The No true Scotsman Fallacy

[Architeuthus]

Don't tell me I'm wrong - tell Jesus he's wrong.

You're not a Christian; I don't think you're really a credible expert on what Jesus and the Apostles said.

Jesus also said: Whoever believes in [the Son] is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgement: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

 

[Hammster]

I would like to discuss the No true Scotsman Fallacy. I don't have experiences with this fallacy being used in different religions, other than in Christianity, though I'm sure it probably is. I noted this fallacy being used several times in my previous discussions of the mistreatment I received over the years by certain Christians. I heard assertions like, "They weren't real Christians," "so-called Christians," and "They don't represent Christianity at all!" But are these assertions actually true? And for the record, I know there is a scripture which says that not everyone who names Christ is a Christian, however.... my question is, how does Christian A determine that Christian B isn't a real Christian? Furthermore, does Christian A have the moral authority to tell Christian B that they aren't a real Christian? And how can Christian A be certain that they are a real Christian?

I encountered the accusation of not being a real Christian many times of the years. If I didn't believe in a particular doctrine or teaching or accept a particular interpretation of scripture, then this accusation would usually be brought up against me. So, here is my personal take on this, as far as I am aware, and I could be mistaken, God isn't limited within the walls of a particular denomination or within the confines of a church doctrine or within certain worship styles or prayers. In other words, I don't believe that God can be put into a box and be held captive or be limited by His own creation. I believe that God, the Creator, can be worshiped in many different ways, even outside the confines of Christianity. Also, I would like to discuss this topic in a civil and respectful manner, without any assertions that non-Christians don't really understand Christianity, therefore, their opinions aren't considered to be valid. Thank you for your time and I look forward to what I hope will be a fruitful discussion.

FYI, I don't talk about or answer questions about my personal spiritual beliefs, because they just that personal, and they are no business to a stranger, least of all to one online, especially when the stranger claims to be Christian.

Seems like you do.

 

[Red Fox]

Seems like you do.

Not my traditional Native beliefs I don't.

I had no intention of criticizing your beliefs. I was just wanting some context for your accusations in the OP. They are vague. I was curious as to what was said and what types of churches they are.

And why does that concern you? I've given all the details I intend to give already in my OP, unless I feel I can trust the person who is asking, which I don't. So, you can keep asking all the questions you want, but since I don't feel like you are someone I can talk to or trust, then I'm not going to answer your questions. And yes, I've already talked to other people in more details about my personal experiences while I was still in the church, but only in private, and only with people I have come to trust.

 

[Architeuthus]

FYI, I don't talk about or answer questions about my personal (non-Christian) spiritual beliefs, because they just that personal, and they are no business to a stranger, least of all to one online.

Then what do we have to talk about? You don't want to talk about your faith, and the rules forbid you to attack ours.

If you want to hold a friendly conversation about non-religious issues, other parts of CF are more appropriate.

 

[Red Fox]

self-edited

 

[Hammster]

I stated several times that I was done with the thread. I then actually went about my life, without a second thought about threads, because I guess it's good to have a life. Then I glance in and find I'm being discussed and dismissed because I wasn't answering questions on other people's time expectations. LOL. The reality is that even if the chapter and verse was laid out here, you all would ignore it. I've stated several times that I have personal experience of this. How do I prove it? Can I bring anyone here to this forum and make them admit they said these things? Uh, no. So, I'm left with my word only, which apparently isn't good enough because along with not being a Christian, I guess I'm also a liar. These attitudes are exactly the problem in Christianity, and the reason why most of my kids have just walked away from church, because of their experiences within churches and with church goers. My husband and I have been badly burned by the behavior of others in two churches and are no longer willing to try again. Two churches may not seem like many, but in both cases we had become members and were absorbed in the body before we saw it clearly. It's usually not immediately apparent. The surface is typically very shiny. We are no longer conned by shiny surfaces. We no longer go to churches. But that doesn't make us nevertheless any less Christian, because what we are is branded into us so deeply.

