The mysteries of Homosexuality

[Rhododendron]

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[newbeliever02072005]

This thread is now re-opened.​

 

[Rhododendron]

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[Brieuse]

Hi, Homosexuality is not a sin.

Homosexual acts as a sin is being debated quite passionately here. I believe it is not as sin as long as it remain in a loving monogamous relationship. Just like heterosexual acts, lust, adultery , etc would be a sin.

There are several passages in the Bible that appear to compete with what I just said above. No doubt somebody will now post a couple of them in retaliation.

 

[Der Alte]

Hi, Homosexuality is not a sin.

Homosexual acts as a sin is being debated quite passionately here. I believe it is not as sin as long as it remain in a loving monogamous relationship. Just like heterosexual acts, lust, adultery , etc would be a sin.

There are several passages in the Bible that appear to compete with what I just said above. No doubt somebody will now post a couple of them in retaliation.

Bintheredunthatgotthetshirtdontfit. We can discuss all those verses until judgement day. But most folk here claiming they don't condemn homosexuality, per se, but only in a pagan worship setting, could not locate a Hebrew verb or parse a Greek verb if their life depended on it. And don't have a clue what I just said

OTOH I studied both Biblical languages, at the post grad. level, more than 2 decades ago. And I KNOW what the Hebrew and Greek "really" say.

At this link, how the chosen of God have interpreted those passages from the time of Moses, through the early church, to the present day.

Previous Post: Irrefutable evidence from the Talmud and early church condemning homosexuality!

 

[inyourarmsalways]

Bintheredunthatgotthetshirtdontfit. We can discuss all those verses until judgement day. But most folk here claiming they don't condemn homosexuality, per se, but only in a pagan worship setting, could not locate a Hebrew verb or parse a Greek verb if their life depended on it. And don't have a clue what I just said

OTOH I studied both Biblical languages, at the post grad. level, more than 2 decades ago. And I KNOW what the Hebrew and Greek "really" say.

At this link, how the chosen of God have interpreted those passages from the time of Moses, through the early church, to the present day.

Previous Post: Irrefutable evidence from the Talmud and early church condemning homosexuality!

The Talmud is not God!
More commentary/interpretations from bigots against my gender and slavery was allowed.
I would not want to see things through their eyes.

There isn't a word for "homosexuality" in the Hebrew or Greek, so there goes that point.
There isn't a word for "sodomy" in the Hebrew or Greek.
Sodomite as historical context was an inhabitor of Sodom. If you have historical proof of otherwise, you can surely post a link or some evidence!

If the evidence in the Talmud was truly "irrefutable", then there wouldn't be so many gay affirming churches all over the world!
Again, the Talmud and those who take from it, are again, using translations through biased eyes.

 

[*Starlight*]

Hi for me, it's quite simple... most people are heterosexual, but some are homosexual... and it's definitely not a choice, since I'm heterosexual and it would be impossible for me to just decide to change my sexual orientation as if I had some kind of switch in my brain for that. And I don't see homosexuality as something wrong... what really matters is the love between two partners, no matter if it's a homosexual or heterosexual relationship... after all, this world needs more love, not less.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Homosexuality is a sin and more than clear in the scripture. But to answer your fair and difficult questions I want you to logically deduct a conclusion.

1) Why is homosexuality is a sin? Because it's not how we were ment to be and how we were designed. The scripture has been widely understood in a universal sense about it's issue the only problem is with the raise of liberalism and tolerance has perverted the biblical view. The verses are clear...what better evidence do you need?

2) Feelings are not a reliable source of truth. Not only that but the bible itself DOESN'T tell us to relay on feelings but OBJECTIVE biblical truth. We have to remember that we will struggle with our sin whether it's addiction, anger or any sin.

3)People who aren't Christian ARE not going to understand Christian positions. Just tell them that we love homosexuals like anyone else.

4) I trust reliable sources of truth which are present in scripture, emperical evidence and logic. NONE of those point to homosexuality being a part of God's plan therefore I can deduct that it shouldn't be peformed no matter HOW I or THEY feel.

