The Mystery of Cain.

[Shadowprophet]

As time passes, Some questions about the way we understand events begin to form.
I have full faith in the Bible And it's Word, And I love God. Truthfully. I ask these questions with my own opinions, already formed, But the whole subject is perplexing.In the Bible In the book of Moses I believe, Cain is cursed for killing his brother able. Cain is cursed with a mark. That should be killed in his exile, that person would suffer seven fold. This question arises, Who exactly was it that would have killed Cain? There was Adam and Eve and Cain, And possibly some of Cains sisters. But Cain was exiled, and in his excommunication, He found a wife. Who was this wife? how did she exist? Did God Just create him a woman? Who are these individuals, these people that the excommunicated Cain is interacting with and even marrying? If you read the Bible, Cain was cursed to be rejected from the earth.. Moses 5:36 And now thou shalt be cursed from the earth which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand.

Okay, So the earth, Which Accepted Able, and his death, The earth, The thing we will all return to.., Cain is cursed to be denied from it? I take this as Cain can not die, and possibly did never die. In fact, Cains death is not mentioned in the bible.

Any Thoughts on this would be appreciated on this issue.

 

[dysert]

I don't know anything about the book of Moses, since it isn't in the Bible. But as far as Cain is concerned, remember that we're talking about several hundred years. Lots of children are born to Adam & Eve, and lots of children are born to those children, etc. Cain undoubtedly bore lots of children and they had children as well. After hundreds of years, it's quite possible that any blood relationship between Cain and most other people on the earth is very weak. So one of his very distant relatives could have killed Cain.

The Bible doesn't talk about Cain's death, but that doesn't mean he didn't die. Most of the people in the Bible died without comment.

 

[Shadowprophet]

I don't know anything about the book of Moses, since it isn't in the Bible. But as far as Cain is concerned, remember that we're talking about several hundred years. Lots of children are born to Adam & Eve, and lots of children are born to those children, etc. Cain undoubtedly bore lots of children and they had children as well. After hundreds of years, it's quite possible that any blood relationship between Cain and most other people on the earth is very weak. So one of his very distant relatives could have killed Cain.

The Bible doesn't talk about Cain's death, but that doesn't mean he didn't die. Most of the people in the Bible died without comment.

Oh my goodness, It seems I've misspoken concerning doctrine, The book of Moses is a Mormon book, It wouldn't be present in this form in the standard versions of the Christian Bible. However, Regardless of it all the book of Moses exists, I've been studying it. for the similar verses to Cains curse, You will want Genesis 4:10-12.
It's the same story. just a different perspective, The Mormon record of events.

I study, A lot, I even study various faiths.

 

[Shadowprophet]

In the bible, We are told to know our enemy. Ephesians 6:10-12 we are taught to know our enemy. God gives us certain free will and room to grow. I choose to know everything I can. I study a lot, There are a lot of interesting mysteries to consider.

 

[SkyWriting]

In the bible, We are told to know our enemy. Ephesians 6:10-12 we are taught to know our enemy. God gives us certain free will and room to grow. I choose to know everything I can. I study a lot, There are a lot of interesting mysteries to consider.

The answer is the same. Many of the "first generations" of children are not
documented in scripture and thousands of children after that as well.

 

[Lazarus Short]

The Book of Jasher relates the death of Cain by a fellow who mistook him for an animal, and IIRC, put an arrow in him.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Both the Book of Moses and the Book of Jasher mentioned in this thread are new. That is, both were written within the modern period. I don't know which "Book of Jasher" the above poster has in mind; of the ones I am familiar with one is a medieval Jewish midrash, and the other an 18th century forgery.

Now if someone wanted some extra-biblical, second temple period literature, the Book of Jubilees, written probably between 160 and 150 BC, which says Cain was killed when his house collapsed and the stones it was made of crushed him to death (Jubilees 4:31), the irony being that Cain had slewn Abel with a stone,

"At the close of this jubilee Cain was killed after him in the same year; for his house fell upon him and he died in the midst of his house, and he was killed by its stones; for with a stone he had killed Abel, and by a stone was he killed in righteous judgment."

It's important to remember, however, that Jubilees, though definitely older than the aforementioned books of Moses and Jasher is still basically little more than Jewish folklore--collections of stories and legends which expand upon the stories of Genesis.

Assuming an historical Cain at all, how he died is likely unknown; but there's no reason to think that he didn't. Though I am of the position that the early chapters of Genesis are not intended to be read as literal history, but as divinely inspired mythology. Genesis doesn't become an historical (by more modern definitions of history) account until, basically, Abraham. Ancient writers frequently blended mythological and historical in their accounts, it was pretty normal to write things that way, strict history as we moderns understand wasn't really done in the ancient world.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Lazarus Short]

Many years ago, when I first began to read the Bible seriously, I came upon mention of the Book of Jasher, something like, "Is it not written in the Book of Jasher?" and "Behold, it is written in the Book of Jasher." I assumed the book was lost centuries ago, but found that it still exists. I got a copy, read it, and mentioned it to my father, who was not impressed. When he read the same mentions of it in his Bible, he became a fan, even after I began to suspect that it was mere midrash. I note that God is very much in the background of the book.

 

[ewq1938]

As time passes, Some questions about the way we understand events begin to form.
I have full faith in the Bible And it's Word, And I love God. Truthfully. I ask these questions with my own opinions, already formed, But the whole subject is perplexing.In the Bible In the book of Moses I believe, Cain is cursed for killing his brother able. Cain is cursed with a mark. That should be killed in his exile, that person would suffer seven fold.

That's not a curse against Cain.

This question arises, Who exactly was it that would have killed Cain?

Despite popular belief, Adam and Eve were not the first two humans.

