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The Myth of Darwinian Evolution

mark kennedy

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You can't have it both ways and there are ample reason why:

‘Darwinism destroyed the dogma of the Fall upon which the whole intellectual fabric of Christianity rests. For without a Fall there is no redemption, and the whole theory and meaning of the Pauline system is vain.’ (Wells, H.G., Anticipations of the Reactions of Mechanical and Scientific Progress Upon Human Life and Thought)​

The Bible is a book of history and our true lineage is found there, not in the modern mythology of Darwinian evolution. Essential doctrine is at stake and while you can accept evolution as natural history in part rejecting the creation of Adam and original sin runs contrary to Christian Orthodoxy. Accepting human evolution is not a rejection of orthodoxy but the rejection of the special creation of Adam and original sin definitely is. Believing that land dwelling creatures became amphibians, transposed into whale and dolphins are certainly interesting ideas but would have no bearing on doctrinal issues. The doctrine of justification by faith has a central focus, the sin of Adam and it's inextricably linked to special creation. Darwinism knows no bounds, it is actively seeking inroads to Christian conviction.

The New Testament traces back to Adam and no further. Examples of how original sin is tied to justification are numerous, this is just one of many:

Justification by the righteousness and obedience of Christ, is a doctrine that the Scripture teaches in very full terms, Rom. 5:18, 19, “By the righteousness of one, the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so, by the obedience of one, shall all be made righteous.” Here in one verse we are told that we have justification by Christ’s righteousness, and that there might be no room to understand the righteousness spoken of, merely of Christ’s atonement by his suffering the penalty. In the next verse it is put in other terms, and asserted that it is by Christ’s obedience we are made righteous. (Justification by Faith Alone by Jonathan Edwards. 1703-1758)​

Accepting human evolution from that of apes is not only a rejection of the Pauline doctrine of original sin, it's a myth of human ancestry. When the New Testament writers mention Adam they speak of him as the first man and the reason why all of us are under the curse of sin and death. Paul tells us that

'by one man sin entered the world' and 'by one man's offense death reigned'. (Rom 5:12-19).​

Paul ties Adam directly to the need for justification and grace in his exposition of the Gospel in his letter to the Romans. Luke lists Adam in his genealogy calling him 'son of God' indicating he had no human parents but rather was created (Luke 3:23-28). The Apostle Peter writing on the subject of false teachers mentions Paul:

Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:15-16)​

A Brief History of a Fraud:

My concern is simply this, the myth of human lineage linked to ape ancestry contradicts the clear testimony of Scripture and essential doctrine, specifically justification by faith. Paul is clear that all have sinned in Adam and that is the reason that we cannot keep the Mosaic law. Charles Darwin in the preface to ‘On the Origin of Species’ credits Jean-Baptiste Lamarck with being the first man to propose that ‘the doctrine that species, including man, are descended from other species.’ This, Darwin argues, ‘being the result of law, and not of miraculous interposition.’ This is what I have come to recognize as an a priori assumption of exclusively naturalistic explanations for the lineage of all living things. For years I focused exclusively on the Scientific literature regarding Chimpanzee and Human common ancestry and found that the human brain had neither the time nor the means to have evolved from that of apes

Piltdown England was the site of a mass grave during the during the great plague of AD 1348-49. Among the finds at the site were fossil bones of elephant, mastodon, rhinoceros, hippopotamus, beaver, and deer. Piltdown is 20 miles west of Hastings in a tiny hamlet in east Sussex. In a gravel pit used for the repair of roads, Charles Dawson 'discovered' Piltdown Man. It was a fully human cranium with the jaw of an orangutan that convinced mainstream science that Piltdown was a transitional from ape to man. The fossils were discovered between 1908 and 1915 and it was not until 1953, 38-45 years later that Piltdown Man was discovered to be a fraud. (paraphrased from, Bones of Contention, Lebenow, 2004).​

The painstaking process of critical peer review and the demand for direct observation and demonstrative proof are supposed to avoid discrepancies in scientific reporting. In the case of Piltdown Man we are looking at a fraud that perpetuated itself in the corridors of academia for nearly half a century. Neither our political systems, sacred theologies, meticulous histories or critical inquires into natural history are immune to our own willful self deception. The Piltdown scandal is a warning to all who would know our history, you are more easily mislead then you would like to believe.

With that in mind lets explore some of the many offerings laid on the altar of natural history today. Evolution as it applies to natural history is a twisting turning road that is not easily navigated. The discerning traveler will have to keep both an open mind and critically examine the evidence modern science has put before us. The first order of business is to see how this fraudulent fossil evidence was received at the Smithsonian Institute.