I have a busy Sunday with family so I won't be checking back. Perhaps I need to say that every time in a thread.

It's not that you didn't answer in a timely fashion. It's that you said you wouldn't answer. So don't mischaracterize what happened.

And since we have no details, we don't know if the churches were bad, you just didn't like them pointing out your sin.

 

[mark46]

We are taught not to judge what is in another's heart. Christianity teaches that we are all separated from God (that is, we are sinners). We have different sins. Our churches are hospitals.

I also ask us to consider that folks are at a very different place in the spectrum of spiritual "development". I put development is quotation marks because I understand that one stage is not better or worse. The reality is that, as humans, we are at different stages.

http://www.exploring-spiritual-development.com/Spiritual-Development-Stages.html

There are those whose understanding of religion is that we are given a set of doctrines, rules and regulations. Those who understand these doctrines as we think that we do are true believers to them. Those who obey the rules and regulations as they understand them are true believers to them.

Fowler and many other wrote about this. I prefer Scott Peck's discussion form The Different Drum (he wrote The Road Less Traveled).

http://factnet.org/stages-spiritual-growth-m-scott-peck-abridged-richard-schwartz

 

[Hammster]

For all we know, some people went to church, things weren't done their way, they complained, nothing changed, so they left in a huff.

And then to the next church. And it must be a conspiracy with the churches because none have met their standards.

 

[A New Dawn]

I agree that Christians need to stop making excuses for the bad behavior of other Christians. That does go on all too often and it's wrong and Christians should be vigilant against it. But, in my experience, it's the exception and not the norm.

The problem here, in this thread, is that you want a bunch of Christians on a website to condemn some Christians that we don't know for doing something wrong although we don't know what it is. All we have from you is that one of them told you you're not a "real Christian" and that you felt bad from the "mistreatment" from many of them (but we don't even know what that mistreatment is). We don't know what churches were involved and even if we did it's likely that none of us are members of nor are familiar with those churches.

So there are two big problems going on here:
1. You expect Christian strangers to provide a validation of your feelings against certain other Christians despite the fact that we don't know them or their churches or even what all that they did, and even if we were told by you it would be your version of the story - does that sound fair in any way?
2. You have some serious issues regarding how you feel about yourself and your own feelings. You are putting the burden for your feelings onto a group of people on a website. You don't know these people, we are nameless and faceless. You don't know enough about us to really trust any of us in any way. Yet you are making declarations that you are deciding your life decisions regarding spirituality based on our behavior not matching what you want from us. You are choosing to let other people control your decisions based on what they think and do, and the whole time these are people that you are blasting as being horrible in one way or another. Don't you see what's wrong with that picture? You relinquish all your control to those you feel are hurting you. I don't know how this makes sense in your mind - it is clearly backwards to me.

I spent my childhood and teen years, until college, at a church and school (run by the same church) where I had problems with some of the members. Some of them were judgmental and mean, as you described. I've been called "not a real Christian". I've been called other things and I was accused of things. I also was one of the most rule-abiding kids in the school and the church, while the biggest rule-breakers were given all sorts of favoritism and attention despite their bad behavior. I hated that and I was angry about it. At the same time, I knew better than to:
1. Let people of their ilk define an entire religion/belief (Christianity) because they are bad apples
2. Let people hurt me because they are warped in their judgment
3. Let people make decisions for me by blaming them for my hurting or anger or bitterness

Instead, I coped with my anger, mostly by remaining faithful to Christ and having His help. I quickly learned that a person wearing the title of "Christian" doesn't mean the person is necessarily "good" or kind. I also learned quickly that putting faith in any person is a certain let-down. I went on to college and re-examined my faith, asked questions, and sought out other churches and Christian groups and organizations. I never lost faith in Christ and I never was angry at Him. That would have been stupid on my part, to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Now, here I am being told by you that I (and others like me) don't understand what you went through, don't know what it's like to be mistreated by "Christians", don't know how damaging people's words can be, etc. I'm being told this by a guy on the internet who himself is allowing other strangers on the internet to decide his decisions on religion rather than using his own mind to think through what's real or not real to him.

