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The New Trend

funyun

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I've noticed a new trend on these boards, one which I hope has not taken flight in the apologetics or Creationism vs. Evolution communities in general, which is that Creationists seem to be learning (gasp!). That's right. It seems that the old PRATT lists have died down (at least temporarily) and have been replaced mainly by ID propaganda (on these forums, led by Wellman-- much, I'm sure, to our collective chagrin).

The Creationists seem to be evolving.

I personally draw quite a parallel between this new Creationist trend and modern bacteria, who have grown to become resistant to antiobiotics, due to our over-infatuation with the latter (Not to get off track, but a phenomenon only possible if evolution is correct). Creationists, using their amazing skills of deductive logic, may have finally realized that the old way of relentless PRATT rambling in an attempt to ware down the enemy, is failing. Thus, they have decided to take another shape, under a different name, employing a different stratagem.

This feeling of mine was brought to a head when in Wellman's Hawking thread Gladiatrix posted a link in which part of the title read "The New Creationism", the subject obviously being Intelligent Design. Aha, I said; I smell a rat. I wouldn't be surprised if this reaches to the highest levels of Creationist organization. I have a feeling pretty soon most of the well-known YEC groups will jump on the bandwagon and adopt their new mantra.

So what's so different about ID anyway? Well, so far, instead of basing all its argumentation on outdated evidence and laughable pseudo-science, ID seems instead to rely on the highly popular Argument From Authority coupled with out-of-context quote-mining (the latter being a technique originally learned and put to good use under IDers' old Creationist guise), whether it be Flew, Hawking, or some "super super smart" Christian evangelist who has "never lost a debate in his life except once, on a semantic technicality". This species is tricky, because though easy to spot, it is convincing enough to sway the minds of, say, 90% of the general population.

Of course, I hope I'm wrong. I hope this is all just in my mind and I'm paranoid and Wellman is an isolated incident. Then again, I have been seeing more and more articles in the newspaper and spots on TV about school boards validating ID, or school boards putting stickers on books saying "evolution is only a theory". Every week, it seems, I hear a new story straight from Alabama about some self-proclaimed scientific expert who only moonlights as a school board member and who "just wants their child to know there's more than one choice". We may see some serious court battles soon in this country.

It's seems to be a growing trend, but I don't know. I'd like feedback to know that I'm not alone, or better yet, that I am. Am I wrong or right? In any case, I wish Hume was still around.
 

reconciliation

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funyun said:
Then again, I have been seeing more and more articles in the newspaper and spots on TV about school boards validating ID, or school boards putting stickers on books saying "evolution is only a theory".
Doesn't that clearly prove that evolution is being challenged strongly - even if some evolutionists sometimes try to claim that wouldn't be the case? I don't find it strange at all that many YECists support the ID-theory; ID doesn't contradict YEC though it doesn't require it. The purpose of the ID-theory seems to be foremostly to falsify the Neo-Darwinian evolutionism.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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It's the old Philip Johnson line - "I'm not trying to convince you of my theory; I'm just not convinced of yours", or words to that effect.

It's much more subtle, this one. It plays on the public's lack of understanding about the nature of science.

The public think that scientific facts are proven facts. They think that science proves things. So what this new strategy does is say "Hey! Look! Evolution isn't proven!"

What it doesn't mention is that neither are atomic theory, germ theory, heliocentricity, or indeed the existence of anything beyond an individual mind (I could be a brain floating through empty space misinterpreting my environment, and you lot are just figments of my imagination).

What it fails to mention also is that this "not proving things" way that science works has been phenomenally successful. Things work, when made according to unproven scientific theories.

And this is where the sticker claiming that evolution is "not proven", whilst strictly speaking correct, is fundamentally dishonest, because by singling out a particular field of science for this disclaimer it implies by contrast that other areas are not "just theories" but "proven scientific fact". It's a clever, and underhand and dishonest, trick played on the public's mind. Creationists should be ashamed of their dirty tricks, but I'm not holding my breath.
 
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Tomk80

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reconciliation said:
Doesn't that clearly prove that evolution is being challenged strongly - even if some evolutionists sometimes try to claim that wouldn't be the case? I don't find it strange at all that many YECists support the ID-theory; ID doesn't contradict YEC though it doesn't require it. The purpose of the ID-theory seems to be foremostly to falsify the Neo-Darwinian evolutionism.
Indeed, the single argument ID-theory has for it, is arguments against evolution. Ie, it relies on a logical fallacy (false dichotomy in this case) to start with already.
Second, it has never actually falsified evolution, only pointed to puzzles which, according to the ID'ists, have no answer. However, an unsolved puzzle does not evidence make.
Third, the ID 'battle' is only fought in schools, not in science. It is a political battle, not a scientific one. Scientifically, the case for evolution is clear cut, it is not challenged. It is only challenged on a political ground by people with a religious stake in the matter.
 
