The Movie: You know which one.

[MariaRegina]

Quote: "You may not add to Chanter's reputation until you spread some more reputation around."

Me:

Dear Suzannah: I got the same response!

 

[prodromos]

Photini, I really dont understand your perspective at all.

I understand it perfectly and am in complete agreement with Photini. The Gospel accounts include everything that is necessary and have nothing that is unnecessary. If the blood and gore were necessary the evangelists would have gone into detail.

The simple fact is, Christ died because it was the only way to get into Hades. He died publically so that there could be no doubt as to the truth of His subsequent resurrection. Crucifixion fit the bill perfectly. Yes He suffered, but was it any greater than His deigning to put on human flesh in the first place?

John (who is not holding to his fast very well so far)

 

[prodromos]

Quote: "You may not add to Chanter's reputation until you spread some more reputation around."

Me:

Some people have obviously been abusing the system and bumping up each other's reputations, hence the restriction. Poor Erwin must throw his hands up in despair sometimes.

John.

 

[athbibleboy]

new member and a roughly three year Christian.

I was fortunate enough to see an advanced screening last night (tuesday) with my church group. in all actuality, the movie itself was what inspired me to join a Christian newsgroup.

I feel it necessary to warn people who are excited about seeing this movie, that it is not pure entertainment. it is ruthlessly violent so i would not take the children. however it is very accurate and moving overall. i don't want to spoil anyone from seeing the movie, by any means.

in fact i came away totally silent but with more resolve as a Christian.

we learn in sunday school about the crucifixion, but seeing it so graphically depicted was disturbing to say the least. to see this beautiful man. my savior. god made flesh. being tortured so graphically, and the things he went through made me weep. i cried through the last twenty minutes of the movie because i realized that it was I who did that to Him

the scourgings and the beatings and the torture were to pay for our sins. my sins. your sins. a man who had only ever done things to help people being treated so brutally moved me so much and He did it for me. for you. for all of us who are unworthy.

in essence i definitely recommend the movie to any Christian but non believers may not necessarily be inspired by it. they might just consider it brutally violent.

me personally i pray that this movie will inspire Christians to think on their lives. if Jesus was willing to do this for me, i should be willing to deny the tempatation of sin for Him.

thank you and may God bless all of you.

 

[JillLars]

If the blood and gore were necessary the evangelists would have gone into detail.

At the time the gospels were written, the immense suffering was implied because people knew about crucifixions and what they entailed, in today's society we wear crosses around our knecks with very little understanding of what they were actually used for. Now, if it were an electric chair, we'd have a better understanding, but because it happened 2,000 years ago, we are not able to fully grasp the sacrafice Christ made for us, he didn't just die of natural causes, he suffered and died, and we are not (nor do I believe we will ever be) able to fully understand the horror of the crucifixion.

 

[countrymousenc]

Surely the Church could have chosen to focus upon the bloody gore and horror of the Crucifixion, but guided by the Holy Spirit...it has not done this. I got this quote below from a link that is absolutely sickening. I wonder if seeing such things could eventually and maybe unconciously lead us to reject (especially new converts and potential converts) the Holy Icons of the Passion in this way...surely for some it may affect their sensitivity to them in some way. http://www.hollywoodjesus.com/passion.htm

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Photini, I see your point to a certain degree. I think the comments you quoted about the lack of passion in the icons - well, how does anyone not see the passion in them? Just pretty pictures? Someone's not connecting with those faces!

In fact, it isn't only the faces.

 

[Photini]

John and others,

I wonder if there has been or will eventually be any thought or article about this coming from the Holy Mountain. I have a strong tendancy to think that it will not receive raving support.

I hope i haven't come across as crazy here. But I have been trying to line up the thought of this movie and it's intentions (which are no doubt good intentions) with the thought and counsels of our Holy Fathers and Elders in Orthodoxy. The more I look into it, the more I see the two do not seem to line up at all, but are pretty contrary to each other.

 

[TWells]

Howdy John and Photini,

The Gospel accounts include everything that is necessary and have nothing that is unnecessary. If the blood and gore were necessary the evangelists would have gone into detail.

First, as someone pointed out earlier (and this is a gripe I have with a recent article that Frederica Green wrote for Beliefnet) the reason the Gospels simply state "...and they crucified him" is because the culture they were written in didnt need to have it described; it was a common reality for them.

I honestly believe that to cover up the crucifixion with pretty icons and paintings and to push it away because its "gory" or "violent" is partially what Paul's gripe with the Corthinians was about in 1 Cor. 1:23:

"but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles..."