"The evidence was there the entire time. Any researcher could have looked at the teeth with a microscope and noticed an artificial wear pattern, or the fact that one tooth had a coat of paint on it. But why didn't anyone recognize this forgery? One reason is that because Piltdown affirmed many scientists' hypotheses, they were reluctant to put it under scientific scrutiny that might have proved it wrong. Museums prominently displayed casts of Piltdown as scientific fact. Ales Hrdlicka, a leading anthropologist here at the Smithsonian, was one of the few scientists to question whether the jaw and cranium went together. But even here in our museum there was an exhibit on display: "Evolution of the Bony Chin" -- from chimpanzee through Piltdown Man to modern humans! "​

It fit the hypothesis of many scientists so no one really looked that critically at it, with an occasional exception. The attitude of many evolutionists I encounter is that all of the evidence is pointing toward common ancestry of man and chimpanzee. As an amateur science buff (some would say rank amateur) I am curious how the evidence is put together to confirm or falsify the various aspects of evolutionary theory. On the other hand as a Creationist the Scriptures are sacred history so I ask you to take a little journey with me. Human evolution as it relates to the transition from apes to human beings cover some 5 to 7 million years.

Sin and death had it's origin (genesis) in Adam, that is how and why 'all' have sinned. Don't get this twisted, Paul is clear that when Adam sinned we did not fast. What my ambiguous opponent is trying to do is to is to distract you from the clear meaning of the text. The Protestant understanding of the text is that we both sinned in Adam and continue to in ourselves because of our fallen nature. The fall itself is an historical account and the conflict between evolution and creation are not about natural science, it's about natural history. What they have done with Darwinism is rewrite human history:

For all have sinned - In Adam, and in their own persons; by a sinful nature, sinful tempers, and sinful actions. And are fallen short of the glory of God - The supreme end of man; short of his image on earth, and the enjoyment of him in heaven. (John Wesley's Notes)

Sin originated with Satan Isaiah 14:12-14, entered the world through Adam Romans 5:12, was, and is, universal, Christ alone excepted ; Romans 3:23; 1 Peter 2:22, incurs the penalties of spiritual and physical death ; Genesis 2:17; 3:19; Ezekiel 18:4,20; Romans 6:23 and has no remedy but in the sacrificial death of Christ ; Hebrews 9:26; Acts 4:12 availed of by faith Acts 13:38,39. Sin may be summarized as threefold: An act, the violation of, or want of obedience to the revealed will of God; a state, absence of righteousness; a nature, enmity toward God. (Scofield Commentary)​

Am I to conclude that Scofield, Wesley and Paul are all mistaken that sin and death entered through Adam. Is there some reason I could logically conclude that the meaning is not both literal and explicit with regards to the sin of Adam?

The modern mystics who imagine life emerging from the Darwinian warm little pond are nothing new under the sun. Mythographers have been attributing to primordial elementals what is rightfully attributed to God since the dawn of time:

The Mesopotamian mythographers took their inspiration from thier own country...When nothing yet had a name, that is to say when nothing had yet been created, they wrote, Apsu (the fresh waters) Tiamat (the salt waters) and Mummu (the clouds) formed together one single confused body:

"When on high the heaven had not been named, Firm ground below had not been called by name, Naught but primordial Apsu, their begetter, and Mummu and Tiamat she who born them all. No reed hut had been matted, no marsh land had appeared, when no gods whatever had been brought into being. Uncalled by name their destinies undetermined. Then it was that the gods were formed withing them." (Ancient Iraq, Georges Roux)

The elemental muse was greater in pagan myths then the gods, they in fact gave rise to them. These naturalistic mechanisms are the creator in the mind of the mythographers of ancient and modern times.

Ok, maybe you are thinking that even though Piltdown was a monumental fraud it can't happen now. You would be wrong, they are fraudulently misrepresenting the genetic evidence on an epic scale.

If we are looking at a gene that is identical in two species both closely and distantly related to other species with the exact same gene with the exact same mutation in the exact same place. That is a pretty compelling argument for common ancestry. In this case I don't think you have anything like that since it works in most mammals and probably is either function on some human populations or repairable in some way. The human being is unique among living systems and diverges from the chimpanzee right down to the sequences of the DNA. For years geneticists have been claiming that we are 99% identical to apes in our DNA.

