaced, the scientific community was effectively saying "This law was wrong. It had always been wrong. This one is closer to the truth".

Understood, but still if matter is regularly being changed into energy, and matter is fixed (assuming it is naturally) then eventually it would be consumed. Right?
If matter isn't fixed then there must be a proportion of matter being created and destroyed. Destroyed (converted) at a rate of x and created (converted) at a rate of y. Therefore x/y is the proportion of matter destroyed (converted). If that is determined to be (at a minimum) relatively constant, then we can multiply that out and potentially determine the potential age of the universe, in a vacuum, on a tuesday, for a minute and a half while the sun breaks through the clouds, and the experiment is observable and valid. :sorry:
No, because (a) we don't know the ratio, and (b) not all the mass would ever be converted. Some forms of mass are not so amenable to conversion as hydrogen is. Even there, the four hydrogen neuclei become one helium atom and some positrons; the actual loss of mass is in sub atomic particles far less massive than the protons and neutrons, whose number doesn't change.
 
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Remnant

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Physics_guy said:
People like to play funny word games with metaphysics and physics. One is philosophy, the other is science. Neither string theory nor quantum physics are metaphysical - they are entirely physical. Now some people may come to metaphysical conclusions from them - but that has to do with their personal philosophy and not with the physics involved.

Yup, play word games. Philosophy: pursuit of wisdom, a search for a general understanding of values and reality by chiefly speculative rather than observational means and an analysis of the grounds of and concepts expressing fundamental beliefs. As I stated before, string theory has no OBSERVATIONAL MEANS AND ANALYSIS, so it's considered metaphysical.
 
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w81minit

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Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
Scientific laws don't work like that. When the LoCoM was replaced, the scientific community was effectively saying "This law was wrong. It had always been wrong. This one is closer to the truth".


No, because (a) we don't know the ratio, and (b) not all the mass would ever be converted. Some forms of mass are not so amenable to conversion as hydrogen is. Even there, the four hydrogen neuclei become one helium atom and some positrons; the actual loss of mass is in sub atomic particles far less massive than the protons and neutrons, whose number doesn't change.
Yup, you were right, it is better said the way Polycarp said it. :p

Of course I am just teasing, I mean no disrespect.
 
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aeroz19

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w81minit said:
How yet more annoying is it to have someone tell you what you said is untrue when a google search on their would have demonstrated otherwise? Hey Kettle, Hey Kettle, a mister Pot is out here rambling about something being black.

<looking toward the bench>
Your honor, I move to strike the venom contained in the previous posts from the record and start a clean slate without the venom.

<turning back toward the people> What say you?
I think our reactions can be best described by the following:

We are all in a five star restaurant with very rich people. Suddenly you jump out of your chair and hop onto the table, screaming and dancing and grabbing stuff. Then you throw things at the people next to us.

And then you ask what we say.
 
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Physics_guy

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Yup, play word games. Philosophy: pursuit of wisdom, a search for a general understanding of values and reality by chiefly speculative rather than observational means and an analysis of the grounds of and concepts expressing fundamental beliefs. As I stated before, string theory has no OBSERVATIONAL MEANS AND ANALYSIS, so it's considered metaphysical.

Only if you want to equivocate on the meaning of metaphysical. Go ahead if you like, but you are not using the word correctly. There is nothing philosophical about string theory nor quantum physics. They are both attempts at physcial descriptions of reality and make no metaphysical claims.

But hey - if you want to just keep using the word incorrectly, then fine.
 
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Crispie

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We dont know that God created the stars light be seen now as of some way? We dont know how God created the universe, so we dont know if he somehow affected the light coming from the stars, because remember God was going to use the stars later on to Abraham, so he could of easily changed it somehow. God can do things that go against this universes physics, since he created it.
 
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w81minit

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aeroz19 said:
I think our reactions can be best described by the following:

We are all in a five star restaurant with very rich people. Suddenly you jump out of your chair and hop onto the table, screaming and dancing and grabbing stuff. Then you throw things at the people next to us.

And then you ask what we say.
Hmmmmm.....
I see. Rich people and 5 star eating joints. I guess I'm just a poor, uncivilized, attention seeker.

Now that I know my place....:hug:
 
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Amalthea

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Crispie said:
We dont know that God created the stars light be seen now as of some way? We dont know how God created the universe, so we dont know if he somehow affected the light coming from the stars, because remember God was going to use the stars later on to Abraham, so he could of easily changed it somehow. God can do things that go against this universes physics, since he created it.


That is all well and good, but just don't start trying to say the Bible is scientifically correct at the same time. If you want the supernatural to explain it all then OK. Of course why God would create fake histories and such is a thorny theological question and does paint God into a corner of deceit.
 