 

[inyourarmsalways]

Homosexuality is a sin and more than clear in the scripture. But to answer your fair and difficult questions I want you to logically deduct a conclusion.

1) Why is homosexuality is a sin? Because it's not how we were ment to be and how we were designed. The scripture has been widely understood in a universal sense about it's issue the only problem is with the raise of liberalism and tolerance has perverted the biblical view. The verses are clear...what better evidence do you need?

2) Feelings are not a reliable source of truth. Not only that but the bible itself DOESN'T tell us to relay on feelings but OBJECTIVE biblical truth. We have to remember that we will struggle with our sin whether it's addiction, anger or any sin.

3)People who aren't Christian ARE not going to understand Christian positions. Just tell them that we love homosexuals like anyone else.

4) I trust reliable sources of truth which are present in scripture, emperical evidence and logic. NONE of those point to homosexuality being a part of God's plan therefore I can deduct that it shouldn't be peformed no matter HOW I or THEY feel.

Homosexuality is not condemned in and of itself in Scriptures. It is hidden behind false translations of the Hebrew and Greek language. Bring some verses here for example before just arbitrarily saying something like that. If it was so clear there wouldn't be so many Gay affirming Protestant Churches!

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Hi, Homosexuality is not a sin.

Homosexual acts as a sin is being debated quite passionately here. I believe it is not as sin as long as it remain in a loving monogamous relationship. Just like heterosexual acts, lust, adultery , etc would be a sin.

There are several passages in the Bible that appear to compete with what I just said above. No doubt somebody will now post a couple of them in retaliation.

What you you said sounds disingenuous and parsing of words. Answer her question !

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Bintheredunthatgotthetshirtdontfit. We can discuss all those verses until judgement day. But most folk here claiming they don't condemn homosexuality, per se, but only in a pagan worship setting, could not locate a Hebrew verb or parse a Greek verb if their life depended on it. And don't have a clue what I just said

OTOH I studied both Biblical languages, at the post grad. level, more than 2 decades ago. And I KNOW what the Hebrew and Greek "really" say.

At this link, how the chosen of God have interpreted those passages from the time of Moses, through the early church, to the present day.

Y

Previous Post: Irrefutable evidence from the Talmud and early church condemning homosexuality!

ou keep reminding us of your supposed expertise in linguistics and of everyone else's inferior education experiences. Where did you learn your Hebrew and Greek? What University?

 

[inyourarmsalways]

ou keep reminding us of your supposed expertise in linguistics and of everyone else's inferior education experiences. Where did you learn your Hebrew and Greek? What University?

He doesn't know it, he keeps copy/pasting the same link over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over..... AGAIN

 

[imind]

I trust reliable sources of truth which are present in scripture, emperical evidence and logic. NONE of those point to homosexuality being a part of God's plan

it is one thing to suggest the evidence is definitive that homosexuality is not a choice, another to suggest its inconclusive, another to suggest it is a choice. you've chosen option three. tell us what empirical evidence you have that homosexuality is a choice.


while we cannot say definitively what causes homosexuality, the evidence is most certainly leaning towards a biological factor.

given the complexity of sexuality (homo and hetero), it may be some time before we know for certain the root cause, but others insistence that it cannot be biological because the bible says otherwise are treading in dangerous waters. the bible is not a science book, for one, and what were to happen to those when it is discovered to be biological? will the bible then be lying?

i hear from literalists all the time that they will trust the lords words before man's. this is a silly arguement, as one must depend on his understanding of the words, which is based on man's reasoning abilities - unless they claim divine understanding which is, too, absurd.

 

[Der Alte]

ou keep reminding us of your supposed expertise in linguistics and of everyone else's inferior education experiences. Where did you learn your Hebrew and Greek? What University?

My point was that many, most people who come here with their "What the Greek/Hebrew really means." arguments, don't have a clue what they are talking about because their "evidence" is copy/pasted from some GBLT-Я-us website. So unless one has some education and experience in Biblical languages don't try it with me, unlike most of the nay sayers here, I DO know what I am talking about.

Well east, why don't you go first with show and tell, but that info is around here somewhere.