And somehow I'm to blame for your problems?

You need to step back and look at your life and figure out what's wrong with yourself. You need to ask yourself why you allow your decisions in life to be driven by other people, especially by the people you deem to be the worst, and by people you don't even know who are posting on an internet forum. There is something very, very wrong with that.

I hope you can find some internal fortitude and start thinking for yourself and making decisions based on what you really believe rather than on the actions of others.

I have to really agree with this. I spent most of my life in a church that I loved. It was unorthodox in that it was a sister church to the LDS church, but it taught Trinitarian beliefs, which more made us heterodox instead of unorthodox. But that is beside the point. I loved that church. Then, it started changing before my eyes. It threw out anything that resembled Christianity, but I did not. Because I did not, I was told by someone very high up in the church that they did not consider me a Sister in Christ. I became extremely angry at that, almost to the point of being verbally abusive on a discussion board owned by that church. I was expelled from that discussion board, but continued to carry that anger around for a couple more years till I got to the point that I hated who I had become. There was a hymn I knew and loved that contained the verse "Come cast your burdens upon the Lord, and trust His constant care." I wanted desperately to be able to do that, but didn't know how. People would say 'just give them to God', but I didn't know what that meant. So I tried to give them to God in the only way I knew how. I handed them to Him, but I still wasn't ready to give them up, so I reclaimed them again within minutes. I tried again a few weeks later, and that time it lasted for maybe an hour, till I felt I still needed to own them. That went on for several months, and the time that I actually let God have them grew and grew, till there came a time I didn't want to reclaim them. I was at peace with the situation. I have realized I can reclaim them any time I want, and I have done so, only to reclaim the pain and anger that went along with them, but why would I want all that in my life?

What I came to find out was that I was never angry at God for any of it. I was angry at the person who said it, and the system that fostered that kind of belief. Once I was out of that system, I could move on with my life. To claim to have been a Christian, with all the relationshipness that entails, to give it up because some human misrepresented the gospel would have been like slicing my own throat, because I found my joy came from Christ, not from the other person, or even the church. Why would you discard the very person who can bring you such immense joy?

 

[A New Dawn]

Has it occurred to you that perhaps your ideal Christian either doesn't exist or is a minuscule minority within an ocean of terrible Christians who do terrible things?

Or maybe it's the same way you look at Islam? It only takes a few (possibly isolated) individuals for you to judge all of Islam.

Or maybe you're one of the people he judges Christianity off of, and you're making things worse with every post you make deriding him for disagreeing with you.

Has it occurred to you that perhaps you bear responsibility for the degredation of these discussions by the way you, yourself, act?

Has it occurred to you that the very reason we are not to judge Christianity on the way others act is because people are sinful and will never measure up to what Christ expects of us. That is why the atonement is necessary.

 

[Hammster]

You are not above reproach. Especially you who criticize your fellow Christians. You will be judged as you have judged, and you have been found lacking.

If nobody can measure up to the standard of what a Christian is, then does that mean that there is No True Christian? Are you all false Christians, or does that moniker only apply to those that disagree with you?

What I propose terrifies you. I propose that there are no false Christians - there are good Christians and terrible Christians, just as there are good people and terrible people. Your church isn't sunshine and rainbows - it has done horrible things to people and you can't keep making excuses about why it's okay to be horrible.

The only Christians that can measure up are the ones in glory. Even Paul said he was the chief among sinners. The best we can do is to be repentant.

 

[smaneck]

I very much like Fowler myself. I loved Scott Peck until I got to the very last chapter of his People of the Lie when he started talking about the demonic. That got a little weird.