Whether it appeals to our modern sensibilities or not, God chose the cross. He chose that particular way with all its bloody, gory detail to reconcile himself to us. If its wrong to portray the reality of it then it was wrong for God to do it in the first place.

Second, lets be honest. Its not like Christians (especially the Orthodox) are bombarded with bloody images of the Crucifixion. Of the more than 100 films that portray the Passion, this is the only one that depicts it realistically. Surely you can see some value in that?

The simple fact is, Christ died because it was the only way to get into Hades. He died publically so that there could be no doubt as to the truth of His subsequent resurrection.

The only purpose of the Cross wasnt just to get "into Hades". If God simply wanted a public execution he could have had Jesus been born a Roman citizen like Paul and we could all be wearing chopping blocks around our necks. I believe there was a much higher reason for God to choose one of the most horrifying, humiliating and painful forms of execution ever concieved of by man. Which is also the reason Passion is important and not that icky part Christians should hide in the closet. Because God at his most rejected, scorned, humiliated and bleeding to death naked is the moment in which God reveals more about himself and who He is than any scripture, liturgy or icon can ever reveal.

Yes He suffered, but was it any greater than His deigning to put on human flesh in the first place?

Of course it was John. The Incarnation wasnt simply what God had to do because we screwed up. The view of the Fathers was that the Incarnation would have been neccessary had the "fall" not even occured. Man would have always come to an impasse to where he could not progress in his deification until the union of the Logos with creation. What the 'fall' did do was add a "rescue operation" dimension to the Incarnation.

Photini:

I wonder if there has been or will eventually be any thought or article about this coming from the Holy Mountain. I have a strong tendancy to think that it will not receive raving support.

I have no doubt they will be critical of these "western" notions of the Passion.

I have been trying to line up the thought of this movie and it's intentions (which are no doubt good intentions) with the thought and counsels of our Holy Fathers and Elders in Orthodoxy. The more I look into it, the more I see the two do not seem to line up at all, but are pretty contrary to each other.

What writings of the Fathers would you be referring to? I dont remember reading anything by the Fathers stating that the crucifixion should only be depicted bloodlessly and with only an annoyed wimper on his face.

Athbibleboy:

in fact i came away totally silent but with more resolve as a Christian.

I'll pray for you and pray it will do the same for me.

In Christ,

Travis

 

[MariaRegina]

John and others,

I wonder if there has been or will eventually be any thought or article about this coming from the Holy Mountain. I have a strong tendancy to think that it will not receive raving support.

I hope i haven't come across as crazy here. But I have been trying to line up the thought of this movie and it's intentions (which are no doubt good intentions) with the thought and counsels of our Holy Fathers and Elders in Orthodoxy. The more I look into it, the more I see the two do not seem to line up at all, but are pretty contrary to each other.

Dear Photini,

Until a person has experienced the complete Holy Week in the Holy Orthodox Church as an Orthodox Christian, that person may not fully understand what you are trying to convey.

Starting with the Bridegroom services on Palm Sunday evening, Monday and Tuesday evenings, the Orthodox Christians worship the Suffering Bridegroom, our Lord Jesus Christ. This is a preparation for the rest of the week. In some churches, the Presanctified Liturgy is celebrated on Monday and Wednesday mornings. The Orthodox Christians experience the Seven Gospels on Wednesday evening, the Divine Liturgy on Holy Thursday morning, the Twelve Gospels of the Passion on Holy Thursday evening, the Good Friday morning, noon and mid-afternoon services and the Lamentations on Good Friday evening, followed by the quiet reading of the psalms at the Tomb of Christ in the all-night vigil on Good Friday until Holy Saturday morning. While the Catholics and Protestants have no services on Saturday morning, the Orthodox begin to celebrate the Holy Saturday Divine Liturgy with baptisms and the scattering of laurel leaves and rose petals with the proclamation: "Let God Arise and His enemies be scattered." Finally we come back to the Church for the celebration of the Holy Pascha.

Involvement in the full services of the Orthodox Holy Week is mentally, spiritually and physically exhausting. One is never the same. It is a life-changing experience.

There is a difference, throughout all these Lenten services, in the way the rest of Christendom looks at the events leading up to the death of our Savior. In Orthodoxy, there is expressed in song the joy of the Resurrection. We are never left without hope. It is a bright sadness. This cannot be conveyed on the big screen. Hence, the problem we Orthodox have with the blood and the gore of The Passion of the Christ. Sadly, this movie may further desensitize our teenagers who might look at it as another bloody movie to entertain them. Hopefully not, but there are too many movies that display violence and death.

Just something to think about....

Yours truly in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

 

[prodromos]

Dear Travis,

have you read On the Incarnation of the Word by Saint Athanasius?