 

[Der Alte]

He doesn't know it, he keeps copy/pasting the same link over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over..... AGAIN

What I posted was REAL, CREDIBLE, VERIFIABLE, IRREFUTABLE, HISTORICAL EVIDENCE and it has NEVER been addressed. All I ever see are the same ol', same ol', automaton like, put down dismissals.

Anonymous homosexual promoting websites are supposedly right but all the Jewish leaders, from the time of Moses and the entire early church are wrong.

 

[Der Alte]

Homosexuality is not condemned in and of itself in Scriptures. It is hidden behind false translations of the Hebrew and Greek language. Bring some verses here for example before just arbitrarily saying something like that. If it was so clear there wouldn't be so many Gay affirming Protestant Churches!

The early church interpreted [size=+1]αρσενοκοιτης[/size] as “ ”SODOMY,” “FILTH OF SODOMY,” lawless lust, “lust,” “impurity,” “works of the flesh,” “carnal,” “lawless intercourse,” “shameless,” “burning with insane love for boys,” “licentiousness,” “co-habitors with males,” “lusters after mankind”, etc. The above quoted from; Polycarp, 65 - 155 AD; Irenaeus, 120-202 AD; Theophilus, 115 - 181 AD; Clement of Alexandria, 153 - 217 AD; Tertullian, 145-220 AD; Cyprian, 200-258 AD; and Origen, 185-254 AD. Note the dates of these writings extend from ca. 85 AD through 258 AD.

Epistle of Polycarp [Disciple of John] to the Philippians Chapter V.-The Duties of Deacons, Youths, and Virgins. [65 - 155 AD]

Knowing, then, that "God is not mocked," we ought to walk worthy of His commandment and glory. In like manner should the deacons be blameless before the face of His righteousness, as being the servants of God and Christ, and not of men. They must not be slanderers, double-tongued, or lovers of money, but temperate in all things, compassionate, industrious, walking according to the truth of the Lord, who was the servant of all. If we please Him in this present world, we shall receive also the future world, according as He has promised to us that He will raise us again from the dead, and that if we live worthily of Him, "we shall also reign together with Him," provided only we believe. In like manner, let the young men also be blameless in all things, being especially careful to preserve purity, and keeping themselves in, as with a bridle, from every kind of evil. For it is well that they should be cut off from the lusts that are in the world, since "every lust warreth against the spirit; " and "neither fornicators, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, shall inherit the kingdom of God," nor those who do things inconsistent and unbecoming. Wherefore, it is needful to abstain from all these things, being subject to the presbyters and deacons, as unto God and Christ. The virgins also must walk in a blameless and pure conscience.

Irenaeus [Disciple of Polycarp]Against Heresies Book V [120-202 AD]

As, therefore, he who has gone forward to the better things, and has brought forth the fruit of the Spirit, is saved altogether because of the communion of the Spirit; so also he who has continued in the aforesaid works of the flesh, being truly reckoned as carnal, because he did not receive the Spirit of God, shall not have power to inherit the kingdom of heaven. As, again, the same apostle testifies, saying to the Corinthians, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not err," he says: "neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor revilers, nor rapacious persons, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And these ye indeed have been; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified, but ye have been justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God." He shows in the clearest manner through what things it is that man goes to destruction, if he has continued to live after the flesh; and then, on the other hand, [he points out] through what things he is saved. Now he says that the things which save are the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of our God.

Since, therefore, in that passage he recounts those works of the flesh which are without the Spirit, which bring death [upon their doers], he exclaimed at the end of his Epistle, in accordance with what he had already declared, "And as we have borne the image of him who is of the earth, we shall also bear the image of Him who is from heaven. For this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God."

Theophilus to Autolycus Book III [115 - 181 AD]
Chapter VI.-Other Opinions of the Philosophers.