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w81minit

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aeroz19 said:
Notice that I said we all were sitting at the table. Therefore, we are all rich and all eating together at the table in the same restaurant.
So I am the attention seeker. Aeroz19, I mean no offense. I've had my quota satisfied for the day. I am trying to understand what you mean by your post. I don't quite understand the metaphor.
 
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Polycarp1

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Crispie said:
We dont know that God created the stars light be seen now as of some way? We dont know how God created the universe, so we dont know if he somehow affected the light coming from the stars, because remember God was going to use the stars later on to Abraham, so he could of easily changed it somehow. God can do things that go against this universes physics, since he created it.
Crispie, if you don't mind, rewrite this with a touch more explanation of what you mean. I think it's an important point that needs discussing -- but I'm a trifle confused as to what you mean by some of what you say, apparently in support of it. (Don't hear this as the Grammar Nazi coming down on you -- I simply am having the traditional message board problem of not understanding clearly what someone else said evidently in a hurry to get the words out, and I don't want to get into an argument about what you didn't mean that I misread what you said as.)
 
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BigBen

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Just a couple of verses...

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

I Corinthians 1:27
But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
 
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Arikay

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You are so right, God made the earth appear spherical and God made it appear to orbit the sun to shame the wise. But we all know that people of true faith believe the truth, that the earth is flat and the sun orbits it.

I love it when people post verses like this and make the assumption that it doesn't apply to them. Which is even more ironic, because its as if they are above us, they are wise and strong... Now see the verse. :)


BigBen said:
Just a couple of verses...

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

I Corinthians 1:27
But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
 
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Cantuar

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Crispie said:
We dont know that God created the stars light be seen now as of some way? We dont know how God created the universe, so we dont know if he somehow affected the light coming from the stars, because remember God was going to use the stars later on to Abraham, so he could of easily changed it somehow. God can do things that go against this universes physics, since he created it.
The scientific method is the way we investigate how God created the universe. If you're going to say that regardless of how things appeared to have been done, they weren't necessarily done that way because God, having created the laws of nature, then proceeded to ignore them at random and do whatever he felt like doing, we might as well give up on science altogether, because it doesn't work under those conditions. Except that it does seem to work. So maybe your scenario isn't correct.
 
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Dale

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Amalthea in post #486:
<< There is no law of physics called the 'Conservation of Matter', period. This whole topic is a matter of physics, the fundamental science of the Universe. A law of Chemistry is not universal in the sense of this discussion. As I listed, and the other poster was obviously mistaken on, manu natural processes are non-chemical. In fact chemical processes are relatively rare in the Universe compared to the non-chemical. When someone makes a statement of the eternal nature of matter and relating such to Creation it is not a high school chemistry lab experiment. We are dealing in physics and there is no such law. >>
*
Reality isn't really divided into Departments. As for chemical processes being rare, they happen wherever two atoms, ions or molecules meet, anywhere in the universe. I have no idea why you keep saying there is no law of conservation of matter, or mass. Although incomplete, it is a useful concept.
 
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Physics_guy

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I have no idea why you keep saying there is no law of conservation of matter, or mass. Although incomplete, it is a useful concept.

Only if you are considering non-nuclear processes. As soon as you add in nuclear processes into the mix (which dominate the Universe, BTW), the Conservation of Matter becomes useless. This has been explained to death however.
 
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Brahe

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aeroz19 said:
I think our reactions can be best described by the following:

We are all in a five star restaurant with very rich people. Suddenly you jump out of your chair and hop onto the table, screaming and dancing and grabbing stuff. Then you throw things at the people next to us.

And then you ask what we say.
Creationists do this dance all too often. They'll insult non-creationists, libel scientists, cut'n'paste arguments that have been invalid for longer than I've been alive, and ignore any information that would correct their misunderstandings.

Then they'll complain of "venom" and try to paint forums in which discussion is possible as snake pits.
 
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Brahe

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Physics_guy said:
Only if you are considering non-nuclear processes. As soon as you add in nuclear processes into the mix (which dominate the Universe, BTW), the Conservation of Matter becomes useless. This has been explained to death however.
Well, we're beating dead horses here constantly as it is...

Consider the masses of a free proton and a free neutron, respectively: 938.27 MeV (1.6726x10^-27 kg) and 939.57 MeV (1.6749x10^-27 kg) respectively.

Now consider the mass of a deuterium nucleus: 1875.61 MeV (3.3436x10^-27 kg). You'll notice that the mass of a deuterium nucleus is less than the sum of the mass of the proton and neutron by 2.23 MeV. An alpha particle (3727.40 MeV) has an even greater difference--28.28 MeV. This difference is not merely measuring error, but is actually due to the nuclear binding energy.

Note that completely ionizing a hydrogen atom takes only 13.6 eV. This is why nuclear reactions are so much more energetic than chemical ones--the nuclear binding energy is on the order of a million times stronger than the electron binding energy.
 
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