The No true Scotsman Fallacy

[bhsmte]

Then why do people hold it against the LDS faith that it rejects the creeds?

Last I checked, there are a whole bunch of Christian denominations for a reason; Christians can't agree on a whole bunch of things.

 

[Ironhold]

This goes for everyone else, too -

Before you try to criticize someone else for what you see as the shortcomings in their belief systems, you should carefully examine your own belief system.

If you don't actually know what you claim to "know", then bad things can happen. I've seen people have breakdowns when they couldn't defend their faith. One good counter-offensive from the people they were hammering sent them over the edge.

 

[bhsmte]

There are no contradictions.

Yes, you stated that and I stated that some disagree with you.

 

[Hammster]

And your proof is?

edit -

Before you start criticizing us for what you see as our perceived failings, you should really examine your own position. I've dealt with too many would-be "heroes of Christianity" who were destroyed as people because they tried to defend a faith that they didn't understand. Once the questions started coming back their way, they couldn't respond and so began to freak out.

I'm not freaking out. And you don't have a short-coming. You have a false belief system. You believe things about God that are not supported in scripture.

 

[bhsmte]

This goes for everyone else, too -

Before you try to criticize someone else for what you see as the shortcomings in their belief systems, you should carefully examine your own belief system.

If you don't actually know what you claim to "know", then bad things can happen. I've seen people have breakdowns when they couldn't defend their faith. One good counter-offensive from the people they were hammering sent them over the edge.

It seems to me, some Christians don't subscribe to the whole; take the log out of your own eye thing and instead, move right to judgment.

 

[Ironhold]

I'm not freaking out. And you don't have a short-coming. You have a false belief system. You believe things about God that are not supported in scripture.

This presumes that what you believe is.

I remember a few years back I encountered a guy who swore that he knew the Bible better than I did... because he was a member of the "right" version of Christianity. Never mind the fact that he hadn't even read the Bible cover-to-cover yet while I'd just finished retiring my first set of scriptures because the spines were falling apart from use. In his eyes, however, being in the "right" version of Christianity trumped any need to have even read the Bible, let alone any sort of independent study.

Dude had a psychotic break within a month. He cracked under the pressure of dealing with a foe who wouldn't roll over and die. When any of us last saw him he was down to copying & pasting entire web pages in the hopes of finding something that would work. It was suspected, however, that he may have had a hand in the denial-of-service attacks that hit the website we were on after his departure.

 

[Hammster]

This presumes that what you believe is.

I remember a few years back I encountered a guy who swore that he knew the Bible better than I did... because he was a member of the "right" version of Christianity. Never mind the fact that he hadn't even read the Bible cover-to-cover yet while I'd just finished retiring my first set of scriptures because the spines were falling apart from use. In his eyes, however, being in the "right" version of Christianity trumped any need to have even read the Bible, let alone any sort of independent study.

Dude had a psychotic break within a month. He cracked under the pressure of dealing with a foe who wouldn't roll over and die. When any of us last saw him he was down to copying & pasting entire web pages in the hopes of finding something that would work. It was suspected, however, that he may have had a hand in the denial-of-service attacks that hit the website we were on after his departure.

That's a neat, or sad, story. But it's not relevant. I'm not trying to convert you. That's up to God.

24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
2 Timothy 2:24-26

 

[MoreCoffee]

This presumes that what you believe is.

I remember a few years back I encountered a guy who swore that he knew the Bible better than I did... because he was a member of the "right" version of Christianity. Never mind the fact that he hadn't even read the Bible cover-to-cover yet while I'd just finished retiring my first set of scriptures because the spines were falling apart from use. In his eyes, however, being in the "right" version of Christianity trumped any need to have even read the Bible, let alone any sort of independent study.

Dude had a psychotic break within a month. He cracked under the pressure of dealing with a foe who wouldn't roll over and die. When any of us last saw him he was down to copying & pasting entire web pages in the hopes of finding something that would work. It was suspected, however, that he may have had a hand in the denial-of-service attacks that hit the website we were on after his departure.