And regarding lawless conduct, those who have blindly wandered into the choir of philosophy have, almost to a man, spoken with one voice. Certainly Plato, to mention him first who seems to have been the most respectable philosopher among them, expressly, as it were, legislates in his first book,5 entitled The Republic, that the wives of all be common, using the precedent of the son6 of Jupiter and the lawgiver of the Cretans, in order that under this pretext there might be an abundant offspring from the best persons, and that those who were worn with toil might be comforted by such intercourse.7 And Epicurus himself, too, as well as teaching atheism, teaches along with it incest with mothers and sisters, and this in transgression of the laws which forbid it; for Solon distinctly legislated regarding this, in order that from a married parent children might lawfully spring, that they might not be born of adultery, so that no one should honour as his father him who was not his father, or dishonour him who was really his father, through ignorance that he was so. And these things the other laws of the Romans and Greeks also prohibit. Why, then, do Epicurus and the Stoics teach incest and sodomy, with which doctrines they have filled libraries, so that from boyhood this lawless intercourse is learned? And why should I further spend time on them, since even of those they call gods they relate similar things?

Clement of Alexandria The Instructor. [Paedagogus.] Book III [153 - 217 AD]

Such images of divine wisdom are many; but I shall mention one instance, and expound it in a few words. The fate of the Sodomites was judgment to those who had done wrong, instruction to those who hear. The Sodomites having, through much luxury, fallen into uncleanness, practising adultery shamelessly, and burning with insane love for boys; the All-seeing Word, whose notice those who commit impieties cannot escape, cast His eye on them. Nor did the sleepless guard of humanity observe their licentiousness in silence; but dissuading us from the imitation of them, and training us up to His own temperance, and falling on some sinners, lest lust being unavenged, should break loose from all the restraints of fear, ordered Sodom to be burned, pouring forth a little of the sagacious fire on licentiousness; lest lust, through want of punishment, should throw wide the gates to those that were rushing into voluptuousness. Accordingly, the just punishment of the Sodomites became to men an image of the salvation which is well calculated for men. For those who have not committed like sins with those who are punished, will never receive a like punishment. By guarding against sinning, we guard against suffering.

Tertullian On Modesty [145-220 AD]
Chapter XVI.-General Consistency of the Apostle.

Come, now; who in the world has (ever) redintegrated one who has been "marred" by God (that is, delivered to Satan with a view to destruction of the flesh), after subjoining for that reason, "Let none seduce himself; " that is, let none presume that one "marred" by God can possibly be redintegrated anew? Just as, again, among all other crimes-nay, even before all others-when affirming that "adulterers, and fornicators, and effeminates, and co-habitors with males, will not attain the kingdom of God," he premised, "Do not err" -to wit, if you think they will attain it. But to them from whom "the kingdom" is taken away, of course the life which exists in the kingdom is not permitted either. Moreover, by superadding, "But such indeed ye have been; but ye have received ablution, but ye have been sanctified, in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God; " in as far as he puts on the paid side of the account such sins before baptism, in so far after baptism he determines them irremissible, if it is true, (as it is), that they are not allowed to "receive ablution" anew.

Cyprian Treatise XII Three Books of Testimonies Against the Jews [200-258 AD]

65. That all sins are put away in baptism.
In the first Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians: "Neither fornicators, nor those who serve idols, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor the lusters after mankind, nor thieves, nor cheaters, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers, shall obtain the kingdom of God. And these things indeed ye were: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."

Origen Against Celsus Book 8 [185-254 AD]

and that they often exhibit in their character a high degree of gravity, of purity, and integrity; while those who call themselves wise have despised these virtues, and have wallowed in the filth of sodomy, in lawless lust, “men with men working that which is unseemly.”​

"If it was so clear there wouldn't be so many Gay affirming Protestant Churches!" Logical fallacy, appeal to popularity. Jim Jones and David Koresh must have been right because they had so many followers.

 

[PinkTulip]

He doesn't know it, he keeps copy/pasting the same link over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over..... AGAIN

I will post this AGAIN! My husband studies ancient greek at University and his professor translated 1 Corth 6:9-10. She explained that the work malakoi (effeminate) refers to men who are feminine and dress in women's clothing. Arsenokoitai means men who lie with other men (sexual relations).And yes, he attends a secular University.

 

[Brieuse]

The early church interpreted [SIZE=+1]αρσενοκοιτης[/SIZE] as “ ”SODOMY,” “FILTH OF SODOMY,” lawless lust, “lust,” “impurity,” “works of the flesh,” “carnal,” “lawless intercourse,” “shameless,” “burning with insane love for boys,” “licentiousness,” “co-habitors with males,” “lusters after mankind”, etc.

so, which one is it? just proves my point on mistranslation.

