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That's not supported by any source you've cited.Homologous anatomy can be organized by non-homologous genes.
Right. Novel function can arise from existing genes. As we've known for a long time. Examples include the evolution of the bacterial flagellum from a type 3 secretory structure, an old response to the irreducible complexity argument.Homologous genes can organize non-homologous anatomy.
Yes, I'm sure you believe any information which paints Evolution in an uncertain light is not *meaningful* for the public. The public only needs to see highly sanitized "Why Evolution is True" PR info-packets. They don't need to see any of those pesky facts that will only confuse the issue.
And it's not complex at all.
That's not supported by any source you've cited.
Well you clearly haven't understood it very well.
What? It's just boring, I'm sorry. You're horribly mangling the science and even when actual experts tell you how wrong you are, even when they're telling you how wrong you are about claims about what they would say, you just ignore them. In this case, you clearly don't understand the problem, as you think non-homologous genes form homologous structures (rather than analogous structures).Typical non-response because you have no counter-argument.
What? It's just boring, I'm sorry. You're horribly mangling the science and even when actual experts tell you how wrong you are, even when they're telling you how wrong you are about claims about what they would say, you just ignore them. In this case, you clearly don't understand the problem, as you think non-homologous genes form homologous structures (rather than analogous structures).
I retract my previous statement. I was in error.Non-homologous genes, homologous morphology
A growing number of cases demonstrate that the inverse situation, where genes that are not homologous encode a homologous morphological feature, can also occur. One of the first cases to be recognized involves evolutionary changes in the developmental roles of even-skipped (eve), which encodes a homeodomain transcription factor...
http://biology.mcgill.ca/faculty/abouheif/articles/Wray, Abouheif 1998.pdf
I retract my previous statement. I was in error.
Hold on, let's clarify terms,Yes it is. So you're denying that Homologous anatomy can be organized by non-homologous genes?
State your position.
That's not supported by any source you've cited.
Provide substantiation on the bacterial flagellum arising from a type III secretory structure rather than the other way around.Right. Novel function can arise from existing genes. As we've known for a long time. Examples include the evolution of the bacterial flagellum from a type 3 secretory structure, an old response to the irreducible complexity argument.
As usual. Hand-waving and insults, and dodging my responses because you have no counter-argument. Have you made one substantial post this entire thread?
Provide substantiation on the bacterial flagellum arising from a type III secretory structure rather than the other way around.
You're jumping around. I was addressing your claim that evolutionists would have to invoke convergent genes for convergent anatomy. I explained why they wouldn't. You dodged.
You're wrong. There are many examples of assumed homologous anatomy being organized by non-homologous genes, and homologous genes producing non-homologous anatomy. Here we see again that Evolution can completely fail predictions yet still the data is accommodated.
When is homology not homology? -Wray, Abouheif 1998
Although genes have specific phenotypic consequences in a given species, this functional relationship can clearly change during the course of evolution. Many cases of evolutionary dissociations between homologous genes and homologous morphological features are now known. These dissociations have interesting and important implications for understanding the genetic basis for evolutionary change in morphology.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9914205
This is referred to as the "Homology Problem". It's been known by evolutionists since the 1970's yet the public is never made aware of it, for obvious reasons.
Yes, I'm sure you believe any information which paints Evolution in an uncertain light is not *meaningful* for the public. The public only needs to see highly sanitized "Why Evolution is True" PR info-packets. They don't need to see any of those pesky facts that will only confuse the issue.
And it's not complex at all.
Homologous anatomy can be organized by non-homologous genes.
Homologous genes can organize non-homologous anatomy.
It's very simple, but it's embarrassing for evolutionists because it reveals the self-contradictory nature of their whole basis for inferring homology. So of course it gets swept under the rug just like everything else that casts uncertainty on evolutionary claims.
It's also a good example showing that Evolution theory is not really being tested. Evolution is an amorphous fog enveloping whatever data it comes across.