I think you might find some of your opinions at odds with what he writes.

John.

 

[countrymousenc]

Travis,

just my 2 cents, for what it's worth. For a Jew (like Jesus) execution by hanging from a tree or wooden crossbeams put the one executed under the worst curse of the Law. Christ died to the Law so that believing Jews could do the same, in Him, and to erase the enmity between Jews and Gentiles that the Law created. We can't (thanks be to God eternally) ever truly look into that which was Jesus' greatest and truest suffering while He was tried, beaten, mocked and crucified. He has spared us.

 

[TWells]

Hey John, Chanter

have you read On the Incarnation of the Word by Saint Athanasius? I think you might find some of your opinions at odds with what he writes.

Yes, I have studied On the Incarnation quite a bit. Its what sparked my love for the Fathers. But im not exactly sure what part of my post you would be referring to.

Until a person has experienced the complete Holy Week in the Holy Orthodox Church as an Orthodox Christian, that person may not fully understand what you are trying to convey.

Chanter, I may only be a catechumen and havent experienced a complete Holy Week yet but I find it very silly to simply dismiss what I and others have said by claiming that we just "dont get it." Are you really willing to dismiss out of hand the spiritual signifigance of the Passion? Or the signifigance that the Western Church as ascribed to it? This really only furthers my belief that part of the reason many Orthodox dont like this movie is because its "western" or Catholic movie. If the West has over emphasized the Passion at the expense of the Ressurection, then the East could be equallly as guiltly of neglecting the Passion.

In Orthodoxy, there is expressed in song the joy of the Resurrection. We are never left without hope. It is a bright sadness. This cannot be conveyed on the big screen.

Once again I simply dont understand this. Dont you think you can get spiritual edification from meditating on both the Passion and the Ressuerection?? You seem to think one has to be seperated from the other. That leaves out the suffering aspect of our faith that finds its roots in the Passion of our Lord and is so central to it.

Sadly, this movie may further desensitize our teenagers who might look at it as another bloody movie to entertain them.

I know a few people that have seen this film and all walked away feeling they had a seen something religiously profound. Judging from the reaction generally that audiences are having toward it I see no basis for this at all. Teenagers become desencitized because of pointless violence that has no meaning and portrays the victims as nobodies. This film hardly does that.

In Christ,

Travis

 

[TWells]

Hey countrymousenc

just my 2 cents, for what it's worth. For a Jew (like Jesus) execution by hanging from a tree or wooden crossbeams put the one executed under the worst curse of the Law. Christ died to the Law so that believing Jews could do the same, in Him, and to erase the enmity between Jews and Gentiles that the Law created. We can't (thanks be to God eternally) ever truly look into that which was Jesus' greatest and truest suffering while He was tried, beaten, mocked and crucified. He has spared us.

I would agree totally. I dont think we will ever truly understand the proufound signifigance of the Passion and Ressuection of Christ.

Travis

 

[MariaRegina]

Hey John, Chanter

...

Chanter, I may only be a catechumen and havent experienced a complete Holy Week yet but I find it very silly to simply dismiss what I and others have said by claiming that we just "dont get it." Are you really willing to dismiss out of hand the spiritual signifigance of the Passion? Or the signifigance that the Western Church as ascribed to it? This really only furthers my belief that part of the reason many Orthodox dont like this movie is because its "western" or Catholic movie. If the West has over emphasized the Passion at the expense of the Ressurection, then the East could be equallly as guiltly of neglecting the Passion.

Once again I simply dont understand this. Dont you think you can get spiritual edification from meditating on both the Passion and the Ressuerection?? You seem to think one has to be seperated from the other. That leaves out the suffering aspect of our faith that finds its roots in the Passion of our Lord and is so central to it.

I know a few people that have seen this film and all walked away feeling they had a seen something religiously profound. Judging from the reaction generally that audiences are having toward it I see no basis for this at all. Teenagers become desencitized because of pointless violence that has no meaning and portrays the victims as nobodies. This film hardly does that.

In Christ,

Travis

Dear Travis:

I don't want you to think that I am debating with you. That is why I didn't mention your name before as I was responding to all the thoughts that are being expressed in this thread. What you are saying has validity, especially from a Western point of view.

Truly, I felt much the same way as you did when I was a catechumen. I really searched and studied East versus West before I was chrismated. It was difficult to understand the Eastern ethos. At times I honestly felt that I would never be chrismated because the differences seemed so large.

However, the experience of Holy Week in the Orthodox Church -- and over several years -- does have a profound effect.