Any Thoughts on this would be appreciated on this issue.

There is no reason to think Cain didn't die. We just don't know when or how it happened.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Despite popular belief, Adam and Eve were not the first two humans.

Preadamites? I'm dubious, but open to an explanation.

 

[ewq1938]

Preadamites? I'm dubious, but open to an explanation.

Ok well Adam was created after the 7th day of creation. I know ppl claim it's just Gen 1 retold but if so God made some mistakes like whether man was created before animals or animals created before man.

 

[SkyWriting]

Both the Book of Moses and the Book of Jasher mentioned in this thread are new. That is, both were written within the modern period. I don't know which "Book of Jasher" the above poster has in mind; of the ones I am familiar with one is a medieval Jewish midrash, and the other an 18th century forgery.

Now if someone wanted some extra-biblical, second temple period literature, the Book of Jubilees, written probably between 160 and 150 BC, which says Cain was killed when his house collapsed and the stones it was made of crushed him to death (Jubilees 4:31), the irony being that Cain had slewn Abel with a stone,

"At the close of this jubilee Cain was killed after him in the same year; for his house fell upon him and he died in the midst of his house, and he was killed by its stones; for with a stone he had killed Abel, and by a stone was he killed in righteous judgment."

It's important to remember, however, that Jubilees, though definitely older than the aforementioned books of Moses and Jasher is still basically little more than Jewish folklore--collections of stories and legends which expand upon the stories of Genesis.

Assuming an historical Cain at all, how he died is likely unknown; but there's no reason to think that he didn't. Though I am of the position that the early chapters of Genesis are not intended to be read as literal history, but as divinely inspired mythology. Genesis doesn't become an historical (by more modern definitions of history) account until, basically, Abraham. Ancient writers frequently blended mythological and historical in their accounts, it was pretty normal to write things that way, strict history as we moderns understand wasn't really done in the ancient world.

-CryptoLutheran

We understand today that 4 witnesses all give different accounts minutes after the event
so I'm not sure what "modern" definition of history you're using.

 

[ViaCrucis]

We understand today that 4 witnesses all give different accounts minutes after the event
so I'm not sure what "modern" definition of history you're using.

A modern historian is chiefly interested in presenting a straightforward accounting of historical events, and usually in chronological order; ancient histories were often a blend of myth, legend, and history and the intent was less about "just the facts" but rather providing a cohesive and thematic narrative. So, for example Homer and Hesiod aren't quite interested in a critical analysis of history as such, whereas Herodotus becomes one of the earliest to treat history as a systematic treatment and analysis of historical events. Genealogical works from the bronze age Middle East frequently blend mythological/legendary material into their histories, where frequently the founders of a people are treated as gods, demigods, or otherwise heroes of a super-human stature. In Chinese legend the era of the Three Sovereigns, mythological god-kings of prehistoric China, gave way to the first Chinese dynasty, the Xia. The Japanese emperors, for hundreds of years, was said to be the descendant of Jimmu, the great-grandson of Amaterasu, the sun goddess--that claim was only rejected after WW2 with Allies forcing the emperor to denounce divine descent. Rome was said to be founded by the twins Romulus and Remus. Etc.

The line between mythology and history is, at best, fuzzy in many of the oldest writings throughout human civilization--it was simply the way ancient peoples tended to think and speak. The intent wasn't to give systematic treatments of history, but to provide a national narrative that gave a cohesive identity to the people for whom it was written. The ancient Hebrews were not different in this respect, the stories in Genesis serve this same purpose--to provide a cohesive narrative that gave them identity by going from the creation of the world all the way to Moses and the Exodus.

So that, truthfully, there probably was no historic Cain, or Noah, or Enoch, etc. Ancient men of grandiose age (living hundreds of years) being part of a trope when talking about the most ancient past--not a literal past, but a mythological, legendary past. The intent of the stories here isn't to be like our modern histories, not even like histories from the classical period (which could include, for example, Luke-Acts); and so insisting on reading them that way is to read them wrongly and to impose ourselves on the text instead of letting the text be the text.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Many years ago, when I first began to read the Bible seriously, I came upon mention of the Book of Jasher, something like, "Is it not written in the Book of Jasher?" and "Behold, it is written in the Book of Jasher." I assumed the book was lost centuries ago, but found that it still exists. I got a copy, read it, and mentioned it to my father, who was not impressed. When he read the same mentions of it in his Bible, he became a fan, even after I began to suspect that it was mere midrash. I note that God is very much in the background of the book.

The book of Jasher mentioned in the Bible is lost, we don't have it. There is a text known as Sefer haYashar (the book of Jasher) first published in the 1600s, with claims of earlier publications from the mid 1500's; but there exists no evidence that it existed prior to the 16th or 17th century and thus was most likely a product of the early modern period. It doesn't purport to be the lost book mentioned in the Bible.

Another so-called Book of Jasher is the known forgery from the 18th century, which does purport to be the long lost book of Jasher; but as mentioned it is a known forgery written by a man by the name of Jacob Ilive, he was actually imprisoned on charges of forgery so the fraudulent nature of the text has been known since the beginning..

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ewq1938]

So that, truthfully, there probably was no historic Cain, or Noah, or Enoch, etc.

Might as well add no historic Jacob, Moses, King David to the list for the same basic reasons.

 

[singpeace]

The answer is the same. Many of the "first generations" of children are not
documented in scripture and thousands of children after that as well.

That is what I believe also. Adam lived for many hundreds of years; I think close to 900? And the Scripture is not clear about when Cain nor when Able were born. There could have been generations of sisters and brothers, their children which would be nieces and nephews and so on. At the point when Cain found a wife, I personally believe that she was a descendant of Adam and Eve.