Oncedeceived
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That is not what I said Loudmouth. We were talking about the Bacterial Flagellum arising from the type III. That is the claim and I asked for substantiation for that claim.
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That is not what I said Loudmouth. We were talking about the Bacterial Flagellum arising from the type III. That is the claim and I asked for substantiation for that claim.The burden of proof lies with you to show how the bacterial flagellum arose through intelligent design.
That one is actually far easier. Sex determination is something that has evolved multiple times across different lineages. But it's also important to distinguish between triggering genes, such as the presence of a male determining factor on the human Y chromosome and the Sxl gene on the X of fruit flies, and the mechanism of actually making a male or female. For example, the Sxl is a dose dependant signal that, if there is enough of it, triggers the female phenotype. Let's look closer at the gene:Here's another example from the paper:
"Other cases have been documented within the insects. Sexlethal (Sxl) is a ‘master regulatory gene’ that controls sex determination in Drosophila melanogaster through a well characterized pathway of alternative splicing. This pathway appears to be present in at least two other Drosophila species, based on alternate splicing of transcripts. In several other dipterans — including Ceratitis capitata and Musca domestica — however, Sxl is almost certainly not involved in sex determination: although the gene is present, it is not alternatively spliced and is not expressed at the correct time....
...Once again, we can summarize these examples with a quotation from de Beer, “homologous structures need not be controlled by homologous genes”."
http://biology.mcgill.ca/faculty/abouheif/articles/Wray, Abouheif 1998.pdf
Here's another example from the paper:
"Other cases have been documented within the insects. Sexlethal (Sxl) is a ‘master regulatory gene’ that controls sex determination in Drosophila melanogaster through a well characterized pathway of alternative splicing. This pathway appears to be present in at least two other Drosophila species, based on alternate splicing of transcripts. In several other dipterans — including Ceratitis capitata and Musca domestica — however, Sxl is almost certainly not involved in sex determination: although the gene is present, it is not alternatively spliced and is not expressed at the correct time....
...Once again, we can summarize these examples with a quotation from de Beer, “homologous structures need not be controlled by homologous genes”."
http://biology.mcgill.ca/faculty/abouheif/articles/Wray, Abouheif 1998.pdf
That is not what I said Loudmouth. We were talking about the Bacterial Flagellum arising from the type III. That is the claim and I asked for substantiation for that claim.
Where is the research showing it arose from the type III?Where is the ID research showing that it came about through intelligent design?
Where is the research showing it arose from the type III?
It wasn't your claim.I don't know of any. We may not know how the bacterial flagellum came about.
Now, where is the research showing that the bacterial flagellum came about through intelligent design?
My apologies, I should have said "evolved form secretory structures which also developed into type 3 secretory structures."What isn't supported by his sources?
Provide substantiation on the bacterial flagellum arising from a type III secretory structure rather than the other way around.
It wasn't your claim.
Ok, so you are saying that both the Bacterial Flagellum and Type III arose from some previous secretory structures? Do you have evidence you could provide for that scenario?My apologies, I should have said "evolved form secretory structures which also developed into type 3 secretory structures."
I am saying that I am not discussing that at the moment.Where is the ID research demonstrating how the bacterial flagellum arose through intelligent design?
Are you saying that the "icon" of intelligent design has zero research behind it?
Ok, so you are saying that both the Bacterial Flagellum and Type III arose from some previous secretory structures? Do you have evidence you could provide for that scenario?
My point is that I would like evidence showing what Serious claimed. Claims need to be supported. Do you see me claiming in this thread that ID was how the BF arose? It doesn't matter that is what my position is if I am not making a claim in this discussion.Do you have any evidence showing that the bac flag arose through intelligent design? Or do you not require the same of your beliefs that you require of science?
It says that I would like Serious to provide support to her claim.Your silence says it all.
My point is that I would like evidence showing what Serious claimed.
It says that I would like Serious to provide support to her claim.
You are getting off track. The reference was made as an example of homologous structures gaining novel function.Where is the research showing it arose from the type III?
That one is actually far easier. Sex determination is something that has evolved multiple times across different lineages. But it's also important to distinguish between triggering genes, such as the presence of a male determining factor on the human Y chromosome and the Sxl gene on the X of fruit flies, and the mechanism of actually making a male or female. For example, the Sxl is a dose dependant signal that, if there is enough of it, triggers the female phenotype. Let's look closer at the gene:
http://www.sdbonline.org/sites/fly/gene/sexlthl1.htm
You see once again we have interplay between several genes. Sxl is primarily a regulator of other gene's expression, which would make sense since sex determination existed in insects far before fruit fly's Sxl system of triggering it. Switching from Sxl to some other mechanism of triggering sex determination isn't really any different than establishing Sxl sex determination in the first place.
You are getting off track. The reference was made as an example of homologous structures gaining novel function.
If you are simply curious outside the bounds of this conversation, Wikipedia has a decent writeup on it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_flagella
If you are looking to revisit Behe's discredited irreducible complexity arguments,
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB200_1.html
Either way, I'd rather focus on the homologous structures lifepsyop brought up.
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