Time Cover Story: What Makes us Different? Not very much, when you look at our DNA. But those few tiny changes made all the difference in the world

They claim we are 98% the same as chimpanzees in our DNA and they know that this is not true. Why would they lie? Because the mutation rate for hominids does not account for the divergence between chimpanzees and humans. Nature did the exact same thing when announcing the Chimpanzee Genome. They claimed that in our DNA we are 98% the same as chimpanzees and they know this is not true. Type 'chimpanzee genome' into you google search engine and you will find this at the top:

What makes us human? We share more than 98% of our DNA and almost all of our genes with our closest living relative, the chimpanzee. .
Nature Web Focus: The chimpanzee genome

The study they are announcing clearly indicates that the two geneome diverge by at least 100,000,000 more base pairs then Time or Nature are telling you.

Don't believe me? Do the math:

Single-nucleotide substitutions occur at a mean rate of 1.23% between copies of the human and chimpanzee genome, with 1.06% or less corresponding to fixed divergence between the species...On the basis of this analysis, we estimate that the human and chimpanzee genomes each contain 40–45 Mb of species-specific euchromatic sequence, and the indel differences between the genomes thus total 90 Mb. This difference corresponds to 3% of both genomes and dwarfs the 1.23% difference resulting from nucleotide substitutions; this confirms and extends several recent studies 63, 64, 65, 66, 67. (Initial sequence of the chimpanzee genome and comparison with the human genome, Nature Sept 2005)​

That includes 5 previous studies that puts divergence at close to 5% but they still say it's 98% and no one calls them on it. Did you ever notice that there are no chimpanzee ancestors represented in the fossil record going back at least 25 million years? Want to know why, every time a chimpanzee ancestor is dug up in Africa it automatically becomes one of our ancestors.

I mean seriously, I could go on and on. The ERVs are supposed to be so close that it's a smoking gun but the largest and most abundant ERVs in the Chimpanzee genome are not present in the human genome. Chromosomal rearrangements would have had to happen on a massive scale leaving both genome riddled with genetic flip flops all over the place. The Taung fossil, thought for half a century to be a chimpanzee is now the Piltdown of our age. It's a chimpanzee size skull being passed off as one of our ancestors and the list goes on.

Christians who are getting taken in by this myth should be more discerning about what they mix with their Christian convictions. So what do you say we do the math, actually look at the evidence and consider who is telling the truth about human history.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 

Greg1234

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Christians who are getting taken in by this myth should be more discerning about what they mix with their Christian convictions. So what do you say we do the math, actually look at the evidence and consider who is telling the truth about human history.

They're hardly concerned about what the data says right now. It's become a matter of not being a creationist at any cost. If you do manage to get one in a debate based on evidence, take pity. I don't think that they realize what they are doing or what they've done.
 
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mark kennedy

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They're hardly concerned about what the data says right now. It's become a matter of not being a creationist at any cost. If you do manage to get one in a debate based on evidence, take pity. I don't think that they realize what they are doing or what they've done.

Well the thing is I have debated them a lot, the fact is that most of them can't keep their facts straight. For some reason they think they are smarter and better informed then creationists, even when they are not.

Anyway, your right, I don't think they know what they are trampling under their feet.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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mark kennedy

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Rom 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

I'm still curious, does it bother you that the RCC and Papias believe that you are anathema?

Have a nice day :wave:
Mark
 
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Assyrian

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I'm still curious, does it bother you that the RCC and Papias believe that you are anathema?

Have a nice day :wave:
Mark
I addressed that over in the Peanut Gallery.

I did a quick google for: catholic church list of anathemas
The first hit gives a handy list you might want to look over, the site itself looks pretty rabid, but the quotes look genuine. You might want to have a look over them and see which one apply to you the next time you want to anathematise people over evolution or Original Sin.
Do you believe that salvation is by grace through faith and not of works as stated in Ephesians 2:8-10? Then you are considered anathema!
COUNCIL OF TRENT: SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION CANON XXIV
If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

Do you believe that only those who believe should baptized as was done in Acts 2:41; 8:12; 10:47; 18:8 and therefore disagree with the Catholic Churches doctrine of infant baptism? Then you are considered anathema!
COUNCIL OF TRENT: SEVENTH SESSION, CANONS ON BAPTISM CANON III
If any one saith, that in the Roman church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism; let him be anathema.