It ought to be noted that in Christianity - as distinct from Latter Day Saints' religion - the holy scriptures are a specific set of writings with a specific set of primary teaching derived from the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ. The additions made by Joseph Smith in his various books (accepted by LDS people as inspired texts) are no part of Christianity. Thus even though LDS people are inclined to self-identify as Christians their self identification is not accepted by the vast majority of Christians.

 

[bhsmte]

This presumes that what you believe is.

I remember a few years back I encountered a guy who swore that he knew the Bible better than I did... because he was a member of the "right" version of Christianity. Never mind the fact that he hadn't even read the Bible cover-to-cover yet while I'd just finished retiring my first set of scriptures because the spines were falling apart from use. In his eyes, however, being in the "right" version of Christianity trumped any need to have even read the Bible, let alone any sort of independent study.

Dude had a psychotic break within a month. He cracked under the pressure of dealing with a foe who wouldn't roll over and die. When any of us last saw him he was down to copying & pasting entire web pages in the hopes of finding something that would work. It was suspected, however, that he may have had a hand in the denial-of-service attacks that hit the website we were on after his departure.

Here is the deal, even people who study the bible as their life and have received advanced education on the same, have differing opinions on the interpretation of scripture. This is why you have so many denominations of Christianity, because interpretations vary and everyone claims theirs is the correct one.

IMO, when you encounter those who insist their interpretation is correct and you are wrong and they just can't let go, it could be the sign of a defensive mechanism they are employing to simply protect their own belief and calm the inner turmoil from encountering interpretations that contradict their own.

In another opinion, I tend to think, folks gravitate towards the interpretation that suits their personal psyche, because the psyche must be satisfied.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Here is the deal, even people who study the bible as their life and have received advanced education on the same, have differing opinions on the interpretation of scripture. This is why you have so many denominations of Christianity, because interpretations vary and everyone claims theirs is the correct one.

IMO, when you encounter those who insist their interpretation is correct and you are wrong and they just can't let go, it could be the sign of a defensive mechanism they are employing to simply protect their own belief and calm the inner turmoil from encountering interpretations that contradict their own.

In another opinion, I tend to think, folks gravitate towards the interpretation that suits their personal psyche, because the psyche must be satisfied.

A neat bit of unconvincing folk psychology there in your post. There is a different explanation available. Namely that the views of christians on matters where they differ are matters of low impact on the overall teaching of christianity and even though some are inclined to advocate their personal opinions and interpretations as true and definitive not many of their interlocutors will accept their stated views as true and definitive expressions of christian faith. Thus, while I am a Catholic and as such have a rather well developed system of interpretation, I accept as christian brethren people whose views on a number of things differ from my own and from the teaching of the Catholic Church. The truth is that as an atheist the things you've written cannot fail to be an outsider's musings about christianity and even if you at some time in the past were a christian the fact that your post is written from an atheistic perspective cannot help but influence the way matters are expressed in it. Christians generally accept one another as Christians even when they disagree on some matters and they do so because they agree with one another on key matters such as those expressed in the Nicene Creed.

 

[GillDouglas]

I would like to discuss the No true Scotsman Fallacy. I don't have experiences with this fallacy being used in different religions, other than in Christianity, though I'm sure it probably is. I noted this fallacy being used several times in my previous discussions of the mistreatment I received over the years by certain Christians. I heard assertions like, "They weren't real Christians," "so-called Christians," and "They don't represent Christianity at all!" But are these assertions actually true? And for the record, I know there is a scripture which says that not everyone who names Christ is a Christian, however.... my question is, how does Christian A determine that Christian B isn't a real Christian? Furthermore, does Christian A have the moral authority to tell Christian B that they aren't a real Christian? And how can Christian A be certain that they are a real Christian?