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J

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reconciliation said:
Doesn't that clearly prove that evolution is being challenged strongly - even if some evolutionists sometimes try to claim that wouldn't be the case? I don't find it strange at all that many YECists support the ID-theory; ID doesn't contradict YEC though it doesn't require it. The purpose of the ID-theory seems to be foremostly to falsify the Neo-Darwinian evolutionism.
no, it gives no real indication that evolution is being challenged strongly. The creationists are admittedly putting a bit more effort in, than simply recylcing the old arguments, but it doesn't make their new arguments any better. They have still, after a decade of so of ID and IC to even clearly define what they mean by these things and demonstrate anything other than appeals to authority. They use longer words and borrow from modern science with the attempt to give their musings an air of legitimacy, but to no real avail.
 
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Dragar

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ID seems instead to rely on the highly popular Argument From Authority coupled with out-of-context quote-mining...

The problem seems to be one that haunts a great many debates which involve science (I'm reminded of constantly rebutting Metacrock's Cosmological argument). For some reason, people think that if you can find a quotation from a single respected scientist - even if you have to take it grossly out of context - suddenly your argument has merit.

In areas like evolution, where consensus is almost entirely in favour of evolution (certainly by every scientist I've heard of with a degree from an acredited university), or in areas like the beginnings of the universe - the real bleeding edge of science, where we don't even know what questions to ask, let alone the answers - this tactic merely plays upon the public's ignorance of science and scientific opinion.
 
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napajohn

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Dragar said:
In areas like evolution, where consensus is almost entirely in favour of evolution (certainly by every scientist I've heard of with a degree from an acredited university), or in areas like the beginnings of the universe - the real bleeding edge of science, where we don't even know what questions to ask, let alone the answers - this tactic merely plays upon the public's ignorance of science and scientific opinion.
LOL..next time say this:
"certainly by every scientist I've heard of with a degree from an acredited university ...that also happen to agree with my way of thinking"..hahaha you guys love to make these claims ..too bad even the US Dept of Education doesn't agree with you..If I were you I'd get all your evo friends to shut down Loma Linda University for one since they aren't passing out valid certificates..You guys are so easy to refute is one reason the American public doesn't believe you.
 
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napajohn

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funyun said:
.

Of course, I hope I'm wrong. I hope this is all just in my mind and I'm paranoid and Wellman is an isolated incident. Then again, I have been seeing more and more articles in the newspaper and spots on TV about school boards validating ID, or school boards putting stickers on books saying "evolution is only a theory". .
Yes You're wrong.. the so called movement was opened up when the S Court allowed for intellectual discussions regarding evolution so long as it stayed within the frame of scientific arguments..besides Rick Santorum and many of the evangelicals are beginning to challenge the stranglehold of the NEA and allowing for future ID discussions.
 
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Phred

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funyun said:
I've noticed a new trend on these boards, one which I hope has not taken flight in the apologetics or Creationism vs. Evolution communities in general, which is that Creationists seem to be learning (gasp!).
But what are they learning? All that's happening is that their deceptions are getting less ridiculous. Which is actually insidious, unworthy of praise.

Again, we must be clear. A creationist is never scientific in any manner. The conclusion they've drawn is that creationism is correct. The arguments that have convinced them come from the Bible. A creationist only wanders off into science in an attempt to find respect. (An irony they never seem to understand.) If they came in here and spoke honestly, "creationism is correct because the Bible says so" they'd be laughed at.

Anytime a creationist claims science is the reason for their conclusions they are lying. They know it, you know it, I know it. So what are they really learning? Even a dog stops trying to get out of the yard when the collar shocks it enough.




.​
 
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Phred

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napajohn said:
Yes You're wrong.. the so called movement was opened up when the S Court allowed for intellectual discussions regarding evolution so long as it stayed within the frame of scientific arguments..besides Rick Santorum and many of the evangelicals are beginning to challenge the stranglehold of the NEA and allowing for future ID discussions.
So you can shove your religion down the throats of everyone else. My what a worthy goal.

ID is religious. Taken straight from the Bible. You can't reach the conclusion that ID is correct based upon the scientific information, you can only reach it via the Bible.

Get it into schools and I'll be homeschooling my children, I won't let you create a nation of ignorance to validate your belief.



.​
 
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funyun

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napajohn said:
LOL..next time say this:
"certainly by every scientist I've heard of with a degree from an acredited university ...that also happen to agree with my way of thinking"

"I don't have a degree from an accredited unviersity, but then again I don't really think that matters."
--Kent Hovind

There used to be a time when people fancied they received degrees, upon birth, from the accredited university called Heaven State, and then thought themselves experts. What did they call that time period again? Ah yes, the Dark Ages.

It wasn't until people like Newton, Copernicus, and Galileo came along and this new "Scientific Method" began emerging that actual knowledge was being acquired.

Man, the things you can learn from history.
 
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napajohn

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funyun said:
"I don't have a degree from an accredited unviersity, but then again I don't really think that matters."
--Kent Hovind

There used to be a time when people fancied they received degrees, upon birth, from the accredited university called Heaven State, and then thought themselves experts. What did they call that time period again? Ah yes, the Dark Ages.