Do you agree with Paul that baptism is not part of the gospel (1 Cor 1:17) and therefore not required for salvation? Then you are considered anathema!
COUNCIL OF TRENT: SEVENTH SESSION, CANONS ON BAPTISM CANON V
If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

Do you believe the Bible when it says that we must be able to believe and repent before we are baptized (Acts 2:38)? Then you are considered anathema!
COUNCIL OF TRENT: SEVENTH SESSION, CANONS ON BAPTISM CANON XIII
If any one saith, that little children, for that they have not actual faith, are not, after having received baptism, to be reckoned amongst the faithful; and that, for this cause, they are to be rebaptized when they have attained to years of discretion; or, that it is better that the baptism of such be omitted, than that, while not believing by their own act, they should be bapized in the faith alone of the Church; let him be anathema.

Do you believe that confirmation is not a proper sacrament since it is not taught in the Bible? Then you are considered anathema!
COUNCIL OF TRENT: SEVENTH SESSION, CANONS ON CONFIRMATON CANON I
If any one saith, that the confirmation of those who have been baptized is an idle ceremony, and not rather a true and proper sacrament; or that of old it was nothing more than a kind of catechism, whereby they who were near adolescence gave an account of their faith in the face of the Church; let him be anathema.

Do you deny that Christ complete in body, blood, soul and divinity are present in the Eucharist? Then you are considered anathema!
COUNCIL OF TRENT: THIRTEENTH SESSION, CANONS ON THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST CANON I
If any one denieth, that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as in a sign, or in figure, or virtue; let him be anathema.

Do you deny the doctrine of Transubstantiation since it is not taught in the scripture? Then you are considered anathema!
THIRTEENTH SESSION, CANONS ON THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST CANON lI:
If any one saith, that, in the sacred and holy sacrament of the Eucharist, the substance of the bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and denieth that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood-the species Only of the bread and wine remaining-which conversion indeed the Catholic Church most aptly calls Transubstantiation; let him be anathema.

Do you believe that Christ's sacrifice on the cross is the only sacrifice that will offer forgiveness of sins (Heb 10:12-14) and thefore deny that we receive forgiveness of sins by taking the Eucharist? Then you are considered anathema!
COUNCIL OF TRENT: THIRTEENTH SESSION, CANONS ON THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST CANON V
If any one saith, either that the principal fruit of the most holy Eucharist is the remission of sins, or, that other effects do not result therefrom; let him be anathema. let him be anathema.

Do you believe that we should not worship the bread of the Eucharist as if it were Christ complete? Then you are considered anathema!
COUNCIL OF TRENT: THIRTEENTH SESSION, CANONS ON THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST CANON VI
If any one saith, that, in the holy sacrament of the Eucharist, Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, is not to be adored with the worship, even external of latria; and is, consequently, neither to be venerated with a special festive solemnity, nor to be solemnly borne about in processions, according to the laudable and universal rite and custom of holy church; or, is not to be proposed publicly to the people to be adored, and that the adorers thereof are idolators; let him be anathema.

Do you believe that sacramental confession is not necessary to keep your salvation and that confessing secretly to priests is a doctrine made by man, not Christ? Then you are considered anathema!
COUNCIL OF TRENT: FOURTEENTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF PENANCE CANON VI
If any one denieth, either that sacramental confession was instituted, or is necessary to salvation, of divine right; or saith, that the manner of confessing secretly to a priest alone, which the Church hath ever observed from the beginning, and doth observe, is alien from the institution and command of Christ, and is a human invention; let him be anathema.

Do you believe that the Mass is NOT a real and true sacrifice offered to God because the Bible specifically says that there will be no more sacrifice for sins (Heb 10:18)? Then you are considered anathema!
COUNCIL OF TRENT: TWENTY-SECOND SESSION, CANONS ON THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS CANON I
If any one saith, that in the mass a true and proper sacriflce is not offered to God; or, that to be offered is nothing else but that Christ is given us to eat; let him be anathema.

Do you believe that the Mass is NOT a propitiatory sacrifice that should be offered for the sins of both the living and dead saints for forgiveness of sins, punishment, etc.? Then you are considered anathema!
COUNCIL OF TRENT: TWENTY-SECOND SESSION, CANONS ON THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS CANON III
If any one saith, that the sacrifice of the mass is only a sacrifice of praise and of thanksgiving; or, that it is a bare commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross, but not a propitiatory sacrifice; or, that it profits him only who receives; and that it ought not to be offered for the living and the dead for sins, pains, satisfactions, and other necessities; let him be anathema.

Do you believe in the priesthood of the believers as stated in 1 Peter 2:9 and therefore do not believe that Catholic priests have the power to retain and forgive sins? Then you are considered anathema!
TWENTY-THIRD SESSION, CANONS ON THE SACRAMENT OF ORDER CANON I
If any one saith, that there is not in the New Testament a visible and external priesthood; or that there is not any power of consecrating and offering the true body and blood of the Lord, and of forgiving and retaining sins; but only an office and bare ministry of preaching the Gospel, or, that those who do not preach are not priests at all; let him be anathema.

