The Normal Birth

[Standing Up]

Cyril of Jerusalem said Mary was not a "channel", and held to the e-v of Mary; you seem to have forgotten one "option".

Clement of Alexandria metaphorically expressed Mary as ever-virgin.

No, Clement says scripture is the ever-virgin, not Mary.

"
But, as appears, many even down to our own time regard Mary, on account of the birth of her child, as having been in the puerperal state, although she was not. For some say that, after she brought forth, she was found, when examined, to be a virgin.36663666 [A reference to the sickening and profane history of an apocryphal book, hereafter to be noted. But this language is most noteworthy as an absolute refutation of modern Mariolatry.]
Now such to us are the Scriptures of the Lord, which gave birth to the truth and continue virgin,"
ANF02. Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

IOW, Clement, like Cyril, is saying Mary did not remain a virgin. Such to us are the scriptures that gave birth AND continue virgin. Clement is very clear, very explicit about what is the e-v (scriptures of the Lord) and what is not (mary). Mary gave birth and her virginity was over.

So, at that time, there was no choice but 1 of 2.

 

[Thekla]

No, Clement says scripture is the ever-virgin, not Mary.

"
But, as appears, many even down to our own time regard Mary, on account of the birth of her child, as having been in the puerperal state, although she was not. For some say that, after she brought forth, she was found, when examined, to be a virgin.36663666 [A reference to the sickening and profane history of an apocryphal book, hereafter to be noted. But this language is most noteworthy as an absolute refutation of modern Mariolatry.]
Now such to us are the Scriptures of the Lord, which gave birth to the truth and continue virgin,"
ANF02. Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

IOW, Clement, like Cyril, is saying Mary did not remain a virgin. Such to us are the scriptures that gave birth AND continue virgin. Clement is very clear, very explicit about what is the e-v (scriptures of the Lord) and what is not (mary). Mary gave birth and her virginity was over.

So, at that time, there was no choice but 1 of 2.

Clement uses a metaphoric parallel.

He parallels Mary to the reading of the Scriptures; she hears the word of God aright, keeps it, bears Christ and remains virgin.

Such means "of the type previously mentioned. If Mary does not remain virgin, then Clement has no parallel to make with Scripture.

This concept, metaphoric parallelism denoted by the use of "such", is far too conceptually simple for you to miss. It does not take a vaunted intellect to "get it".

 

[Thekla]

Here:


such |sə ch |
adjective, predeterminer, & pronoun
1 of the type previously mentioned : [as adj. ] I have been involved in many such courses | [as predeterminer ] I longed to find a kindred spirit, and in him I thought I had found such a person | [as pron. ] we were second-class citizens and they treated us as such.
2 ( such —— as/that) of the type about to be mentioned : [as adj. ] there is no such thing as a free lunch | [as predeterminer ] the farm is organized in such a way that it can be run by two adults | [as pron. ] the wound was such that I had to have stitches.
3 to so high a degree; so great (often used to emphasize a quality) : [as adj. ] this material is of such importance that it has a powerful bearing on the case | [as predeterminer ] autumn's such a beautiful season | [as pron. ] such is the elegance of his typeface that it is still a favorite of designers.

Now such to us are the Scriptures of the Lord, which gave birth to the truth and continue virgin,"

Such -- same as

 

[Standing Up]

But, as appears, many even down to our own time regard Mary, on account of the birth of her child, as having been in the puerperal state, although she was not. For some say that, after she brought forth, she was found, when examined, to be a virgin.36663666 [A reference to the sickening and profane history of an apocryphal book, hereafter to be noted. But this language is most noteworthy as an absolute refutation of modern Mariolatry.]
Now such to us are the Scriptures of the Lord, which gave birth to the truth and continue virgin,"
ANF02. Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Clement uses a metaphoric parallel.

A contrast. Read the pronouns that contrast. Some (not Clement) say Mary remained a virgin. Such to us (including Clement) are the scriptures.

Some say Mary on account of the birth, remained in the birthlike state for (because) some say she remained a virgin. Now such to us, to Clement, are the scriptures that gave birth and continue virgin.

Mary remained a virgin some (like EO and RC) say. We/us (Clement, SU, etc) say such are the scriptures of the Lord that give birth to truth and continue virgin.

 

[Thekla]

But, as appears, many even down to our own time regard Mary, on account of the birth of her child, as having been in the puerperal state, although she was not. For some say that, after she brought forth, she was found, when examined, to be a virgin.36663666 [A reference to the sickening and profane history of an apocryphal book, hereafter to be noted. But this language is most noteworthy as an absolute refutation of modern Mariolatry.]
Now such to us are the Scriptures of the Lord, which gave birth to the truth and continue virgin,"
ANF02. Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) - Christian Classics Ethereal Library



A contrast. Read the pronouns that contrast. Some (not Clement) say Mary remained a virgin. Such to us (including Clement) are the scriptures.

Some say Mary on account of the birth, remained in the birthlike state for (because) some say she remained a virgin. Now such to us, to Clement, are the scriptures that gave birth and continue virgin.