It wasn't until people like Newton, Copernicus, and Galileo came along and this new "Scientific Method" began emerging that actual knowledge was being acquired.

Man, the things you can learn from history.
so can you explain how come the US dept of Education doesn't shut down LLU since they don't teach Evolution BUT DO GRANT degrees?..
Since your a history "expert" can you support your claim about Heaven State or is this another evo story created to mock Christianity..by the way you do know that those you listed are creationists and not evolutionists..so I wouldn't bring these people up to trump your support for the science-is-synonymous-with-evolution
If anything it proves that creationists and science can coexist.
 
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FieryBalrog

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yes, Napajohn. Evos are liars and cretins and fools.

:sigh:


BTW, I have not yet heard one argument for ID that is not an argument from ignorance- "we dont currently know how this thing happened, so.... uh... :idea: it was done by a superpowerful being! yea!"

Which actually makes the situation worse, because youre just putting the process up on a pedestal and saying "well, we cant ever learn anything about it." How did the Intelligent Designer create things? "Oh, we cant know." Not only do we not know, we can never know. What a great "scientific theory".

Even better, things that were previously thought to be caused by an Intelligent Designer (lightning, hurricanes, etc.) are now known not be caused by any ID within reasonable limits. Kind of makes you wonder how the IDists keep moving back their little "this is the unknowable IDdidit area" to fit with the advancement of science.

ID, the old God of the Gaps argument again. Humanity loves the god of the gaps, hence Thor, Indra, and the rest.
 
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funyun

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napajohn said:
so can you explain how come the US dept of Education doesn't shut down LLU since they don't teach Evolution BUT DO GRANT degrees?..
Since your a history "expert" can you support your claim about Heaven State or is this another evo story created to mock Christianity..by the way you do know that those you listed are creationists and not evolutionists..so I wouldn't bring these people up to trump your support for the science-is-synonymous-with-evolution
If anything it proves that creationists and science can coexist.

Jeez, everything I said just flew right over your head didn't it?
 
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mhess13

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funyun said:
I've noticed a new trend on these boards, one which I hope has not taken flight in the apologetics or Creationism vs. Evolution communities in general, which is that Creationists seem to be learning (gasp!). That's right. It seems that the old PRATT lists have died down (at least temporarily) and have been replaced mainly by ID propaganda (on these forums, led by Wellman-- much, I'm sure, to our collective chagrin).

The Creationists seem to be evolving.

I personally draw quite a parallel between this new Creationist trend and modern bacteria, who have grown to become resistant to antiobiotics, due to our over-infatuation with the latter (Not to get off track, but a phenomenon only possible if evolution is correct). Creationists, using their amazing skills of deductive logic, may have finally realized that the old way of relentless PRATT rambling in an attempt to ware down the enemy, is failing. Thus, they have decided to take another shape, under a different name, employing a different stratagem.

This feeling of mine was brought to a head when in Wellman's Hawking thread Gladiatrix posted a link in which part of the title read "The New Creationism", the subject obviously being Intelligent Design. Aha, I said; I smell a rat. I wouldn't be surprised if this reaches to the highest levels of Creationist organization. I have a feeling pretty soon most of the well-known YEC groups will jump on the bandwagon and adopt their new mantra.

So what's so different about ID anyway? Well, so far, instead of basing all its argumentation on outdated evidence and laughable pseudo-science, ID seems instead to rely on the highly popular Argument From Authority coupled with out-of-context quote-mining (the latter being a technique originally learned and put to good use under IDers' old Creationist guise), whether it be Flew, Hawking, or some "super super smart" Christian evangelist who has "never lost a debate in his life except once, on a semantic technicality". This species is tricky, because though easy to spot, it is convincing enough to sway the minds of, say, 90% of the general population.

Of course, I hope I'm wrong. I hope this is all just in my mind and I'm paranoid and Wellman is an isolated incident. Then again, I have been seeing more and more articles in the newspaper and spots on TV about school boards validating ID, or school boards putting stickers on books saying "evolution is only a theory". Every week, it seems, I hear a new story straight from Alabama about some self-proclaimed scientific expert who only moonlights as a school board member and who "just wants their child to know there's more than one choice". We may see some serious court battles soon in this country.

It's seems to be a growing trend, but I don't know. I'd like feedback to know that I'm not alone, or better yet, that I am. Am I wrong or right? In any case, I wish Hume was still around.

I'm not evolving. I'm as determined as ever to spread YEC
 
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Vance

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mhess13 said:
I'm not evolving. I'm as determined as ever to spread YEC
Which means people like myself and other devout Christians will have to continue to follow behind you and tear down the stumbling blocks to the Cross you have erected, the barriers which prevent the Gospel from being effective. We will have to continue to do the work as Paul did in the face of the judaizers who also created stumbling blocks, even if in our own humble corner. May God bless our work and I pray that as few souls as possible are lost due to the teaching of YEC'ism.
 
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