Do you deny the legitimacy of the bishops appointed by Rome? Then you are considered anathema!
COUNCIL OF TRENT: TWENTY-THIRD SESSION, CANONS ON THE SACRAMENT OF ORDER CANON VIII
If any one saith, that the bishops, who are assumed by authority of the Roman Pontiff, are not legitimate and true bishops, but are a human figment; let him be anathema.
There are 14 anathemas there Mark, how did you score?
 
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The4thrider

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TL;DR edit it down before you post.


You can't have it both ways and there are ample reason why:
‘Darwinism destroyed the dogma of the Fall upon which the whole intellectual fabric of Christianity rests. For without a Fall there is no redemption, and the whole theory and meaning of the Pauline system is vain.’ (Wells, H.G., Anticipations of the Reactions of Mechanical and Scientific Progress Upon Human Life and Thought)​
The Bible is a book of history and our true lineage is found there, not in the modern mythology of Darwinian evolution. Essential doctrine is at stake and while you can accept evolution as natural history in part rejecting the creation of Adam and original sin runs contrary to Christian Orthodoxy. Accepting human evolution is not a rejection of orthodoxy but the rejection of the special creation of Adam and original sin definitely is. Believing that land dwelling creatures became amphibians, transposed into whale and dolphins are certainly interesting ideas but would have no bearing on doctrinal issues. The doctrine of justification by faith has a central focus, the sin of Adam and it's inextricably linked to special creation. Darwinism knows no bounds, it is actively seeking inroads to Christian conviction.

The New Testament traces back to Adam and no further. Examples of how original sin is tied to justification are numerous, this is just one of many:
Justification by the righteousness and obedience of Christ, is a doctrine that the Scripture teaches in very full terms, Rom. 5:18, 19, “By the righteousness of one, the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so, by the obedience of one, shall all be made righteous.” Here in one verse we are told that we have justification by Christ’s righteousness, and that there might be no room to understand the righteousness spoken of, merely of Christ’s atonement by his suffering the penalty. In the next verse it is put in other terms, and asserted that it is by Christ’s obedience we are made righteous. (Justification by Faith Alone by Jonathan Edwards. 1703-1758)​
Accepting human evolution from that of apes is not only a rejection of the Pauline doctrine of original sin, it's a myth of human ancestry. When the New Testament writers mention Adam they speak of him as the first man and the reason why all of us are under the curse of sin and death. Paul tells us that
'by one man sin entered the world' and 'by one man's offense death reigned'. (Rom 5:12-19).​
Paul ties Adam directly to the need for justification and grace in his exposition of the Gospel in his letter to the Romans. Luke lists Adam in his genealogy calling him 'son of God' indicating he had no human parents but rather was created (Luke 3:23-28). The Apostle Peter writing on the subject of false teachers mentions Paul:
Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:15-16)​
A Brief History of a Fraud:

My concern is simply this, the myth of human lineage linked to ape ancestry contradicts the clear testimony of Scripture and essential doctrine, specifically justification by faith. Paul is clear that all have sinned in Adam and that is the reason that we cannot keep the Mosaic law. Charles Darwin in the preface to ‘On the Origin of Species’ credits Jean-Baptiste Lamarck with being the first man to propose that ‘the doctrine that species, including man, are descended from other species.’ This, Darwin argues, ‘being the result of law, and not of miraculous interposition.’ This is what I have come to recognize as an a priori assumption of exclusively naturalistic explanations for the lineage of all living things. For years I focused exclusively on the Scientific literature regarding Chimpanzee and Human common ancestry and found that the human brain had neither the time nor the means to have evolved from that of apes
Piltdown England was the site of a mass grave during the during the great plague of AD 1348-49. Among the finds at the site were fossil bones of elephant, mastodon, rhinoceros, hippopotamus, beaver, and deer. Piltdown is 20 miles west of Hastings in a tiny hamlet in east Sussex. In a gravel pit used for the repair of roads, Charles Dawson 'discovered' Piltdown Man. It was a fully human cranium with the jaw of an orangutan that convinced mainstream science that Piltdown was a transitional from ape to man. The fossils were discovered between 1908 and 1915 and it was not until 1953, 38-45 years later that Piltdown Man was discovered to be a fraud. (paraphrased from, Bones of Contention, Lebenow, 2004).​
The painstaking process of critical peer review and the demand for direct observation and demonstrative proof are supposed to avoid discrepancies in scientific reporting. In the case of Piltdown Man we are looking at a fraud that perpetuated itself in the corridors of academia for nearly half a century. Neither our political systems, sacred theologies, meticulous histories or critical inquires into natural history are immune to our own willful self deception. The Piltdown scandal is a warning to all who would know our history, you are more easily mislead then you would like to believe.