Perhaps this might help:

Several priests told me that I could not acquire the "Orthodox mindset" until I had lived Orthodoxy -- until I had participated in the Holy Week services for several years. Orthodoxy is not acquired by watching a movie or reading a book. It is lived. It is attending weekly Divine Liturgies, praying and fasting, participating in parish activities, visiting the elderly, living in communion. Baptism and Chrismation are only the mysteries of initiation. Holy Communion leads us to theosis.

So Orthodoxy is more of a participation in the life of Christ -- not a passive reading or watching a movie.

And yes, I do believe the movie will have a profound effect. But I wonder, will the effect wear off because all these people (like in Christian Crusade) have no one to pastor them? Will this leave people feeling angry because they might feel that Christ died in vain -- because they do not see the Church as a reality, as a continuation of Christ's life here on earth. Christ came and established His Church, but His Holy Church is not really mentioned in the movie and I can understand why it wasn't.

The Church is the Bride of Christ, which was washed in His Blood. The Church leads us to Christ and nourishes us with His Body and Blood. I think Mel Gibson omitted the best part.

Forgive my rambling thoughts - I may be coming down with the flu.

Did this help?

Prayerfully yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

 

[Momzilla]

This is almost entirely OT, but Chanter, after reading your description of Holy Week, my only thought is that I can't wait to attend a Holy Week service this year at an orthodox church. Thank you for drawing me closer to orthodoxy! (and I hope you're not getting sick!)

 

[MariaRegina]

This is almost entirely OT, but Chanter, after reading your description of Holy Week, my only thought is that I can't wait to attend a Holy Week service this year at an orthodox church. Thank you for drawing me closer to orthodoxy! (and I hope you're not getting sick!)

Thanks Momzilla -- so many times I am just paraphrasing the Orthodox Priests who instructed me.

BTW: What does OT stand for? It couldn't be Old Testament in this application, could it?

A little confused here,

Elizabeth

 

[nicodemus]

I didn't read everybody's posts in the thread, but I thought you all might like to read what my priest said about it:

Here's his email verbatim:

As to the movie, “The Passion”, which opens today,the
articles in recent bulletins have been put there to
show the reaction against the movie, sight unseen,
which reminds us of the hatred of Christ that is still
very real in the world. Do not assume I have
automatically endorsed the movie. It has been a good
opportunity, with Lent upon us, for discussing the
Orthodox teaching on the Cross (see Feb. bulletins).

The articles also suggested that Gibson has gone
overboard with the violence, whereas the Gospels are
very reticent in that aspect. That's an important
point. And this points to a different emphasis on the
Cross in the West as compared to Orthodoxy and the
ancient Church. The focus of the West since the schism
is on the extreme suffering and the vicarious
sacrifice (Christ is punished instead of us).
Orthodoxy focuses, as did the early Church, on
Christ’s sacrifice as His triumphant victory for us
against sin, death and the devil. Yes, His suffering
is real and fierce, but already people are saying the
movie “shows how it was”. Well, then people and the
movie are assuming a lot, if that’s the case.

Remember it is still a movie. One might go see it
during Lent some time, but the first week of Lent we
belong in church. Orthodoxy is not a Sunday religion.

In the Church is the only way Christ’s Passion will
ever heal us of our passions. Not by watching a movie.
And bare in mind, the only genuine spiritual
“experience” one can have from seeing it, is the
desire to repent of one’s sins and live anew for
Christ and in obedience to Him and the Church. Every
other “spiritual experience” is emotion that, however
sincere and heartfelt, will not save in the long run,
unless we have genuine repentance. That’s asking a lot
of a movie. Let’s not expect a movie to fix us (It may
indeed shock and horrify us - not sure how good that
is for our souls either...). But only Christ and the
Church can accomplish genuine healing and repentance.

 

[countrymousenc]

the only genuine spiritual “experience” one can have from seeing it, is the
desire to repent of one’s sins and live anew for Christ and in obedience to Him and the Church.

I agree.

 

[countrymousenc]

Hey countrymousenc



I would agree totally. I dont think we will ever truly understand the proufound signifigance of the Passion and Ressuection of Christ.

Travis

We never will, and I'm glad you agree. I'm not sure you entirely got my point. I seem to remember that in your first or second post on this thread you said something about icons being "pretty pictures." I don't get that at all, because when I look, I mean really look, at icons, I find it difficult to keep my eyes on those faces for very long. I see triumph after suffering, but it's a sober, serious triumph. I see love and compassion, and devotion. It's at least as powerful as our western realism.

 

[MariaRegina]

http://www.kake.com/home/headlines/653662.html

Woman Collapses During Showing of "The Passion Of The Christ"
Wichita
KAKE News

This movie is not for the faint-hearted.