 

[Der Alte]

so, which one is it? just proves my point on mistranslation.

You made no point on mistranslation. Kinda makes me think of a conversation between a few guys, one mentions, "his jalopy," another "his heap," another, "bucket of bolts," another, "his ride," another, "his wheels." and they are all talking about the same thing, a car or automobile.

All the interpretations posted mean the same thing and none refer to only associated with pagan rituals. If you really want to know what "arsenokoites" means when used by Paul, read this. Paul having been a rabbi, and a Pharisee knew the O.T.

Lev 20:13 [size=+1] תועבה עשׂו שׁניהם מות יומתו דמיהם בם׃[/size][size=+1]ואישׁ אשׁר ישׁכב את־זכר משׁכבי אשׁה[/size]

Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

LXX [ca. 250 BC] Lev 20:13 [size=+1]και ος αν κοιμηθη μετα αρσενος κοιτην γυναικος, βδελυγμα εποιησαν αμφοτεροι θανατουσθωσαν, ενοχοι εισιν.[/size]

1Co 6:9 [ca. 90 AD] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [[size=+1]αρσενοκοιτης[/size]]​

 

[cutie76]

This question has been on my mind for a while now.

Why exactly are people homosexual? We are told to believe that it is a sin. I lean towards this answer, yet I never have anything to back it up. I have been told that God creates us all perfectly. This is why we call homosexuality a "lifestyle". I want to believe what is the truth. But I am struggling.

I have been told by many homosexuals that it is not a lifestyle, that they had no choice. So are they all lying? Do they not know their own feelings? I am not backing up homosexuality. I want to know how to back up the word of God.

The other reason why I ask this is because ever time a non-Christian learns that I am a Christian, the next thing that comes out of their mouths is "so how do you feel about homosexuality?" I never know how to answer that question. It amazes me as well that it's what they all ask me.

Why is it that we see it as a choice, but they see it as it was chosen for them? They are the homosexual ones, so they'd know about that best... I know God knows about it better, but I mean here on Earth... what do you say??? How can you explain yourself as a Christian about something that doesn't even apply to you? If you are not gay, how will they understand you? Heck, as you can all see, I don't even understand me on this one!

What's the root of it all?

My take on the root and origin of why a person is homosexual lie in many factors.

I believe that there is a demon of sexual perversion and homosexuality is one of it's favorite prisons for humans - especially Christians.

Throughout a persons life, many factors (same-sex parent involvement, sexual abuse, peer pressure, word curses and more) contribute to opening the door for this demon to begin to tell a young person that he/she is gay.

Since our corrupt world has openly accepted the gay lifestyle it is more acceptable for that young person to think they are gay. They "feel" gay. Just think about those who are child predators, they "feel" an attraction to innocent children. So, are they born that way? Is that okay since they "feel" like it? We "feel" like many things, not all of which are godly, many in fact are not.

When a person speaks out with his mouth that he is gay, he has then come into agreement with Satan over the lie. There are many scriptures about the spoken word (God's and ours). The spoken word is POWERFUL!!A good book to refer to is Charles Capps' book on The Creative Force of the Tongue.

Once a person indulges in homosexual relations, I believe a stronghold is then formed.

With any demonic spirit that is oppressing Christians, it must be cast out and the strong hold be broken.

The devil is a liar, do not be deceived. He tells people that God doesn't really condemn homosexuality (just look at the Garden of Eden, he really pulled one over on Eve). He tells people that they are homosexual and some believe it, they come into agreement with it.

What amazes me is that of all of the Unlawful Sexual Relations in Leviticus 18-19, homosexuality is the ONE that is so fiercly debated. Not many will argue that having sex with your family (incest) and with animals is wrong, but that homosexual one seems to be a hard one for some to admit is wrong by God's standards.

Here is a good reference website: http://www.porn-free.org/homosexual_roots.htm

I know you will find the right answer, God will lead you to the Truth!!

God Bless!!