With that in mind lets explore some of the many offerings laid on the altar of natural history today. Evolution as it applies to natural history is a twisting turning road that is not easily navigated. The discerning traveler will have to keep both an open mind and critically examine the evidence modern science has put before us. The first order of business is to see how this fraudulent fossil evidence was received at the Smithsonian Institute.
"The evidence was there the entire time. Any researcher could have looked at the teeth with a microscope and noticed an artificial wear pattern, or the fact that one tooth had a coat of paint on it. But why didn't anyone recognize this forgery? One reason is that because Piltdown affirmed many scientists' hypotheses, they were reluctant to put it under scientific scrutiny that might have proved it wrong. Museums prominently displayed casts of Piltdown as scientific fact. Ales Hrdlicka, a leading anthropologist here at the Smithsonian, was one of the few scientists to question whether the jaw and cranium went together. But even here in our museum there was an exhibit on display: "Evolution of the Bony Chin" -- from chimpanzee through Piltdown Man to modern humans! "​
It fit the hypothesis of many scientists so no one really looked that critically at it, with an occasional exception. The attitude of many evolutionists I encounter is that all of the evidence is pointing toward common ancestry of man and chimpanzee. As an amateur science buff (some would say rank amateur) I am curious how the evidence is put together to confirm or falsify the various aspects of evolutionary theory. On the other hand as a Creationist the Scriptures are sacred history so I ask you to take a little journey with me. Human evolution as it relates to the transition from apes to human beings cover some 5 to 7 million years.

Sin and death had it's origin (genesis) in Adam, that is how and why 'all' have sinned. Don't get this twisted, Paul is clear that when Adam sinned we did not fast. What my ambiguous opponent is trying to do is to is to distract you from the clear meaning of the text. The Protestant understanding of the text is that we both sinned in Adam and continue to in ourselves because of our fallen nature. The fall itself is an historical account and the conflict between evolution and creation are not about natural science, it's about natural history. What they have done with Darwinism is rewrite human history:
For all have sinned - In Adam, and in their own persons; by a sinful nature, sinful tempers, and sinful actions. And are fallen short of the glory of God - The supreme end of man; short of his image on earth, and the enjoyment of him in heaven. (John Wesley's Notes)

Sin originated with Satan Isaiah 14:12-14, entered the world through Adam Romans 5:12, was, and is, universal, Christ alone excepted ; Romans 3:23; 1 Peter 2:22, incurs the penalties of spiritual and physical death ; Genesis 2:17; 3:19; Ezekiel 18:4,20; Romans 6:23 and has no remedy but in the sacrificial death of Christ ; Hebrews 9:26; Acts 4:12 availed of by faith Acts 13:38,39. Sin may be summarized as threefold: An act, the violation of, or want of obedience to the revealed will of God; a state, absence of righteousness; a nature, enmity toward God. (Scofield Commentary)​
Am I to conclude that Scofield, Wesley and Paul are all mistaken that sin and death entered through Adam. Is there some reason I could logically conclude that the meaning is not both literal and explicit with regards to the sin of Adam?

The modern mystics who imagine life emerging from the Darwinian warm little pond are nothing new under the sun. Mythographers have been attributing to primordial elementals what is rightfully attributed to God since the dawn of time:

The Mesopotamian mythographers took their inspiration from thier own country...When nothing yet had a name, that is to say when nothing had yet been created, they wrote, Apsu (the fresh waters) Tiamat (the salt waters) and Mummu (the clouds) formed together one single confused body:
"When on high the heaven had not been named, Firm ground below had not been called by name, Naught but primordial Apsu, their begetter, and Mummu and Tiamat she who born them all. No reed hut had been matted, no marsh land had appeared, when no gods whatever had been brought into being. Uncalled by name their destinies undetermined. Then it was that the gods were formed withing them." (Ancient Iraq, Georges Roux)
The elemental muse was greater in pagan myths then the gods, they in fact gave rise to them. These naturalistic mechanisms are the creator in the mind of the mythographers of ancient and modern times.

Ok, maybe you are thinking that even though Piltdown was a monumental fraud it can't happen now. You would be wrong, they are fraudulently misrepresenting the genetic evidence on an epic scale.