Non-homologous genes, homologous morphology
A growing number of cases demonstrate that the inverse situation, where genes that are not homologous encode a homologous morphological feature, can also occur. One of the first cases to be recognized involves evolutionary changes in the developmental roles of even-skipped (eve), which encodes a homeodomain transcription factor...
http://biology.mcgill.ca/faculty/abouheif/articles/Wray, Abouheif 1998.pdf
Alright, let's take a look:Non-homologous genes, homologous morphology
A growing number of cases demonstrate that the inverse situation, where genes that are not homologous encode a homologous morphological feature, can also occur. One of the first cases to be recognized involves evolutionary changes in the developmental roles of even-skipped (eve), which encodes a homeodomain transcription factor...
http://biology.mcgill.ca/faculty/abouheif/articles/Wray, Abouheif 1998.pdf
The Gap Genes
The gap genes are so named because mutations in this class of genes cause deletions of several contiguous segments causing a “gap” in the resulting larva. The gap genes read the informational gradients set up by the maternal genes and along with cross-regulatory inputs from other gap genes, become expressed in broad but well-defined domains across the early embryo that roughly correspond to the regions that are deleted in the mutants. All of the gap genes encode transcription factors that act together to regulate expression of the downstream pair-rule genes.
The Pair-Rule Genes
The expression and function of the pair-rule genes reveals the first periodic patterns in the Drosophila embryo. Like the gap genes, the pair-rule class of genes was originally defined through their loss of function phenotypes—in this case, deletions with a two-segment periodicity. Accordingly, most of the pair-rule genes go through a phase of expression consisting of seven stripes—corresponding to a two-segment periodicity—beginning at the syncitial blastoderm stage of the embryo and persisting through cellularization. When the striped pattern for one such pair-rule gene, even-skipped . was first observed, it was thought that the beautiful regularity of the pattern was due to some sort of chemical oscillation that could be modeled with reaction-diffusion equations. Instead, it turns out that stripes are specified individually by the upstream gap and maternal genes acting directly on the DNA regulatory regions that control even-skipped expression. The pair-rule genes encode transcription factors that work together to regulate the final level of the segmentation hierarchy, the segment polarity genes.
The Segment Polarity Genes
The segment polarity genes were also originally identified in genetic screens and named for their mutant phenotypes, which show defects in every segment. These genes are generally expressed in patterns of segmental stripes and include not just transcription factors, but also various receptors, ligands, and enzymes that are used in cell-cell communication, and act to maintain and further refine the pattern of segments that has been elaborated.
The Homeotic Genes
A final category of genes, the homeotic genes, do not act to produce segments, but rather give identity to the segments. Mutations in these genes result in the transformation of one or more segments to the identity of another segment. For example, certain loss of function mutations in proboscipedia cause legs to appear in the place of the adult labial palps. The homeotic genes are primarily regulated by the gap genes, although pair-rule and segment polarity genes also have an important role in defining the precise boundaries of homeotic gene expression. All the homeotic genes encode a family of closely related transcription factors and, in Drosophila, are organized into two complexes on one of the chromosomes. Interestingly, the expression of the home-otic genes along the body axis and their arrangement in the genome are roughly co-linear; homeotic genes expressed in anterior segments of the embryo are situated 3 . in the complex, while genes expressed in the posterior are 5 . in the complex. This co-linear arrangement is highly conserved throughout the bilaterian animals, but the reasons for this chromosomal arrangement are not fully understood.
Oh, I'd take one example of it if it were a good example. One gene that kicks on mid way through not kicking on in those zones at those times isn't necessarily going to mess up everything all the other genes are doing.In what percentage of cases is this true?
Oh, I'd take one example of it if it were a good example. One gene that kicks on mid way through not kicking on in those zones at those times isn't necessarily going to mess up everything all the other genes are doing.
Oh, I'd take one example of it if it were a good example. One gene that kicks on mid way through not kicking on in those zones at those times isn't necessarily going to mess up everything all the other genes are doing.
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