I encountered the accusation of not being a real Christian many times of the years. If I didn't believe in a particular doctrine or teaching or accept a particular interpretation of scripture, then this accusation would usually be brought up against me. So, here is my personal take on this, as far as I am aware, and I could be mistaken, God isn't limited within the walls of a particular denomination or within the confines of a church doctrine or within certain worship styles or prayers. In other words, I don't believe that God can be put into a box and be held captive or be limited by His own creation. I believe that God, the Creator, can be worshiped in many different ways, even outside the confines of Christianity. Also, I would like to discuss this topic in a civil and respectful manner, without any assertions that non-Christians don't really understand Christianity, therefore, their opinions aren't considered to be valid. Thank you for your time and I look forward to what I hope will be a fruitful discussion.

I had said in another thread that it would be impossible to see how anyone could ever be able to tell who was truly a Christian and who was not. The Bible says that out of faith good works will come, but how could we differentiate the good works of a believer and an unbeliever? If someone tells me they are a Christian, I'm not going to question that because the relationship between them and God is a personal one. Even if by their actions contradict being a Christian, I still find it would be a (false) judgement to assume they're not a Christian. This would be unwarranted and it would only bring judgement upon oneself. Who can know the workings of a man's heart other than God? No one.

 

[morningstar2651]

Wrong.

1. Must be born again.

Anything after that is evidence of 1..

Better than the three requirements previously listed, but vague. This requirement is in Evangelese, but most of us read English instead of Evangelese.

Criteria to be considered a Christian:

1) Must be Trinitarian

2) Must have faith in Christ as Lord God and Savior

3) Must profess the beliefs of the Apostles, Nicene, and Athanasian Creeds (either by professing the creeds or agreeing with the tenets).

All this talk of accepting creeds and doctrines results in a definition that has nothing to do with worshiping God or practicing the teachings of Jesus and everything to do with believing the right things about the nature of God. You're missing the forest for the trees.

I'd also like to point out that it didn't take long for Christians to come in here and argue which Christians aren't Christian enough to be Christian.

 

[bhsmte]

A neat bit of unconvincing folk psychology there in your post. There is a different explanation available. Namely that the views of christians on matters where they differ are matters of low impact on the overall teaching of christianity and even though some are inclined to advocate their personal opinions and interpretations as true and definitive not many of their interlocutors will accept their stated views as true and definitive expressions of christian faith. Thus, while I am a Catholic and as such have a rather well developed system of interpretation, I accept as christian brethren people whose views on a number of things differ from my own and from the teaching of the Catholic Church. The truth is that as an atheist the things you've written cannot fail to be an outsider's musings about christianity and even if you at some time in the past were a christian the fact that your post is written from an atheistic perspective cannot help but influence the way matters are expressed in it. Christians generally accept one another as Christians even when they disagree on some matters and they do so because they agree with one another on key matters such as those expressed in the Nicene Creed.

In regards to psychology, we all have our own unique psychological needs, which develop with a whole bunch of variables over time. Sometimes, our psychological needs can change, as we have life experiences and or acquire knowledge, but that again, is unique to each person.

Let me be clear, just saying the word "psychological" wigs some people out and they think you are referring to abnormal behavior, which is not the case. Being a Christian, being Hindu, being a Muslim or whatever faith beliefs a person has, may indeed be the best thing for them individually, if it makes them a better person and possibly able to cope with life better. The problems typically arise, when a faith belief is used to negatively judge another (just because they disagree) and or if the beliefs require the person do use defense mechanisms to the extreme; like confirmation bias, denial and selective reasoning. Other than that, a certain religious belief may be the best thing for a person.

In regards to differing opinion in Christianity regarding theology, well, some are small and some are not so small and some battles between those of differing denominations are interesting to watch. The last thing is, 2/3 of the worlds population disagree with Christianity. It doesn't make them right or Christians right, it just shows how humans have the capability of forming faith beliefs that are different and each group will claim they have it right.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...

In regards to differing opinion in Christianity regarding theology, well, some are small and some are not so small and some battles between those of differing denominations are interesting to watch. The last thing is, 2/3 of the worlds population disagree with Christianity. It doesn't make them right or Christians right, it just shows how humans have the capability of forming faith beliefs that are different and each group will claim they have it right.