If we are looking at a gene that is identical in two species both closely and distantly related to other species with the exact same gene with the exact same mutation in the exact same place. That is a pretty compelling argument for common ancestry. In this case I don't think you have anything like that since it works in most mammals and probably is either function on some human populations or repairable in some way. The human being is unique among living systems and diverges from the chimpanzee right down to the sequences of the DNA. For years geneticists have been claiming that we are 99% identical to apes in our DNA.

Time Cover Story: What Makes us Different? Not very much, when you look at our DNA. But those few tiny changes made all the difference in the world

They claim we are 98% the same as chimpanzees in our DNA and they know that this is not true. Why would they lie? Because the mutation rate for hominids does not account for the divergence between chimpanzees and humans. Nature did the exact same thing when announcing the Chimpanzee Genome. They claimed that in our DNA we are 98% the same as chimpanzees and they know this is not true. Type 'chimpanzee genome' into you google search engine and you will find this at the top:

What makes us human? We share more than 98% of our DNA and almost all of our genes with our closest living relative, the chimpanzee. .
Nature Web Focus: The chimpanzee genome

The study they are announcing clearly indicates that the two geneome diverge by at least 100,000,000 more base pairs then Time or Nature are telling you.

Don't believe me? Do the math:
Single-nucleotide substitutions occur at a mean rate of 1.23% between copies of the human and chimpanzee genome, with 1.06% or less corresponding to fixed divergence between the species...On the basis of this analysis, we estimate that the human and chimpanzee genomes each contain 40–45 Mb of species-specific euchromatic sequence, and the indel differences between the genomes thus total 90 Mb. This difference corresponds to 3% of both genomes and dwarfs the 1.23% difference resulting from nucleotide substitutions; this confirms and extends several recent studies 63, 64, 65, 66, 67. (Initial sequence of the chimpanzee genome and comparison with the human genome, Nature Sept 2005)​
That includes 5 previous studies that puts divergence at close to 5% but they still say it's 98% and no one calls them on it. Did you ever notice that there are no chimpanzee ancestors represented in the fossil record going back at least 25 million years? Want to know why, every time a chimpanzee ancestor is dug up in Africa it automatically becomes one of our ancestors.

I mean seriously, I could go on and on. The ERVs are supposed to be so close that it's a smoking gun but the largest and most abundant ERVs in the Chimpanzee genome are not present in the human genome. Chromosomal rearrangements would have had to happen on a massive scale leaving both genome riddled with genetic flip flops all over the place. The Taung fossil, thought for half a century to be a chimpanzee is now the Piltdown of our age. It's a chimpanzee size skull being passed off as one of our ancestors and the list goes on.

Christians who are getting taken in by this myth should be more discerning about what they mix with their Christian convictions. So what do you say we do the math, actually look at the evidence and consider who is telling the truth about human history.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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philadiddle

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Mark,

I'm curious as to why you recycle old material so much? Parts of this post were mentioned in other posts (link, link) and you even posted this back in 2010 in another forum (link) and at the same time you made this thread you threw it up in another forum (link). And there are still parts of it scattered across the internet on various blogs and other posts (link link link).

I post these links for two reasons. One, others can read reactions to this on the other sites and get more information. Two, I have to wonder why it hasn't seemed to change much. Even posts that I made a month or two ago I would word differently now if I were to repost them because discussion will change how I approach some of the points. Mark, do you find that you learn from those who disagree with you and you adjust your arguments accordingly or do you just stick to the original argument no matter what?

And also, can you please post manageable sized topics? I'd love to respond to some of this but I can't sift through all of it at once, or even in a week probably lol. Trim it down and make a single point in a post and it will lead to more fruitful discussion.
 
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mark kennedy

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Mark,

I'm curious as to why you recycle old material so much? Parts of this post were mentioned in other posts

That's easy enough to answer, the same facts and issues still interest me. What I have noticed is that when certain issues are raised new lines of discussion emerge and repeating the same arguments are a way of avoiding the same arguments previously dealt with.

I post these links for two reasons. One, others can read reactions to this on the other sites and get more information. Two, I have to wonder why it hasn't seemed to change much. Even posts that I made a month or two ago I would word differently now if I were to repost them because discussion will change how I approach some of the points. Mark, do you find that you learn from those who disagree with you and you adjust your arguments accordingly or do you just stick to the original argument no matter what?

Once I see that facts are established in a discussion or debate it gets added to the primary arguments. To be honest I have not been impressed with the arguments I have encountered for quite some time. If it seems like I'm simply rehashing the same old arguments its because I am since no new counter arguments have emerged.