We are taught not to judge what is in another's heart. Christianity teaches that we are all separated from God (that is, we are sinners). We have different sins. Our churches are hospitals.

I also ask us to consider that folks are at a very different place in the spectrum of spiritual "development". I put development is quotation marks because I understand that one stage is not better or worse. The reality is that, as humans, we are at different stages.

http://www.exploring-spiritual-development.com/Spiritual-Development-Stages.html

There are those whose understanding of religion is that we are given a set of doctrines, rules and regulations. Those who understand these doctrines as we think that we do are true believers to them. Those who obey the rules and regulations as they understand them are true believers to them.

Fowler and many other wrote about this. I prefer Scott Peck's discussion form The Different Drum (he wrote The Road Less Traveled).

http://factnet.org/stages-spiritual-growth-m-scott-peck-abridged-richard-schwartz

 

[Hammster]

What do you fantasize as being "my sin?" Oh, right, I'm in a mixed race marriage. Huge sin. Well done for pointing that out.

So it's gone from churches not creating a good environment for its members to being the fault of members that their churches behave badly. Well done. You just gave a perfect example of how many churches and Christians operate.

Um, I didn't know you were in a mixed race marriage. And it's not relevant. For one, I don't think it's sinful. Two, my aunt is in a mixed race marriage. So I grew up with it. Three, we have a mixed race couple in my church. I see the wife every Monday on my way out of town. She sells me coffee. And we get along just fine.

So when I asked, I actually had no idea what the issue was.

 

[Hammster]

Jesus' warning about how not everyone who calls him Lord will enter into heaven (Matthew 7:21-23) has been brought up before, being used as an excuse to explain away some other Christians' bad behavior, declaring they weren't Christian in the first place. However, doesn't this warning apply to every Christian and not just to a select few?

No. The warning was to those who tried to use their good works as a basis for "getting in". One isn't saved by what they do. They are saved by trusting in what He has done.

 

[A New Dawn]

You are not above reproach. Especially you who criticize your fellow Christians. You will be judged as you have judged, and you have been found lacking.

And this is where your complete lack of responsibility takes you. I know I am not above reproach, however, I have not criticized "[my] fellow Christians". You have assumed for some reason that I have, despite my lack of criticizing them, and lied about what I have said, over and over, even though I suggested you go back and read what I said, several times.

 

[Architeuthus]

She is as credible as any other person who reads the Bible.

Some of us have read it a little more thoroughly.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

Has it occurred to you that perhaps your ideal Christian either doesn't exist or is a minuscule minority within an ocean of terrible Christians who do terrible things?

Or maybe it's the same way you look at Islam? It only takes a few (possibly isolated) individuals for you to judge all of Islam.

Or maybe you're one of the people she judges Christianity off of, and you're making things worse with every post you make deriding her for disagreeing with you.

Strange. In Christianity it's an ideal miniscule minority in an ocean of terrible, yet in Islam it's a few isolated individuals within the ideal whole? With that kind of stereotyping, why should Christians post a defense? Would it ultimately change your world-view? I highly doubt it.

 

[morningstar2651]

Strange. In Christianity it's an ideal miniscule minority in an ocean of terrible, yet in Islam it's a few isolated individuals within the ideal whole? With that kind of stereotyping, why should Christians post a defense? Would it ultimately change your world-view? I highly doubt it.

I recommend you read the second paragraph before responding next time. I posed multiple possibilities - it's up to you to select the one that makes the most sense to you, not the least sense.

 

[David4223]

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[ImaginaryDay]

I recommend you read the second paragraph before responding next time. I posed multiple possibilities - it's up to you to select the one that makes the most sense to you, not the least sense.

I read it correctly. You suggested a scenario of an isolated few good apples in a group of bad, whereby the group is (rightly) judged; then suggested a scenario of an isolated few bad apples in a group of good (where the group is wrongly judged).

So, again, with these false stereotypes, why should Christians present a defense or have any confidence that it would do any good?