If it is 2/3 that disagree with christianity I guess it must be well over 9/10 that disagree with atheism. Doesn't prove much does it?

 

[morningstar2651]

Nope. You are not born again. You don't have the right Jesus.

It's pronounced Hey-Zeus.

In all seriousness, you're running into the same problem I pointed out previously - relying upon the right interpretation, the right doctrine, accepting the right testimony, etc. as requirements to being Christian. It's not about being right.

In reality it's far simpler - do you follow the teachings of Jesus and do you worship the God of the Christians? If you answer yes to these two questions - you're a Christian.

It takes a lot of arrogance to declare other people aren't real Christians because they disagree with you on some doctrine or scripture, or because they don't believe in Jesus the way you believe in Jesus.

I don't think you realize how absurd your statement I quoted was...I hope gardener Jesus opens your eyes to the absurdity of telling people they don't have the right Jesus...

 

[bhsmte]

If it is 2/3 that disagree with christianity I guess it must be well over 9/10 that disagree with atheism. Doesn't prove much does it?

As I stated, it shows the capability of humans to form faith beliefs, of all types and feeling quite positive, theirs is the right one.

In regards to non believers, they don't have faith beliefs in Gods or religion.

 

[WirSindBettler]

Last I checked, accepting creeds is not a requirement for salvation.

Last I checked, accepting Jesus as savior but denying His equality with the Father and divinity will send you straight down.

 

[MoreCoffee]

As I stated, it shows the capability of humans to form faith beliefs, of all types and feeling quite positive, theirs is the right one.

In regards to non believers, they don't have faith beliefs in Gods or religion.

After listening to the "Four Horsemen" video clip of Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennett, and some other USA guy I can't accept the claim that there's no faith beliefs in atheism even if their faith beliefs are opposed to any gods and goddesses they know about.

 

[morningstar2651]

Last I checked, accepting Jesus as savior but denying His equality with the Father and divinity will send you straight down.

Is Christianity about not going to Hell? Is that the core of the religion - avoiding punishment for believing the wrong thing or believing the wrong way?

That sounds like the worst religion possible - refusing to question the accepted beliefs for fear of Hell and focusing on believing the right things instead of simply worshiping God and doing what Jesus commanded. It also sounds nothing like what Jesus talked about in the gospels.

Remember that Jesus guy? He said some good stuff. You appear to have forgotten about that stuff because you're too busy arguing about the nature of god or how many angels can fit on the head of a pin - stuff that doesn't matter unless...what if you get it wrong!? What if Jesus sends you to Hell because you didn't believe in the him that believes in you believing in him!?

 

[bhsmte]

Is Christianity about not going to Hell? Is that the core of the religion - avoiding punishment for believing the wrong thing or believing the wrong way?

That sounds like the worst religion possible - refusing to question the accepted beliefs for fear of Hell and focusing on believing the right things instead of simply worshiping God and doing what Jesus commanded. It also sounds nothing like what Jesus talked about in the gospels.

Remember that Jesus guy? He said some good stuff. You appear to have forgotten about that stuff because you're too busy arguing about the nature of god or how many angels can fit on the head of a pin - stuff that doesn't matter unless...what if you get it wrong!? What if Jesus sends you to Hell because you didn't believe in the him that believes in you believing in him!?

Is Christianity about not going to Hell? Is that the core of the religion - avoiding punishment for believing the wrong thing or believing the wrong way?

That sounds like the worst religion possible - refusing to question the accepted beliefs for fear of Hell and focusing on believing the right things instead of simply worshiping God and doing what Jesus commanded. It also sounds nothing like what Jesus talked about in the gospels.

Remember that Jesus guy? He said some good stuff. You appear to have forgotten about that stuff because you're too busy arguing about the nature of god or how many angels can fit on the head of a pin - stuff that doesn't matter unless...what if you get it wrong!? What if Jesus sends you to Hell because you didn't believe in the him that believes in you believing in him!?

Very well stated!

Bravo!