Still I get curious where the subject material might take us so I simply reintroduce the subject material again in hopes of finding new ways of looking at it. I'm also mindful of those who happen into these discussions and really don't know what the issues are.

And also, can you please post manageable sized topics? I'd love to respond to some of this but I can't sift through all of it at once, or even in a week probably lol. Trim it down and make a single point in a post and it will lead to more fruitful discussion.

No one ever said you have to sift through this in it's entirety. What I expect should happen is you to browse the post and find something of interest. I'm something of a collector, I am especially fond of the philosophical issues, especially those raised by genetics research. I would be shocked for someone to actually respond to every post and it comes as no surprise for someone to respond to an OP on here without even reading it.

Just think of it as a smorgasbord, find something you like and make a meal of it. I have posted dozens of discussions of the Chimpanzee Genome paper only to find that evolutionists still aren't clear on what the level of divergence is when reduced to a ratio. So I keep covering the things I'm sure are already established waiting for someone to actually introduce a new argument.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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mark kennedy

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TL;DR edit it down before you post.

What would have possessed you to quote the entire OP and to respond to none of it? What is more you don't get to decide what I post, if I like long essays in the OP isn't that my choice? What is more I think this kind of a pedantic one liner wastes space and ruins threads. Maybe you should consider putting a little more thought into what you are contributing to these boards.

Have a nice day :wave:
Mark
 
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Greg1234

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Well the thing is I have debated them a lot, the fact is that most of them can't keep their facts straight. For some reason they think they are smarter and better informed then creationists, even when they are not.
It's a stereotype to my understanding. The same thing happens with materialists.
 
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mark kennedy

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It's a stereotype to my understanding. The same thing happens with materialists.

Your actually dealing with two assumptions, the first is naturalistic causes. The second assumption is that if you don't make the first one you are ignorant. It's as simple as that.
 
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Greg1234

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Your actually dealing with two assumptions, the first is naturalistic causes. The second assumption is that if you don't make the first one you are ignorant. It's as simple as that.

They assume the evidence, then attempt to attack not realizing that if the evidence for Darwinism is not in their favor, they are the representatives of the flat earth and geocentric crowd. Thats why it's pretty much useless to get into a debate about that. When the Darwinism phenomenon is over, it will be creationists who will have to repair the image of the bible while all blame for Darwinism will be cast on the church through TE. When the next assertion comes around, the process repeats itself, and creationists are the just like the people who tried to imbue flat earth, geocentricism and Darwinism.
 
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mark kennedy

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They assume the evidence, then attempt to attack not realizing that if the evidence for Darwinism is not in their favor, they are the representatives of the flat earth and geocentric crowd. Thats why it's pretty much useless to get into a debate about that. When the Darwinism phenomenon is over, it will be creationists who will have to repair the image of the bible while all blame for Darwinism will be cast on the church through TE. When the next assertion comes around, the process repeats itself, and creationists are the just like the people who tried to imbue flat earth, geocentricism and Darwinism.

The philosophy is simple enough, if it's different differ to natural selection and if it's the same it's an homology argument. Whatever the evidence is, it gets organized around the naturalistic assumptions that come before the evidence. Darwinism is actually a belief that natural law provides a better explanation then God acting in time and space, that's really all it amounts to.

Geocentrism and a flat earth are not issues, never were. When Galileo was in Piza questioning Aristotelian mechanics the professors lost those arguments and went for the cheap shot, they attacked his theology:

High church officials did not initially oppose Galileo's science. Indeed, one cardinal remarked that the Bible tells us how to go to Heaven, not how the heavens go.

Galileo wrote that his science was "in contradiction to the physical notions commonly held among academic philosophers" and "stirred up against me no small number of professors." They "hurled various charges and published numerous writings filled with vain arguments, and they made the grave mistake of sprinkling these with passages taken from places in the Bible which they had failed to understand properly." They had "resolved to fabricate a shield for their fallacies out of the mantle of pretended religion and the authority of the Bible." (Galileo and Theology)​

What was going on was Galileo was convinced that the principles of motion were only dimly understood and he proposed a new understanding. The status quo opposed him and when they couldn't prove their points the simply accused him of heresy. The primary issue was who gets to interpret Scripture, not whether or not the earth revolved around the sun.

The Scriptures have never spoken to cosmology and no essential doctrine is involved. When it comes to Adam and Eve and the creation of the heavens and the earth that is simply not the case. To make them the same is fallacious and the fallacy is called equivocation.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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