Mary remained a virgin some (like EO and RC) say. We/us (Clement, SU, etc) say such are the scriptures of the Lord that give birth to truth and continue virgin.

Building on what some say, he offers a like/such which is applicable to all.

(Some is not a contrast. "But, on the other hand, unlike", etc. are contrasts. Some is a pronoun. Pronouns don't contrast, they define.)

 

[Dorothea]

I didn't know birthing the Savior of the World was considered a Normal Birth.

 

[Standing Up]

Building on what some say, he offers a like/such which is applicable to all.

(Some is not a contrast. "But, on the other hand, unlike", etc. are contrasts. Some is a pronoun. Pronouns don't contrast, they define.)

Yes, "some" is a pronoun. The contrast is between what some/they say (mary birthed and remained virgin) and what we/us say (scripture birthed and remained virgin).

SOME say mary is e-v. Such (e-v) to US is the scripture of the Lord that birthed and remained virgin.

PS. You may disagree of course with Clement of Alexandria, but that is what he is saying.

 

[Cappadocious]

Which evangelical bible college did you go to?

Are you a fan of Zizek or Barth?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Which evangelical bible college did you go to?

Are you a fan of Zizek or Barth?

Is Barth allowed at most "Bible Colleges"?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Cappadocious]

Is Barth allowed at most "Bible Colleges"?

-CryptoLutheran

Wheaton probably.

 

[Thekla]

Yes, "some" is a pronoun. The contrast is between what some/they say (mary birthed and remained virgin) and what we/us say (scripture birthed and remained virgin).

SOME say mary is e-v. Such (e-v) to US is the scripture of the Lord that birthed and remained virgin.

PS. You may disagree of course with Clement of Alexandria, but that is what he is saying.

I don't disagree with Clement. I think I've made myself clear, and Clement is clear:
1.Many - did not maintain virginity in birth.
Many - incorrect.
2.Some - maintain virginity.
3.To us (following the idea of e-v) Scriptures (aright) maintain virginity.

Clement is echoing Luke; " yes ( and moving deeper into the blessedness) blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it."

The contrast occurs in the first sentence between many who claim she was in the puerperal state and Clement's negation of this claim. The "some" statement continues the contrast with the claim of the 'many'. Then deeper into the matter, and its application in the life of every Christian.

I don't disagree with Clement; I do disagree with your convoluted reading of Clement.

 

[Standing Up]

I don't disagree with Clement. I think I've made myself clear, and Clement is clear:
1.Many - did not maintain virginity in birth.
Many - incorrect.
2.Some - maintain virginity.
3.To us (following the idea of e-v) Scriptures (aright) maintain virginity.

Clement is echoing Luke; " yes ( and moving deeper into the blessedness) blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it."

The contrast occurs in the first sentence between many who claim she was in the puerperal state and Clement's negation of this claim. The "some" statement continues the contrast with the claim of the 'many'. Then deeper into the matter, and its application in the life of every Christian.

I don't disagree with Clement; I do disagree with your convoluted reading of Clement.

But, as appears, many even down to our own time regard Mary, on account of the birth of her child, as having been [present perfect-began in the past and continues] in the puerperal state, although she was not [she truly gave a normal birth; did not remain in the childbirth state; Clement denies what the many say]. For [why do the many say it?] [because] some say that, after she brought forth, she was found, when examined, to be a virgin.
Now [in contrast to the many/some] such [ever-virgin] to us are the Scriptures of the Lord, which gave birth to the truth and continue virgin,"
ANF02. Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

[Thekla]

But, as appears, many even down to our own time regard Mary, on account of the birth of her child, as having been [present perfect-began in the past and continues] in the puerperal state, although she was not [she truly gave a normal birth; did not remain in the childbirth state; Clement denies what the many say]. For [why do the many say it?] [because] some say that, after she brought forth, she was found, when examined, to be a virgin.
Now [in contrast to the many/some] such [ever-virgin] to us are the Scriptures of the Lord, which gave birth to the truth and continue virgin,"
ANF02. Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

The perfect tense denotes something that has been completed, not something that continues: Perfect Tenses

Thus (by sentence):
1.Many/a large number - she gave birth normally and was in the puerperal state (completed).
comment/reversal - but she was not. (she was not in the puerperal state)
2. Some/ a lesser number - she continued virgin
3. to us/ Scriptures - remain/continue virgin

"To us" agrees with the "some" (they are parallel statements - ie continue virgin, remain virgin).

 

[Standing Up]

The perfect tense denotes something that has been completed, not something that continues: Perfect Tenses

Thus (by sentence):
1.Many/a large number - she gave birth normally and was in the puerperal state (completed).
comment/reversal - but she was not. (she was not in the puerperal state)
2. Some/ a lesser number - she continued virgin
3. to us/ Scriptures - remain/continue virgin

"To us" agrees with the "some" (they are parallel statements - ie continue virgin, remain virgin).

Present perfect continuous tense. Her puerperal (childbirth state) began and continued after birth, many said. Not so, says Cyril. They say it because some think after she gave birth she was still a virgin.
To us, scripture gave birth and remains virgin.